Illegal short term Rentals in Pattaya Condos

[LuciusCornelius]

8 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

Yes, a huge moutain

one of the issue is most of the owners (Or at least as you stated the most organized or/and the most

influent) have 0 interest to stop this system, and the comittee goes always with the wind, they do not

want problems with the most organized/influents people, particulary if they are thai people.

 

My objective is to get a group of co-owners together and help organise them into a coherent force of people who are opposed to the ST rental system in the building.  I think this is achievable.  Yes, we are definitely up against some Thai (as well as foreign co-owners) who are obviously motivated.  I don't think any of them are more motivated than I am though.  

[LuciusCornelius]

3 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

So it may be the right time to sale

sooner or later the housing bubble will explode

it's just a matter of time

It's been 4.5 years since I signed the Sales purchase agreement.  However, it has only been 3 years since the property was transferred.  I have to wait 5 years before selling to avoid Capital gains taxes.  Therefore, another 2 years.  

 

The property bubble is more pronounced in places like the Base and the the new one Sansiri are building next to it - the Edge? Prices for the latter are frankly almost off the scale.  Nevertheless, in property hoarding cultures like Thailand, price levels can remain elevated and distorted for sustained periods and corrections can be shallower than anticipated.  This is especially the case when you have external (Chinese) money flows into the property sector.  Hong Kong is perhaps the clearest example of that.  I sold my property there 3 years ago saying the prices were insane and could not go any higher.  They did.  Timing such things is impossible for most people and certainly for me.  

[thaitero]

I think the best approach would be when everyone if not happy but can accept..
30 days rentals are legal and kind of short time also. It is also time what many tourists can stay without visa.

So organized onsite visible  rental managment office giving good services those co-owners and who want rental income and tenants who want to stay.
Unixx has this kind of rental managment office nowdays onsite?

[watcharacters]

41 minutes ago, LuciusCornelius said:

Certainly, having the weight of that industry behind the drive to enforce the law on ST rentals would be a massive boon.

 

However, I am not so pessimistic in my outlook.  I think that if we can assemble a core group of Co-owners in the building that are willing to act against this then the attitude of the committee may change.  In addition, there is always the possibility that if enough reports are made to the authorities about a single place then finally they will respond to the issue.  At the end of the day, there is also the possibility of bringing a  civil suit against at least some of the people involved.  

 

I can but try.  I understand it's a mountain to climb. 

 

I applaud you for fighting for your rights.

[LuciusCornelius]

1 minute ago, thaitero said:

I think the best approach would be when everyone if not happy but can accept..
30 days rentals are legal and kind of short time also. It is also time what many tourists can stay without visa.

So organized onsite visible  rental managment office giving good services those co-owners and who want rental income and tenants who want to stay.
Unixx has this kind of rental managment office nowdays onsite?

The ST rental crowd would freak if they were limited to 30 day minimum rental periods for their properties.  90% or more of their income stream would evaporate.  Most tourists do not stay 30 days in Pattaya.  Not even close. I would say under a week is the usual stay, for the people going to Unixx.  That is based upon observations from my tenants. It is not scientific. 

 

There is a company that offers ST serviced apartments in Unixx on Airbnb.  Their minimum rent period is 30 days.  They seem to get great reviews.  I have no problem with that business.  It is legal and appears to be responsibly run.  Looking at their booking availability, I do not think there is scope for all co-owners to move into rentals with a 30 day minimum.  Occupancy rates would plummet in my opinion.  Long term rentals of 6-12 months would be more viable.  

[tomazbodner]

On 9/14/2019 at 7:18 PM, champers said:

Some condo managements are keener to keep out short-term renters than others; Centric Sea on Pattaya 2nd Road spring to mind. We can all take a reasonable guess why other managements are more lax. The OP has the right idea of seeking out support from other owners. Good luck.

I was in Centric Sea when the police went in to drag the short-term renter to police station to fine. 10,000 baht he claimed. And they didn't let him back in. The reception ladies in building A look like Gestapo until they get to know you after which they completely change their tone and are the nicest people around. I'm not living there but booked (over Airbnb of all places) a long term rental for family there. It is certainly very well run and you may wish to ask your building management to copy whatever Centric is doing.

