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Confused about Elite Visa.


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On 11/21/2019 at 1:42 PM, ukrules said:

Thailand Elite - Why is this happening? I read the above explaination and it doesn't add up.

 

There is a rogue senior immigration officer working at Chaeng Wattana who is doing this. They don't do it at the airport - this I know 100% based on personal experience.

 

Someone is lying here. I'm not sure who it is, it's either TE or the very high ranking senior immigration officer at Chaeng Wattana whic you implicate in his crimes.

 

I know this is making your life hard. Please private message me the immigration officers full name, rank and position and badge number and I will take it from here.

 

I know 100% that this man is breaking the computer crimes law if he is doing this and I want to see him arrested for his crimes.

 

I want to put a stop to this absolute mother<deleted>ing <deleted> xenophobic treatment of people who have paid very good money for this visa.

 

To the immigration officer who's doing this - I'm looking for you and I will eventually find who you are no matter what it takes, expect criminal charges

 

I wouldn't get too worked up the contents of the emails are probably a fairy tale.

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1 hour ago, jackdd said:

The Elite visa rules were set by the minister of interior, so if they want to change them they need to contact the minister of interior.

But when the ministry of interior wrote the rules they might have done this on purpose, so that it's in accordance with every other multiple entry visa, thus they might be reluctant to change them.

 

I wouldn't call it a loophole. That multiple entry visas in Thailand can be used in this way is probably been so forever, so they have known this beforehand and it was most likely not done accidentally.

Actually the Elite visa would be the smallest of all "lopholes".

An OA visa should be only for one year, but can be used for two, 100% more than the the supposed duration.

METV (not taking an extension into account) 8 instead of 6 months, 33% more.

Multiple entry non-immigrant 25%.

Elite visa a mere 20%.

It is a massive loophole!

 

They sold people 5 year membership, NOT not 6 year visa.

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8 hours ago, elviajero said:

Kicking up a fuss is only going to get it closed down quicker.

It would seem sensible to get immigration at the borders to learn to stamp this type of Visa in for as long as the Visa is valid... or one year whichever is the lesser. Complicated yes, but they are already being asked to do the same wrt O-A Visas and insurance policies. 

Foreigners having to go into jail, which is what detention centers are, and be labelled over-stayer, despite possessing a Valid Permit to Stay stamp is wrong!

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10 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It would seem sensible to get immigration at the borders to learn to stamp this type of Visa in for as long as the Visa is valid... or one year whichever is the lesser. Complicated yes, but they are already being asked to do the same wrt O-A Visas and insurance policies. 

What they should have done, when setting up the scheme, was allowed for a 5 year stay on entry (end of visa validity) with a Re-entry Permit.

 

People need to realise is that scheme members living in the country wasn’t the target market.
 

10 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Foreigners having to go into jail, which is what detention centers are, and be labelled over-stayer, despite possessing a Valid Permit to Stay stamp is wrong!

That’s not going to happen.

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7 hours ago, elviajero said:

It is a massive loophole!

 

They sold people 5 year membership, NOT not 6 year visa.

It's a 5 year visa, not a 6 year visa. Or would you call an OA visa a two year visa? Is an METV a 8 month visa?

 

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

It would seem sensible to get immigration at the borders to learn to stamp this type of Visa in for as long as the Visa is valid... or one year whichever is the lesser.

The ministerial order regarding the Elite visa says the people will be stamped in for a year, so there is nothing immigration itself can do about it.

Edited by jackdd
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1 minute ago, jackdd said:

The ministerial order regarding the Elite visa says the people will be stamped in for a year, so there is nothing immigration itself can do about it.

Then they should stand by that stamp and stop claiming people who have them are on over-stay!

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On 11/22/2019 at 4:42 AM, ukrules said:

Thailand Elite - Why is this happening? I read the above explaination and it doesn't add up.

 

There is a rogue senior immigration officer working at Chaeng Wattana who is doing this. They don't do it at the airport - this I know 100% based on personal experience.

 

Someone is lying here. I'm not sure who it is, it's either TE or the very high ranking senior immigration officer at Chaeng Wattana whic you implicate in his crimes.

 

I know this is making your life hard. Please private message me the immigration officers full name, rank and position and badge number and I will take it from here.

