U.S. doctors' group says just stop vaping as deaths, illnesses rise

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

No, it could never be considered healthy because imo it irritates the airways, and contains nicotine which is a narcotic.

 

But that's a long way from declaring it unhealthy, unsafe, or whatever.  It won't cause cancer or heart problems per se.

Agree with you. I would guess BTW it is approved in the UK as it is seen as less damaging than cigarette smoking, therefor a viable option for people to quit smoking.

5 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

No. Of course not. Not sure how you made that leap?

 

Just highlighting the fact that cigarettes remain unbanned in the U.S., even though they appear to be a vastly larger health crisis.

 

I have no horse in this race, just find it odd that in the space of a week or so we hear reports of vaping issues, and wham, they're banned.

 

 

 

 

And also agree with you. I made that leap because someone gave the impression it was not unhealthy, as he was comparing it to smoking.

Regarding cigarettes not being banned, agree that looking at health risks they should be. However this has started a long, long time ago, at the moment the attempts taken are meant to stop new smokers. If introduced now cigarettes would probably nowhere in the western world be allowed.

[ThomasThBKK]

Must be weak americans, no one ever in any other part of the world died in 15 years of vaping.

 

Gods natural selection - i guess.

 

It's really too stupid to even discuss it further, the same old fart Bloomberg who hates Bitcoin also hates vaping, oh surprise, he's massively invested in robbing the US citizens the traditional way.

[ThomasThBKK]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Agree with you. I would guess BTW it is approved in the UK as it is seen as less damaging than cigarette smoking, therefor a viable option for people to quit smoking.

And also agree with you. I made that leap because someone gave the impression it was not unhealthy, as he was comparing it to smoking.

Regarding cigarettes not being banned, agree that looking at health risks they should be. However this has started a long, long time ago, at the moment the attempts taken are meant to stop new smokers. If introduced now cigarettes would probably nowhere in the western world be allowed.

That's why IQOS heating devices from Philip Morris just got approved? 

https://www.ft.com/content/574bbd32-6b71-11e9-a9a5-351eeaef6d84

 

 

They lose out on massive tax revenue if people vape due to the Master Settlement Agreement, the MSA says that  for every cigarette sold x amount of money goes to the state and in RETURN PEOPLE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SUE CIGARETTE COMPANIES: https://www.publichealthlawcenter.org/topics/commercial-tobacco-control/tobacco-control-litigation/master-settlement-agreement

 

Quote

According to A State-by-State Look at the 1998 Tobacco Settlement 19 Years Later, states will collect $27.5 billion from the MSA and taxes in Fiscal Year 2018, but will spend less than 3 percent of it on programs to prevent kids from smoking and help smokers quit.

 

This is government protected theft and gives tobacco companies the green light on damaging millions of people.

[faraday]

Don't have much to add, but as MommyB says, they are being sold in some UK hospitals.  Ejuice is only sold in 10ml bottles in blighty; it suggests they are more cautious..?

 

 

 

 

 

[faraday]

This is interesting:

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/wisconsin/2019/09/10/wisconsin-man-accused-making-illegal-vaping-cartridges/2278325001/

[mommysboy]

18 hours ago, stevenl said:

Agree with you. I would guess BTW it is approved in the UK as it is seen as less damaging than cigarette smoking, therefor a viable option for people to quit smoking.

And also agree with you. I made that leap because someone gave the impression it was not unhealthy, as he was comparing it to smoking.

Regarding cigarettes not being banned, agree that looking at health risks they should be. However this has started a long, long time ago, at the moment the attempts taken are meant to stop new smokers. If introduced now cigarettes would probably nowhere in the western world be allowed.

 

Comparisons with smoking are important because the whole point is about replacing smoking with something that is hopefully harm reducing.  At least 95% of current vapers are people who are former smokers. The over-riding contention which appears to be supported by fact is that whilst smoking cigarettes can and does cause cancer and heart disease, vaping doesn't when done properly.  Thus, it has enormous potential to reduce premature death in smokers.  Indeed, it is to everyone's benefit because vaping does not markedly change ambient air conditions, except for nicotine at low levels.

 

Although claims were made about cigarettes being safe 60-100 years ago, these did not have the benefit of the scientific analysis available today.  Nowadays, scientists can minutely examine any gas or liquid and accurately detect content, and compare that with a whole array of charts which have already determined what are safe levels, at work, in the factory, and at home.