[LuciusCornelius]

11 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

I was in Centric Sea when the police went in to drag the short-term renter to police station to fine. 10,000 baht he claimed. And they didn't let him back in. The reception ladies in building A look like Gestapo until they get to know you after which they completely change their tone and are the nicest people around. I'm not living there but booked (over Airbnb of all places) a long term rental for family there. It is certainly very well run and you may wish to ask your building management to copy whatever Centric is doing.

I am not sure what the ST renter would have been charged with.  From what I understand, any criminality associated with Short term rentals is squarely on the shoulders of the co-owners renting out the units, rather than the people who book them on Airbnb. At least this is the case for the Hotel Act, foreign business act and tax law.  In terms of immigration offences or trespass, I frankly don't know.  Anyway, I wish admin in Unixx would take an approach akin to that in Centric Sea.  I may stop by there and try to ask them what they did to get on top of the situation. Thanks for the input. 

[4675636b596f75]

On 9/18/2019 at 9:43 AM, Henryford said:

One option yourself would be to look up on AirBnB which condos are offering stays under 1 month and report them to Immigration.

Why would one report this to "immigration?"
 

[LuciusCornelius]

1 minute ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

Why would one report this to "immigration?"
 

I'm not sure since it was not my suggestion.  However, I can think of one reason.  If you are certain that ST renters are staying in a condo and the host has not registered them using form TM30 with the immigration authorities, then immigration are more likely to act than some other departments.  Added to this the penalties for immigration offences are believed by some to be stiffer.  There is a provision in the 1979 immigration act that some condo admin teams have suggested could result in a 100K baht fine or 10 year prison term for "illegally bringing foreigners into the Kingdom".  I think they are dreaming, in thinking this applies to ST Airbnb hosts.  It's a law against people smuggling and in my view it is ludicrous to apply it to the ST rental situation.  Actually, the worst immigration would do is give a 1600-200 Baht fine for the failure to register the TM30 within 24 hours.  

[Skallywag]

32 minutes ago, LuciusCornelius said:

Anyway, I wish admin in Unixx would take an approach akin to that in Centric Sea.  I may stop by there and try to ask them what they did to get on top of the situation. Thanks for the input. 

I was told Centric has "someone" at the entrance(s),  Security? who checks your passport.  

If you are on a tourist visa and do not have 30 days left on your stay, you are simply not let in and told to leave. 

Shinawatra built and owns Centric Sea BTW  

 

[Mavideol]

On 9/16/2019 at 12:55 PM, LuciusCornelius said:

Does anyone know which government agencies are the best ones to complain to about this situation? Will going to the police be worthwhile? I heard In Bangkok and HuaHin they did actually prosecute several cases and one condo in Bangkok was raided. 

try to contact immigration, usually they like this type of tips, good luck

[Destiny1990]

2 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

 

I moved from The Base it is the busiest hotel in town.

100ś of people everyday checking in all being assisted by security and management.

Moved to a super quiet place in north much much happier.

Good luck, but nothing is ever going to be done about it in Pattaya.

PS:  Sure glad I rented.

No smoke pollution issues in CM for you? You will be missed in Soi Diana.

[4675636b596f75]

Just now, Destiny1990 said:

No smoke pollution issues in CM for you?

Buckle up bucko, your pollution is coming soon.

[LuciusCornelius]

27 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

try to contact immigration, usually they like this type of tips, good luck

The problem here being that I do not actually know if the co-owner has registered the guests or not using the TM30 form.  From my interaction with various hosts, they all say they will do this for me by post or online if I rent their condo.  It is easy to do and it lets them dodge a massive bullet.  I don't want to go to immigration and make a false allegation which is later disproven.  Thailand is not the place to do that. That is why I prefer to act on the Hotel Act violation.  The hotel register is public.  Unixx holds no license.  Firmer ground. 

[champers]

1 hour ago, tomazbodner said:

I was in Centric Sea when the police went in to drag the short-term renter to police station to fine. 10,000 baht he claimed. And they didn't let him back in. The reception ladies in building A look like Gestapo until they get to know you after which they completely change their tone and are the nicest people around. I'm not living there but booked (over Airbnb of all places) a long term rental for family there. It is certainly very well run and you may wish to ask your building management to copy whatever Centric is doing.