 

I know 100% that this man is breaking the computer crimes law if he is doing this and I want to see him arrested for his crimes.

 

I want to put a stop to this absolute mother<deleted>ing <deleted> xenophobic treatment of people who have paid very good money for this visa.

 

To the immigration officer who's doing this - I'm looking for you and I will eventually find who you are no matter what it takes, expect criminal charges

 

Don't get too upset, cobber, The contents of the email are all illogical and contradictory. As MeePaiMai stated at post 119, this email doesn't make sense. To state that a person was on overstay, had to leave and then return for a fresh Elite Visa contradicts previous rules about overstay issued by Thailand Elite.

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On 11/21/2019 at 3:00 PM, krey said:

We tried to negotiate with the immigration but they refused and the reason they gave us was that member should know well about his membership expiry date (which is the end of the Thailand Elite Visa).

so there you have it …..  the date at which is the Membership expiry date. 

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On 11/22/2019 at 4:42 AM, ukrules said:

Thailand Elite - Why is this happening? I read the above explaination and it doesn't add up.

 

There is a rogue senior immigration officer working at Chaeng Wattana who is doing this. They don't do it at the airport - this I know 100% based on personal experience.

 

Someone is lying here. I'm not sure who it is, it's either TE or the very high ranking senior immigration officer at Chaeng Wattana whic you implicate in his crimes.

 

I know this is making your life hard. Please private message me the immigration officers full name, rank and position and badge number and I will take it from here.

 

I know 100% that this man is breaking the computer crimes law if he is doing this and I want to see him arrested for his crimes.

 

I want to put a stop to this absolute mother<deleted>ing <deleted> xenophobic treatment of people who have paid very good money for this visa.

 

To the immigration officer who's doing this - I'm looking for you and I will eventually find who you are no matter what it takes, expect criminal charges

 

 

Immigration avoid this responsibility by shifting the responsibility on to the passport holder.

i.e. if someone is entering on a Visa Exempt Stamp but has been stamped in for 3 months, it would be their own responsibility to check this and have it corrected on arrival (time of stamping - always check the stamp in your passport).

 

In this example if someone were to stay longer than a month they would be on overstay, it would be their own fault regardless of the stamp. 

 

Thus: IF the agreement between Immigration and Thai Elite is a 5 year Visa, then your Visa expires on the date of expiry of your membership, it doesn't actually matter what stamp you have in your passport. Like it or not, immigration avoids responsibility of this matter (date stamp), we are each responsible for knowing our own visa status. 

 

 

Edited by richard_smith237
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4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Immigration avoid this responsibility by shifting the responsibility on to the passport holder.

i.e. if someone is entering on a Visa Exempt Stamp but has been stamped in for 3 months, it would be their own responsibility to check this and have it corrected on arrival (time of stamping - always check the stamp in your passport) - if someone were to stay longer than a month they would be on overstay, it would be their own fault regardless of the stamp.

Sad but true.  And in this case, ignorance of this offense is no defense.

Edited by MeePeeMai
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9 hours ago, jackdd said:

 

17 hours ago, elviajero said:

It is a massive loophole!

 

They sold people 5 year membership, NOT not 6 year visa.

It's a 5 year visa, not a 6 year visa. Or would you call an OA visa a two year visa? Is an METV a 8 month visa?

I call it a 5 year visa. No and No.
 

But you are buying 5 year membership.

 

9 hours ago, jackdd said:

The ministerial order regarding the Elite visa says the people will be stamped in for a year, so there is nothing immigration itself can do about it

Yes, for members of the scheme!

 

Immigration can, with cause, revoke any permit to stay!

 

Any prescribed stay for any visa/extension are maximums, not a right. E.g, a tourist could be stamped in for 7 days if the IO so chose.

Edited by elviajero
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9 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Then they should stand by that stamp and stop claiming people who have them are on over-stay!

Technically they could be.

 

It’s no different to when someone gets divorced. They are obliged to get their extension cancelled. When membership to the TE scheme ends clearly any permission to stay based on that membership should end.

 

As long as people are informed by TE of that fact — which is now happening — they can have no complaint.

 

People but membership, not a visa.