 

But in comparison there is the danger of conflation- which for this example might be described as grafting the problems of smoking on to vaping.  Thus, people just look at it and assume danger. And if that belief is so strong, any indication supporting it is seized upon without proper investigation.  Thus we have the situation in the USA where a contaminated product that isn't even vape juice is used to confirm that vaping (as we know it) is harmful, and even dangerous.

 

It also ought to be acknowledged that whilst in yesteryear claims about safety were being made by the tobacco companies, these days they are being made by respected scientific bodies.

 

 

[BestB]

 

[stevenl]

11 hours ago, BestB said:

 

Apparently he will not end it, he is backpedaling on his announced ban.

[Tony125]

On 9/12/2019 at 9:02 AM, mommysboy said:

I really feel the USA is not ready for e-cigs and it's probably for the best, as it is for Thailand.

 

USA seems to have a problem with reasonable regulation.  

 

 

 

 

New York bans flavored e cigs

https://www.yahoo.com/news/vaping-deaths-york-bans-flavoured-115543876.html

[observer90210]

On this one, I entirely support Thailand in banning these killer items, despite the fact that the ban is not on health issues but rather for fiscal resons

[ukrules]

It's well known that inhaling oil vapour causes a type of pneumonia, it's nothing new.

 

What's new is people vaping oils, they really shouldn't do that as it causes 'lipoid pneumonia' (google it).

 

[BestB]

1 hour ago, Tony125 said:

New York bans flavored e cigs

https://www.yahoo.com/news/vaping-deaths-york-bans-flavoured-115543876.html

Great thinking , so will have tobacco flavouring and that of course would not push kids into smoking 

[BestB]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

It's well known that inhaling oil vapour causes a type of pneumonia, it's nothing new.

 

What's new is people vaping oils, they really shouldn't do that as it causes 'lipoid pneumonia' (google it).

 

Well that’s weird. Million of vapers including myself and no pneumonia ? And the only ones getting it are people in US????

[Credo]

43 minutes ago, BestB said:

Well that’s weird. Million of vapers including myself and no pneumonia ? And the only ones getting it are people in US????

Not necessarily.   It's only being reported in the US.   

 

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, BestB said:

Well that’s weird. Million of vapers including myself and no pneumonia ? And the only ones getting it are people in US????

It's not weird, the 'juice' that goes into vapes doesn't contain oil (unless you add it), if it does then it's the distilled kind which doesn't contain any lipids.

 

There's been a lot of reporting about people adding cannabis oil into the liquids so they can get high, do you think they removed the lipids from the oil before mixing them and vaping them?

 

Of couse they didn't, this is why people are getting ill and sometimes dying. They're poisoning themselves.

[stevenl]

6 hours ago, BestB said:

Well that’s weird. Million of vapers including myself and no pneumonia ? And the only ones getting it are people in US????

Yes, and million of smokers without lung cancer.

 

Also reports from the Netherlands, so I'm presuming from other countries as well.

[DrTuner]

12 hours ago, ukrules said:

It's not weird, the 'juice' that goes into vapes doesn't contain oil (unless you add it), if it does then it's the distilled kind which doesn't contain any lipids.

 

There's been a lot of reporting about people adding cannabis oil into the liquids so they can get high, do you think they removed the lipids from the oil before mixing them and vaping them?

 

Of couse they didn't, this is why people are getting ill and sometimes dying. They're poisoning themselves.

I think this was the first post in TVF describing the most probable cause of the problems. And makes sense, many would try to hide the fact they added THC containing oils, as it might be illegal in their state or they just don't want to be labeled as drug users.

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

Yes, and million of smokers without lung cancer.

 

Also reports from the Netherlands, so I'm presuming from other countries as well.

Reports of vaping problems in Netherlands.  Can you provide link to that one- I tried google.

 

Mind you, contamination could happen anywhere of course.

 

Bates (of Ash UK) argued that authorities should be delivering more targeted warnings about unregulated products. Instead, he said the U.S. medical establishment is creating one of the “darkest episodes in American public health ... They have lost all their moorings with evidence and good practice.”

 

 

I rather think the same criticism could be aimed at some TVF posters.

[mommysboy]

Vaping Bad: Were two brothers from Wisconsin the Walter Whites of THC oils?

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/vaping-deaths-cause-thc-oils-coma-black-market-drug-wisconsin-huffhines-brothers-a9106841.html

 

As many of us said all along, it's dodgy contaminated THC oils.

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Reports of vaping problems in Netherlands.  Can you provide link to that one- I tried google.

 

Mind you, contamination could happen anywhere of course.