A tad off-topic but maybe of interest is the fact that a Chinese buyer has bought a swathe of land between Centric Sea and 2nd Rd Soi 5 where the police lodgings are. This land will be to build a condo complex aimed at the Chinese market. Some of the bought land was the site of a short lived Chinese beer garden (Chinese businesses fail too!). No construction will start for 6 years because 7/11 have a lucrative shop opposite the Hard Rock hotel and their lease has 6 years left. 

An interesting piece of forward planning, methinks.

[4675636b596f75]

How is a short-term rental determined to be illegal?  Someone explain the logic of this statement.

[bkk6060]

43 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

I was told Centric has "someone" at the entrance(s),  Security? who checks your passport.  

If you are on a tourist visa and do not have 30 days left on your stay, you are simply not let in and told to leave. 

Shinawatra built and owns Centric Sea BTW  

 

I would say what you are told is false.

I ride past there a couple times a day and there are always several people out front with suitcases looks like they are waiting to check in.

 

But, to confirm I just checked all the major hotel sites including AbnB and can book 2 or 3 days no problem many rooms available Centric.

 

So, I would say Centric is doing nothing as is The Base and Unixx.

 

Several laws potentially broken:

No report to immigration of resident

ST rental

No taxes being paid on income.

There is probably something else.

 

 

[bkk6060]

30 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

No smoke pollution issues in CM for you? You will be missed in Soi Diana.

I still have a place in north Pattaya. But, Soi Chiaypoon is my spot.

2 places CM and Pats.  

The best of both worlds. ????

 

PS: let me know if you want to meet at the mall someday.

[LuciusCornelius]

10 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

How is a short-term rental determined to be illegal?  Someone explain the logic of this statement.

Primarily, it is illegal under the Hotel Act (2004) as amended (2016) and as stated categorically in two Judgments by the provincial high court of HuaHin in early 2018. This sets legal precedent for the rest of Thailand - unless overturned by the supreme court.  The case was not appealed, so that will not happen.  

 

It is also illegal under the condominium act to run a commercial business in a condo.

 

For foreigners to rent their condo on a daily basis, violates the Foreign business act and also immigration regulations related to the need to have a work visa for such purposes.

 

 There may or may not be other common violations related to immigration registration and tax payment.  The latter is pretty certain, as it is hard to pay taxes on illegally derived income.  Technically, the proceeds of crime are confiscate.  

 

 

[Destiny1990]

2 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I still have a place in north Pattaya. But, Soi Chiaypoon is my spot.

2 places CM and Pats.  

The best of both worlds. ????

Living in 2 cities  sounds like a nightmare  TM30 wise.

So in CM you hang out in those karaoke joints for searching female companionships ? ????

[LuciusCornelius]

16 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

How is a short-term rental determined to be illegal?  Someone explain the logic of this statement.

Here is an article that deals substantially with your question.  Legality is no longer really up for debate.  Enforcement (or the lack of) is the issue now.

 

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2018/06/24/thai-law-case-closed-on-airbnb-heres-why-it-wont-matter/

[Chazar]

3 hours ago, LuciusCornelius said:

Airbnb is not illegal.  It is legal to rent your property out on Airbnb for periods of 30 days or more.  Anything under that requires a hotel licence or registration for exemption with the hotels registrar. Exemption is only available to licensed commercial businesses and in structures with fewer then 4 rooms or that accommodate fewer than 20 guests.  Condo buildings are massive (unixx is anyway) and have no hope of getting an exemption.  The fact that you can't legitimately run a business in a condo also renders getting an exemption impossible.

 

The rules on this have actually been pretty static.  However, it was a nebulous area of law until January 2018, when two cases went to court in Huahin and the court issued fines to co-owners renting their units on a ST basis. That judgement provoked a rollout of the "This is not a Hotel" type signage you see in almost every condo.

 

The issue here is not the legal situation.  That is quite clear cut.  The issue is enforcement.  

 

I'm sorry but I am not familiar with the case you mentioned.  What was he trying to register as? A commercial enterprise in a condo?  A hotel in a condo?  I can imagine why he would have problems with that. If you mean registering foreign guests via a TM30 that is fairly straightforward.  There are postal and online options.  