Edited by elviajero
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21 minutes ago, jackdd said:

For other (non Elite) entries this could theoretically be, i didn't see the official orders yet, but for the Elite visa this is definitely not the case.

http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/law/law2/%a402/%a402-2e-2556-a0005.htm

Point 3 says: When a person according to section 1 (this means a person with a valid membership) enters Thailand, the immigration official will allow the person to stay in Thailand for one year, every time, an unlimited number of times.

Nothing like "up to", it's always a year, that's fixed.

Yes, it’s granted on the basis that the person entering is a member, exactly the same as a permit being issued to a spouse while married. But if membership isn’t renewed, or the marriage ends, the permission to stay becomes void because the reason it was issued has ended.
 

You are sold a 5 year membership, not a 6 year visa.

 

I had several conversations with TE on this subject 5 years ago. They admitted to the loophole then, but have never indicated in anyway that a 5 year membership provided a visa giving a 6 year stay.

 

As is often the case in Thailand they have waited until the horse had bolted to act. But now they are putting it in writing PE visa holders do not have a leg to stand on.

 

The possibility of a 6th year was always only a possibility. People expecting a 6th year are only doing so because of forums like this. Show me anything in the TE marketing that indicates anything other than a 5 year membership with the benefit of a 5 year visa. Visa meaning entry or stay for 5 years. In the world outside TVF applicants would not expect anything more.

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According to the email circulating it seems to describe an immigration officer at Chaeng Wattana who went out of his way to make problems for and obstruct someone who was in the process of complying with the rules and renewing his membership and visa. Using his discretion as an immigration officer he then decided to make this guys life much harder than is required under the regulations. I believe only senior immigration officers have the authority to issue this visa, that there is one at Chaeng Wattana who is looking to screw us over if at all possible is a concern and in my opinion reason to avoid going to this immigration office.

 

The Immigration officers at the airport appear to have very limited knowledge about our TE membership status when we pass through their booths at the airport, all they see is the visa in the passport. They don't know if you're currently on an expired membership, merely have an expired 5 year visa and are awaiting a new visa insertion (if you have a 20 year membership this could apply) or if you've recently renewed but yet to have a new visa inserted, this was my situation when I left the country earlier this week.

 

I flew out of the country recently whilst in my 6th year, the only comment the immigration officer had on my way out of the country was 'You you can use the fast track channel if you want'.

 

To summarise my experience during my sixth year : I did two 90 day reports, renewed my TE membership and some time after renewing I left the country at a time convenient to me. My new visa was inserted on arrival at Suvarnabhumi airport after my trip.

 

I didn't receive the email others are speaking about at any point and they were very welcoming when I inquired about renewing the expired membership - I made it very clear that I was inside Thailand on my 6th year when I made the renewal application.

 

The renewal process was very streamlined compared to the initial application, instead of taking about 10 days like it did with the initial application back in 2014 it took just 2 to 3 days to be approved for the renewal.

 

Something else worth noting is that I emailed in the signed scans of all the required documents and they did not require me to physically mail in hard copies at all, that's another difference between the renewal process and the initial application.

 

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5 hours ago, steven100 said:

so there you have it …..  the date at which is the Membership expiry date. 

The section of the email that MeePaiMai refers to in his post is too unreal to be true,  so I call the whole email cow manure. 

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11 hours ago, elviajero said:

Technically they could be.

 

It’s no different to when someone gets divorced. They are obliged to get their extension cancelled. When membership to the TE scheme ends clearly any permission to stay based on that membership should end.

 

As long as people are informed by TE of that fact — which is now happening — they can have no complaint.

 

People but membership, not a visa.

There is a surety that the PE Visa will expire, they know the exact day, not really any surety someone will be getting divorced! So there is a appreciable difference. The capacity to stamp in for the duration of the P.E. Visa (or membership if you prefer)  is more equivalent to a Non-Imm_OA holder arriving and being stamped in for the duration of his insurance, not a full year. Perhaps Immigration should simply stamp O-A holders in for 12 months, even if the insurance is due to expire, and make a note to go hunt them down later. 

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11 hours ago, jacko45k said:

There is a surety that the PE Visa will expire, they know the exact day,

According to one of the posts I read on this forum the law / police order says that it's a 1 year stamp every time you enter on the PE visa. It's not a mistake, not by immigration anyway - they have to enforce the law and the law says 1 year per entry so there is no room for choice there.