 

Bates (of Ash UK) argued that authorities should be delivering more targeted warnings about unregulated products. Instead, he said the U.S. medical establishment is creating one of the “darkest episodes in American public health ... They have lost all their moorings with evidence and good practice.”

 

 

I rather think the same criticism could be aimed at some TVF posters.

In Dutch, https://www.ad.nl:

 

First line, Google translate: People in the Netherlands also have ailments due to the presumed use of the electronic cigarette.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

In Dutch, https://www.ad.nl:

 

First line, Google translate: People in the Netherlands also have ailments due to the presumed use of the electronic cigarette.

Yes it's here: https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/ook-in-nederland-klachten-door-e-sigaret~a9ebfa22/?referrer=https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1122644-us-doctors-group-says-just-stop-vaping-as-deaths-illnesses-rise/page/4/?tab=comments

 

It could be anything including a legacy from smoking.  Vaping done correctly just does not cause such dramatic problems.

 

The report is frustratingly short on detail.

 

The thing is just because someone vapes it does not mean every respiratory problem they have is down to vaping. 

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Yes it's here: https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/ook-in-nederland-klachten-door-e-sigaret~a9ebfa22/?referrer=https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1122644-us-doctors-group-says-just-stop-vaping-as-deaths-illnesses-rise/page/4/?tab=comments

 

It could be anything including a legacy from smoking.  Vaping just does not cause such dramatic problems.

Yes, that's the link I gave. Why you feel the need to give it again I don't understand.

It seems you also disagree with the article, some biased opinion on your side?

[DrTuner]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The thing is just because someone vapes it does not mean every respiratory problem they have is down to vaping. 

It is when you're trying to drive home an agenda, like a personal phobia or commercial interests.

[mommysboy]

29 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Yes, that's the link I gave. Why you feel the need to give it again I don't understand.

It seems you also disagree with the article, some biased opinion on your side?

I thought it was translated version as most on the forum are English speakers.

 

I don't disagree with what the article says, but it is very short on information.

 

What you have here is mere association.  What we do know is that he is at least middle aged and something prompted him to finally take up vaping.  Shortly after his symptoms started, so he was possibly already on the verge of illness.

 

I think also surely 1 in a million (at least) will have a severe reaction.  This happens with just about everything.

 

I guess I am biased yes.  I vaped and it was great, and I can't believe it has any detractors who are not merely bad actors.

 

But I am not so biased. For instance, I can see a good case for banning crazy flavours, because these attract kids.

 

All the mainstream, real-life evidence points to vaping being safe (in the normal sense we use), even healthy for some with COPD, and ulcerative colitis.

 

Check out Martin Dockrell's interview on BBC Newsnight radio podcast 16.9.  Here he explains the concept of bio markers and explains how those of smokers differ markedly from non-smokers, whereas those of vapers are 99.5% the same as non smokers.

 

By the way, have you ever smoked or vaped?

 

 

 

 

The picture is of a vape shop in an NHS hospital (UK).

 

The video compares the amount of muck in cigarettes vs vape.

[stevenl]

19 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I thought it was translated version as most on the forum are English speakers.

 

I don't disagree with what the article says, but it is very short on information.

 

What you have here is mere association.  What we do know is that he is at least middle aged and something prompted him to finally take up vaping.  Shortly after his symptoms started, so he was possibly already on the verge of illness.

 

I think also surely 1 in a million (at least) will have a severe reaction.  This happens with just about everything.

 

I guess I am biased yes.  I vaped and it was great, and I can't believe it has any detractors who are not merely bad actors.

 

But I am not so biased. For instance, I can see a good case for banning crazy flavours, because these attract kids.

 

All the mainstream, real-life evidence points to vaping being safe (in the normal sense we use), even healthy for some with COPD, and ulcerative colitis.

 

Check out Martin Dockrell's interview on BBC Newsnight radio podcast 16.9.  Here he explains the concept of bio markers and explains how those of smokers differ markedly from non-smokers, whereas those of vapers are 99.5% the same as non smokers.

 

By the way, have you ever smoked or vaped?

 

 

 

 

The picture is of a vape shop in an NHS hospital (UK).

 

The video compares the amount of muck in cigarettes vs vape.

Sounds like you did not read the article very well. You talk about one, but there are 3 reports.

 

Sorry, disagree, your posts are as biased as they come.

 

I am a former smoker, gave up 20 years ago. Also have done many sisha's. I see vaping as possible good to quit cigarettes, although I think mainly the motivation has to come from within, making vaping superfluous. I do agree with you that the present attraction to youth is doing vaping much harm.

