British Airways pilots ground planes in unprecedented 48-hour strike

[madmen]

55 minutes ago, ncc1701d said:

I like a lot of your posts on other topics, but I feel you are getting a lot of information from wrong sources here. Sorry for my lengthy post.

 

“so all the pilot has to do is rotate and follow the cross hairs”. While true, it’s not as straight forward as that.

Even after the TOGA switches are pushed, the aircraft can not take into consideration the conditions. Wind, rain, snow, rwy contamination, other aircraft. Engine failures on the ground or in the air. Windshear. Or any number of other things that are not necessarily emergencies - but if not dealt with correctly could certainly turn into one. So while you may have seen a video of a normal take off being performed and it looks so easy, there is a significant amount of things going through the pilots minds. Actions before V1, actions after V1. Under what conditions will I abort or continue. Under each scenario - what will my actions be if I have to evacuate - where will I evacuate? Will it be on the rwy or will I try and taxi off so the rwy is still usable? If it’s a high speed abort - what about the brakes catching on fire and the wheels plugs melting? what if there’s a tyre blow out versus a fire warning? Have I mentioned that we haven’t even gone through 80 kts yet? 

 

Once the autopilot is engaged, you still have to control the computer. It doesn’t just do everything. Negotiating with atc about climbing / descending, avoiding other aircraft or poor weather. If something goes wrong are you at a safe altitude for speed control with an engine failure or will have to descend? What are the closest airfields and are they suitable to make an emergency landing at? Is your destination weather ok? If it’s not what are your options? Do you have enough fuel to do what you want to do? If not, what are your new options? Continual fuel checks to make sure the aircraft isn’t leaking fuel. Coordinating with other aircraft about turbulence reports, diverting to avoid volcanic eruptions (a lot more frequent than you might think). If you depressurise - are you too heavy to clear the mountains / high terrain? Do you know where the high terrain is? Will you need to dump fuel in order to clear terrain it if an engine fails? Can you make it back on one engine or can you continue to a more suitable airfield? If you get a cargo fire that you can’t contain - are you going to ditch? Sick pax - can you divert to save their lives? China just decides to close their airspace as you are approaching their fir - what are you going to do? Where will you go? Being constantly up to date on ever changing procedures and rules. And now add to the mix fighting with management over ever decreasing conditions and the public perception that a monkey can do it. I’ve only listed some things off the top of my head. So I’d like to meet the strategically shaved monkey that can do any of that and as it stands there is no commercial airliner that can automatically do any of that.

 

The real pilot value is being continually so on top of things that the emergencies don’t surprise the pilots leading to a hull loss or loss of life. Sully didn’t just fluke that - he had run through that exact scenario at the airport and that runway and planned for it by himself. Years of training and preparation. And pilots - the good ones, will run those types of scenarios for every runway and every airport they go in and out of so that the worst thing a pax has to worry about is how long it will take you to get through immigration.  

I was being simplistic since its not an aviation forum .Of course you're correct but that's to much detail.SIDS and stars and approach plates take care of terrain and fuel is already calculated along with the route taken and alternates by dispatch, pilot  of course knows the exact procedure during engine out after vr and in jets its nearly always a circuit and back to the runway. cross checking fuel/position reports and keeping on top of weather is not difficult

 

Modern jets have mostly few seriuse emergency so its a pretty boring job. Your comprehensive checks probably apply even more so to GA . But yes I agree with everything you said and like I said a modern jet pilot true worth is  response when an issue does occur and can't train a monkey for that

 

All sully had to do was nail best glide speed ,its all that he could do but he had a huge landing area 

[ncc1701d]

5 minutes ago, madmen said:

I was being simplistic since its not an aviation forum .Of course you're correct but that's to much detail.SIDS and stars and approach plates take care of terrain and fuel is already calculated along with the route taken and alternates by dispatch, pilot  of course knows the exact procedure during engine out after vr and in jets its nearly always a circuit and back to the runway. cross checking fuel and keeping on top of weather is not difficult

 

Modern jets have mostly few seriuse emergency so its a pretty boring job. Your comprehensive checks probably apply even more so to GA . But yes I agree with everything you said

We are debating whether or not a monkey can do the job of a pilot, so I think the details are important. Sids and stars are like road maps, similar to driving a car following google (to be simplistic). Retail cars can’t just drive around where you want them to go - and aircraft are many many years behind that. I will be long retired before that ever happens. Pilots are often cleared below safe terrain levels (Manila is a example), whilst on a star. No monkey is going to query that with atc. So again, to say “those plates take care of terrain” Whilst true, does not reflect the level of knowledge required by the pilots to ensure you don’t fly into it. 