 

There's a perfectly sane scenario as to why the 1 year stamp rule makes sense, lets say you're near to the end of your first 5 year visa as a 20 year member.

 

They only issue 5 year visas but you have a 20 year membership so you will be issued 4 x 5 year visas during your membership plus any transfers / partial 5 year visas which will move across passports at the time of the passport expiry.

 

When you enter into Thailand you will get a 1 year stamp, even if it's on the last day of your current visas validity, you would then contact TE and arrange for them to insert the next of your 5 year visas into the passport.

 

I suspect this is why it works the way it works.

 

Lets remember and this is the crux of it - back when TE was first introduced there was no 5 year membership, it was a lifetime membership for 1 million Baht which was then changed for new members to the 20 year option.

 

The shorter term and cheaper memberships with less 'services' are relatively new (6 years ago max) but the regulations appear to have been designed back in the day for long term lifetime and perhaps 20 year memberships.

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Just an update

So I went to a Visa Agency today in Chiang Mai trying to get an idea if this 6th year is possible.

I talked to the rep there about how I am getting back and forth answers on if I can stay past my expiry date on a visa if I have a yearly stamp that covers me.  I explained how some reps were saying I could, I explained that some Elite Members are on their 6th year and doing this.

 

She called Her Boss first - who confirmed what Thai Elite was saying that I can only stay up to the date of the visa expiry it does not matter what the yearly stamp date is.

 

she called Thai Elite Though I told her not to bother as I already knew what they were going to say, which was the exact same thing as her boss said.

 

She then called her immigration rep at Chiang Mai immigration and that rep also said that one could not stay past the expiry date on the visa, even if the yearly stamp goes past.

 

I am not fluent in Thai but I could understand a lot of the phone conversations and it seems like she was asking legitimate questions on the phone.  She says the people that are doing the 6th year might be slipping through due to the inexperience of the immigration officers in regards to the Thai Elite but officially you are considered overstay after your Thai Elite Visa Expires. Actually her first response was she was surprised they have not been charged:)

 

So none of this makes me confident in the 6th year.  As I started before I am only looking to get to the summer months so I can return back to Canada in the warmer months.  So unless something changes drastically where I can get some solid proof that I am allowed to stay I will stick to doing a couple of border runs.  I hear I can leave get 30 days, extend that 30 days, leave again get 30 days, extend 30 days and even do one more land border Mae Sai for one last 30 days if I need it. 

 

I want to believe I can stay  on the year stamp but besides some posts of people on here saying they are doing it I can't get anything official to prove it.  I also do eventually want to come back to Thailand perhaps on the Thai Elite once again and do not want to mess things up having a overstay tacked on my record.

 

I thank everyone on here that has supplied info and I will continue to monitor this post, perhaps there is something else I can do that others will suggest, but as of right now I am just not Trusting the whole process.

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23 hours ago, krey said:

I want to believe I can stay  on the year stamp but besides some posts of people on here saying they are doing it I can't get anything official to prove it.  I also do eventually want to come back to Thailand perhaps on the Thai Elite once again and do not want to mess things up having a overstay tacked on my record.

Well immigration at the airport don't seem to know or care about this membership issue, this is from experience. They seem to be treating things a little differently at airports compared to the down town immigration offices.

 

It's not an issue if you do a 90 day report in a provincial office while on the extra year, I've done two of them after visa expiry this year.

 

My visa expired in June, I entered in April and got a 1 year stamp.

 

I renewed my TE membership while on the extra year and still inside the country - there were no problems - in fact this renewal was 'expressed' by the looks of it.  I didn't even need to mail in the hard copies of the signed documents.

 

I left the country with no problem after being inside for about 7 months this time, 5 months of which were after the visa expired but before I made the renewal. The IO didn't know I had renewed my membership when I left the country, the new visa wasn't in my passport at this point.

 

As I do live here full time I've been planning on renewing this all along and transferred some money in and did the renewal in November.

 

Personally I deliberately avoided the immigration offices inside the country for getting my new visa issued as they seem to interpret the regulations very differently from the immigration officers who work in the airport - at the moment, and this is the problem - that could change at any time.

 

I guess anything is subject to change so who knows what will happen in the future, I've renewed my membership anyway so that's me sorted until the end of 2024.

 

Edited by ukrules
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