[mommysboy]

29 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Sounds like you did not read the article very well. You talk about one, but there are 3 reports.

 

Sorry, disagree, your posts are as biased as they come.

 

I am a former smoker, gave up 20 years ago. Also have done many sisha's. I see vaping as possible good to quit cigarettes, although I think mainly the motivation has to come from within, making vaping superfluous. I do agree with you that the present attraction to youth is doing vaping much harm.

 

There wasn't any information given about the other two!

 

I am biased yes- I said that.  I had such a beneficial experience from it as I mentioned, and the country where I come from has produced so much scientific evidence in its favour.  For now, I neither smoke or vape.

 

You seem pretty convinced it has some harm, but only on a hunch!

 

What does unsettle me a touch is the amount of heavy metals in the liquids, and the acetals, and aldehydes.  But it does seem that these are generally much lower than conventional cigarettes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stevenl]

25 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

There wasn't any information given about the other two!

 

I am biased yes- I said that.  I had such a beneficial experience from it as I mentioned, and the country where I come from has produced so much scientific evidence in its favour.  For now, I neither smoke or vape.

 

You seem pretty convinced it has some harm, but only on a hunch!

 

What does unsettle me a touch is the amount of heavy metals in the liquids, and the acetals, and aldehydes.  But it does seem that these are generally much lower than conventional cigarettes.

You asked for other reports than from the US, I gave one, there must be more.

 

I'm convinced it is less unhealthy than conventional cigarettes.

 

And yes, a hunch, but it can not be healthy to get all that in your lungs and everywhere it travels through.

[mommysboy]

34 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You asked for other reports than from the US, I gave one, there must be more.

 

I'm convinced it is less unhealthy than conventional cigarettes.

 

And yes, a hunch, but it can not be healthy to get all that in your lungs and everywhere it travels through.

No, it wasn't me, you are confusing me with another poster.

 

This outbreak in the USA (and nowhere else) is not due to some general health issue connected to vaping, but the direct result of contamination with a product which isn't even a vape juice (it's an oil). That's why many of us are crying foul because it's a complete mis-representation.  Can you see that?

 

The issues you cite in the Netherlands are something else- perhaps associations, unconnected issues, misuse of the product, or rare allergy to vape juice.  I think there have been similar incidents in the UK (47 I think).  But you'd expect these things among millions of users.  It happens with a whole range of products from soap to peanuts.

 

If you had ever tried vaping, I think you would immediately realize that it is a very different thing from smoking or shisha.  Did you look at the video I posted?  You will see that it is a much cleaner process than you currently think.

 

 

[stevenl]

58 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

No, it wasn't me, you are confusing me with another poster.

 

This outbreak in the USA (and nowhere else) is not due to some general health issue connected to vaping, but the direct result of contamination with a product which isn't even a vape juice (it's an oil). That's why many of us are crying foul because it's a complete mis-representation.  Can you see that?

 

The issues you cite in the Netherlands are something else- perhaps associations, unconnected issues, misuse of the product, or rare allergy to vape juice.  I think there have been similar incidents in the UK (47 I think).  But you'd expect these things among millions of users.  It happens with a whole range of products from soap to peanuts.

 

If you had ever tried vaping, I think you would immediately realize that it is a very different thing from smoking or shisha.  Did you look at the video I posted?  You will see that it is a much cleaner process than you currently think.

 

 

I know what it is. I also realise that capers are inhaling things into their lungs that should not be there.

 

Please don't project your thought process on my thinking.

[Berkshire]

On 9/11/2019 at 8:38 AM, mommysboy said:

E-cigs when used correctly are a great harm reduction tool according to Public Health England (PHE), and may even be beneficial to some people with serious respiratory complaints.

 

Weird that one country (UK) plays it one way seemingly to great benefit, while the USA can't help but turn it in to a crock of....

 

The spooky thing is one or the other health authority in either country is going to be wrong, and will be responsible for hundreds of thousands of needless casualties, either by recommending vaping, or by cautioning against it.  I think the smart money is on the UK being right!

 

 

Interesting question, regarding the UK and the USA.  This article tries to answer, although it's not that simple....

 

[But in the UK, there doesn't appear to be an outbreak of vaping-related sickness. Neither has vaping's popularity soared among young people who never smoked. Rather, e-cigarettes have been embraced mostly as a way for adults to quit combustible cigarettes. Indeed, health authorities in the UK stand by their support for e-cigarettes as a cessation tool.]

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/17/health/vaping-us-uk-e-cigarette-differences-intl/index.html