 

Fuel for route is easily calculated. Fuel for alternates is done for the destination in case the weather deteriorates means the aircraft can’t land there. Enroute diversions due to depressurization or engine failure are also calculated. But they are the easy decisions.

 

monitoring it easy. A monkey can monitor it. But what decisions are you going to make based on the weather? Take new York for example - only 3 of the 8 runways are autoland capable (and only 2 are CAT 3B certified). They will only have one of them going - so effectively down to 1 runway in use. The weather starts getting worse and worse. They have to reduce the number of aircraft coming in and space the landings out making everyone slow down / hold. Aircraft that are trying to take off can’t because they need to deice - so now even if you do land there is no where to park. So everyone trying to get into jfk is now looking at their alternates. Newark is so close to jfk that it is affected by the same weather. What about Boston? Sure, but now everyone wants to go to Boston and now it’s getting full and can’t take everyone. So do you divert early to Toronto (if it’s even available), not knowing if the weather is going to clear before you get there as well as de-icing all the existing aircraft - assuming that those airlines haven’t told the passengers to go to a hotel? The longer you keep going towards jfk the less fuel you will have to get to Toronto (which you weren’t given Toronto as an alternate because it’s too far away and cost too much fuel to carry that extra fuel). Virtually no help from your company, meaning pilots have to make the decisions. 

 

Engine failure (anywhere between V1 and MSA). Yes - pilots do have to know what to do. Something a monkey could not. A circuit back to the runway... some are, but a lot aren’t. You have terrain considerations. Cns, Bombay, Hong Kong, Milan, kansai - just off the top of my head, all have significant terrain and detailed engine out procedures and missed approach procedures. 

 

Anyway, it’s nice that you know of some of the procedures and terminology and things affecting modern commercial aviation. GA has a some similar and some very different operational management issues. It’s just a shame you consider these things easy or simple, further eroding what was once a great career.

[Pilotman]

There is so much nonsense on this post that it is laughable that so many people can be so ignorant about what goes on 'up front' on an airliner, on a day to day basis and yet trust their lives to the hands, skills and knowledge of the people occupying the front seats, without a second thought. Thank goodness most pilots have thick skins. 

[madmen]

Airline pilots are no different to any other profession. Its part of the job to know every scenario and becomes second nature after a decade or decades of training and with the level of automation a pilots job has never been easier

 

Now let's talk about the pilots flying the first " jumbo" jets or the 727 when pilot's were gods and infinitely more complicated than a 777 That I can fire up in simulator from cold and dark quickly and then spend the next 9 hours bored to death

 

pretty sure they launched  monkeys into space lol so anything is possible :-))))

 

let's not forget in many countries including the USA you can get a pilots licence before being eligible for a driving license and there is good reason for that, flying is not this incredibly complicated thing that requires a huge brain

[Pilotman]

16 hours ago, madmen said:

Airline pilots are no different to any other profession. Its part of the job to know every scenario and becomes second nature after a decade or decades of training and with the level of automation a pilots job has never been easier

 

Now let's talk about the pilots flying the first " jumbo" jets or the 727 when pilot's were gods and infinitely more complicated than a 777 That I can fire up in simulator from cold and dark quickly and then spend the next 9 hours bored to death

 

pretty sure they launched  monkeys into space lol so anything is possible :-))))

 

let's not forget in many countries including the USA you can get a pilots licence before being eligible for a driving license and there is good reason for that, flying is not this incredibly complicated thing that requires a huge brain

Nobody said that you need a PHd to be a qualified pilot.  Most people with decent motor and deductive skills can learn to fly a light GA aircraft competently, but you can no more learn to fly a complex aircraft like a large airliner,  using only a simulator, than you can learn to swim by watching a video of 'Finding Nemo' . It's not the button pushing and computer monitoring that marks out the professional airline pilot, it's the inherent and well practised aviation knowledge, airmanship and advanced motor skills that matter, especially when things go wrong, as they inevitably do at some point in a career. I agree that it is not complicated to pilot an aircraft per see, but the technology in airliners is complex and the flying skills brought to bare when technology fails is what matters.  

[Captain Monday]

On 9/13/2019 at 4:54 PM, ncc1701d said:

We are debating whether or not a monkey can do the job of a pilot, so I think the details are important. Sids and stars are like road maps, similar to driving a car following google (to be simplistic). Retail cars can’t just drive around where you want them to go - and aircraft are many many years behind that. I will be long retired before that ever happens. Pilots are often cleared below safe terrain levels (Manila is a example), whilst on a star. No monkey is going to query that with atc. So again, to say “those plates take care of terrain” Whilst true, does not reflect the level of knowledge required by the pilots to ensure you don’t fly into it. 

 

Fuel for route is easily calculated. Fuel for alternates is done for the destination in case the weather deteriorates means the aircraft can’t land there. Enroute diversions due to depressurization or engine failure are also calculated. But they are the easy decisions.

 

monitoring it easy. A monkey can monitor it. But what decisions are you going to make based on the weather? Take new York for example - only 3 of the 8 runways are autoland capable (and only 2 are CAT 3B certified). They will only have one of them going - so effectively down to 1 runway in use. The weather starts getting worse and worse. They have to reduce the number of aircraft coming in and space the landings out making everyone slow down / hold. Aircraft that are trying to take off can’t because they need to deice - so now even if you do land there is no where to park. So everyone trying to get into jfk is now looking at their alternates. Newark is so close to jfk that it is affected by the same weather. What about Boston? Sure, but now everyone wants to go to Boston and now it’s getting full and can’t take everyone. So do you divert early to Toronto (if it’s even available), not knowing if the weather is going to clear before you get there as well as de-icing all the existing aircraft - assuming that those airlines haven’t told the passengers to go to a hotel? The longer you keep going towards jfk the less fuel you will have to get to Toronto (which you weren’t given Toronto as an alternate because it’s too far away and cost too much fuel to carry that extra fuel). Virtually no help from your company, meaning pilots have to make the decisions. 

 

Engine failure (anywhere between V1 and MSA). Yes - pilots do have to know what to do. Something a monkey could not. A circuit back to the runway... some are, but a lot aren’t. You have terrain considerations. Cns, Bombay, Hong Kong, Milan, kansai - just off the top of my head, all have significant terrain and detailed engine out procedures and missed approach procedures. 

 

Anyway, it’s nice that you know of some of the procedures and terminology and things affecting modern commercial aviation. GA has a some similar and some very different operational management issues. It’s just a shame you consider these things easy or simple, further eroding what was once a great career.

Did you write the interview questions for Cathay Pacific?????

[RideJocky]

Once people go on strike, they’re no longer professionals, the become tradesmen.

 

Nothing wrong with being a tradesman, but you can’t expect to behave like a tradesman and then complain about not being treated as a professional.

 

[baboon]

8 hours ago, RideJocky said:

Once people go on strike, they’re no longer professionals, the become tradesmen.

 

Nothing wrong with being a tradesman, but you can’t expect to behave like a tradesman and then complain about not being treated as a professional.

 

Your point being?

[HuskerDo]

This was just a cover. They really just had a Groupon for half priced dental work. They'll be flying again asap. ???? 

[Bluespunk]

8 hours ago, RideJocky said:

Once people go on strike, they’re no longer professionals, the become tradesmen.

 

Nothing wrong with being a tradesman, but you can’t expect to behave like a tradesman and then complain about not being treated as a professional.

 

Not true at all, on any level. 

[tgw]

1- striking in an international passenger transportation business is meprisable

 

2- they could have instead delayed each flight for a random duration, this would have wreaked havoc not only for BA, but at least people would not be taken hostage and lose their money and their vacation or their business

 

3- it's about "sharing profits"... I believe sharing profits is only possible when sharing risks. Staff that wants to share profits should be assigned a portion of guarantee of BA debt.
Another way to achieve this would be to distribute stock in lieu of payment of overtime hours.

[RideJocky]

Not true at all, on any level. 

And you know this how?

You saying makes it so?

Any number of things the pilots could do to punish the company without punishing the passengers.

[RideJocky]

Your point being?

Exactly

[baboon]

8 hours ago, tgw said:

1- striking in an international passenger transportation business is meprisable

 

2- they could have instead delayed each flight for a random duration, this would have wreaked havoc not only for BA, but at least people would not be taken hostage and lose their money and their vacation or their business

 

3- it's about "sharing profits"... I believe sharing profits is only possible when sharing risks. Staff that wants to share profits should be assigned a portion of guarantee of BA debt.
Another way to achieve this would be to distribute stock in lieu of payment of overtime hours.

They are sharing risks. If nobody wants to fly with them, they get laid off. And why should they have to be assigned a portion of BA's debt? Are the management? No. They just declare the company bankrupt, collect a golden goodbye and move on elsewhere. 

[RideJocky]

Is not getting paid sharing profits?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Chomper Higgot]

17 hours ago, RideJocky said:

Once people go on strike, they’re no longer professionals, the become tradesmen.

 

Nothing wrong with being a tradesman, but you can’t expect to behave like a tradesman and then complain about not being treated as a professional.

 

Utter hogwash.

 

Pilots are workers paid for their labour, something they seem to understand while you clearly do not.

[RideJocky]

Utter hogwash.
 
Pilots are workers paid for their labour, something they seem to understand while you clearly do not.

Tradesmen are not workers paid for their labor?

[Bluespunk]

3 hours ago, RideJocky said:

 

 

And you know this how?

You saying makes it so?

Any number of things the pilots could do to punish the company without punishing the passengers.

 

 

Such as?

 

They tried negotiating and it didn’t work.

 

Now they are doing this.

 

They are exercising their options. 

 

As to how how do I know they are still professionals, because going on strike doesn’t suddenly make you an amateur. 

[Captain Monday]

9 hours ago, tgw said:

1- striking in an international passenger transportation business is meprisable

 

2- they could have instead delayed each flight for a random duration, this would have wreaked havoc not only for BA, but at least people would not be taken hostage and lose their money and their vacation or their business

 

3- it's about "sharing profits"... I believe sharing profits is only possible when sharing risks. Staff that wants to share profits should be assigned a portion of guarantee of BA debt.
Another way to achieve this would be to distribute stock in lieu of payment of overtime hours.

1- The pilots legal right to strike has been upheld by Court decision. BA management employ every possible legal means to gain the upper hand in industrial conflicts as well

 

2- I don't know but BA pilot union may have planed to strike selected sectors (CHAOS, creating havoc around our system),   Management responds by dropping the whole schedule. A Lockout. BALPA have a legal right to strike but individual Captains actually have no right to delay a departure and it would be unethical for any reason not related to SAFETY and thus not an acceptable tactic as they could face discipline or discharge later.

 

3- Tell that to executives around the world who float away on golden parachutes even the truly incompetent.

[tgw]

8 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

1- The pilots legal right to strike has been upheld by Court decision. BA management employ every possible legal means to gain the upper hand in industrial conflicts as well

 

2- I don't know but BA pilot union may have planed to strike selected sectors (CHAOS, creating havoc around our system),   Management responds by dropping the whole schedule. A Lockout. BALPA have a legal right to strike but individual Captains actually have no right to delay a departure and it would be unethical for any reason not related to SAFETY and thus not an acceptable tactic as they could face discipline or discharge later.

 

3- Tell that to executives around the world who float away on golden parachutes even the truly incompetent.

1- having the legal right to do something doesn't make it morally right. when people have no arguments they hide behind paragraphs and regulations.

 

2- that's very thin argumentation - I doubt captains delaying flights by 15 to 60 minutes would face any disciplinary actions if the delays were ordered by their trade union.

 

3- golden parachutes are pretty rare these days. in any case, they are a decision of the board, not the result of blackmail.

 

 

Anyway, the pilots should have made more efforts to get their voice heard without doing so much damage to the people who, in the end, are the ones paying their wages through their business.

 

Strikes are one of the reasons why I book on airlines like Air France, Lufthansa or BA only when absolutely necessary.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2019/09/09/british-airways-pilots-strike-causes-chaos-for-thousands-of-travelers/#6a92b9ef7be7

Quote

More than 200,000 passengers have been affected so far

what a disgrace!

 

huge damage to passengers and huge damage to the company. how much do people get incase of canceled flights? will the average compensation be around 1500 - 2000 USD or more ? how much will this cost BA in the end ?  or the end of BA?

 

actions like these are another good reason for outsourcing pilots internationally.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, tgw said:

1- having the legal right to do something doesn't make it morally right. when people have no arguments they hide behind paragraphs and regulations.

 

2- that's very thin argumentation - I doubt captains delaying flights by 15 to 60 minutes would face any disciplinary actions if the delays were ordered by their trade union.

 

3- golden parachutes are pretty rare these days. in any case, they are a decision of the board, not the result of blackmail.

 

 

Anyway, the pilots should have made more efforts to get their voice heard without doing so much damage to the people who, in the end, are the ones paying their wages through their business.

 

Strikes are one of the reasons why I book on airlines like Air France, Lufthansa or BA only when absolutely necessary.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2019/09/09/british-airways-pilots-strike-causes-chaos-for-thousands-of-travelers/#6a92b9ef7be7

what a disgrace!

 

huge damage to passengers and huge damage to the company. how much do people get incase of canceled flights? will the average compensation be around 1500 - 2000 USD or more ? how much will this cost BA in the end ?  or the end of BA?

 

actions like these are another good reason for outsourcing pilots internationally.

 

And of course the damage was done by the pilots, BA’s management had no part in any of it.

 

 

[RideJocky]

And of course the damage was done by the pilots, BA’s management had no part in any of it.
 
 

Thank you.

[tgw]

21 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And of course the damage was done by the pilots, BA’s management had no part in any of it.

 

pay a million or we kill the hostage!

555

 

no, please, it's not the management that killed the hostage when the kidnappers had the option to cut off a toe instead to show they were serious.

 

transforming into a total mess for several days the lives of 200.000 people and probably much more - people who are not only totally uninvolved in the pilots' pay dispute but are also the source of the pilots' livelihood - is vile.

 

among those people are probably many who saved up for a year or more for a holiday and other people who absolutely needed to get to a meeting somewhere to pay their bills.
I don't say the pilots are wrong to demand more pay, I say hurting innocent people is wrong.

[baboon]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And of course the damage was done by the pilots, BA’s management had no part in any of it.

 

 

It makes you wonder: How many posters on here condemning strikes were first in the queue to actively demand that management in their own fields of work ensure their own pay and conditions were set at an absolute minimum and never mind what they (the management) decided to pay themselves?

Let me guess. Not one. And yet they lash out at other workers in other industries. Why?

[sanemax]

On 9/8/2019 at 8:44 PM, webfact said:

BALPA has said British Airways (BA) should share more of its profits with its pilots. BA has said the strike action is unjustifiable as its pay offer was fair.

As long as you would be Willing to work for no moNey , when BA makes  A Loss

[baboon]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

As long as you would be Willing to work for no moNey , when BA makes  A Loss

Will the management? 

[tgw]

.

[tgw]

18 minutes ago, baboon said:

It makes you wonder: How many posters on here condemning strikes were first in the queue to actively demand that management in their own fields of work ensure their own pay and conditions were set at an absolute minimum and never mind what they (the management) decided to pay themselves?

Let me guess. Not one. And yet they lash out at other workers in other industries. Why?

it's not about being wrong on demanding more pay, it's about the method.

[sanemax]

12 hours ago, baboon said:

Will the management? 

Yes

[baboon]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

Yes

Rubbish.