 

 

Not  sure,   about the minister? And I wasnt  clear about air b n b in  my  reply, its  illegal to rent out for LESS  than 30 days was what I meant and nearly  all of them are 1-2 3 day lets.

[LuciusCornelius]

5 minutes ago, Chazar said:

Not  sure,   about the minister? And I wasnt  clear about air b n b in  my  reply, its  illegal to rent out for LESS  than 30 days was what I meant and nearly  all of them are 1-2 3 day lets.

Yes, that is my feeling also.  The majority of the ST rentals that are taking place are under a week in Pattaya. As you say, anything sub 30 day is illegal.  

[bkk6060]

14 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Living in 2 cities  sounds like a nightmare  TM30 wise.

So in CM you hang out in those karaoke joints for searching female companionships ? ????

Haha. Have never done a tm 30 ever.

I have no idea what karaoke is.

I actually go to CM for some golf, relaxation and to get away from the Pattaya buzz.

But during the burning season, will stay in Pats.

[Destiny1990]

15 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Haha. Have never done a tm 30 ever.

I have no idea what karaoke is.

I actually go to CM for some golf, relaxation and to get away from the Pattaya buzz.

But during the burning season, will stay in Pats.

Kinda costly double rents, bills, vehicles but yeah changing surroundings is less boring but i would think Bkk Pats is a better combi personally  

[Skallywag]

34 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

How is a short-term rental determined to be illegal?  Someone explain the logic of this statement.

I like you better as Master Po.  5555

Determined by Thai law.

There is a Law in Thailand says 30 day minimum "lease" or "term" for Condo rental.   No license needed AFAIK,

Hoteliers, who own and run Hotels need a special Thai license, must charge VAT, must registers guest by the night, etc...

So if you do not own a hotel license you are renting short-term illegally.  

 

Yet Thais do not follow most of their own laws,  because even if they are caught, they simply pay a small fine or grease a palm and continue the practice and make their money .  IMO 

Blatant corruption, yet financially beneficial for all (Thai) parties involved

[tomazbodner]

3 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

I would say what you are told is false.

I ride past there a couple times a day and there are always several people out front with suitcases looks like they are waiting to check in.

 

But, to confirm I just checked all the major hotel sites including AbnB and can book 2 or 3 days no problem many rooms available Centric.

 

So, I would say Centric is doing nothing as is The Base and Unixx.

 

Several laws potentially broken:

No report to immigration of resident

ST rental

No taxes being paid on income.

There is probably something else.

 

 

We were stopped at the gate by security guard - told them we're staying 4 months, he wanted to see contract. Showed, he let us in. Got to reception of building A - the woman got very excited, and demanded to see contract as well, and took all our passports and scanned them before even allowing us to sit down. The only way you could get around this is if someone escorted you in under some other pretense or knew the reception staff. They certainly do not like short term visitors.

Another thing was the gym and pool access. It requires separate registration for the person going to the pool, so long term renters or tenants would bother doing it, but short term renters would not. I was checking a room (I was impressed enough with the building that I was considering buying a place there... but I think it is too pricey for as small as it is.. for now) anyway we were at the pool of building B with the seller and some daily tourists tried to use the pool - they turned them around and forced them to leave. They could get up in the lift but not past the 4 ladies at the top floor. All that while a farang guy was enjoying his time alone in the pool, and a pigeon resting on the sun chair, completely unafraid.

[LuciusCornelius]

8 hours ago, tomazbodner said:

We were stopped at the gate by security guard - told them we're staying 4 months, he wanted to see contract. Showed, he let us in. Got to reception of building A - the woman got very excited, and demanded to see contract as well, and took all our passports and scanned them before even allowing us to sit down. The only way you could get around this is if someone escorted you in under some other pretense or knew the reception staff. They certainly do not like short term visitors.

Another thing was the gym and pool access. It requires separate registration for the person going to the pool, so long term renters or tenants would bother doing it, but short term renters would not. I was checking a room (I was impressed enough with the building that I was considering buying a place there... but I think it is too pricey for as small as it is.. for now) anyway we were at the pool of building B with the seller and some daily tourists tried to use the pool - they turned them around and forced them to leave. They could get up in the lift but not past the 4 ladies at the top floor. All that while a farang guy was enjoying his time alone in the pool, and a pigeon resting on the sun chair, completely unafraid.

 

 

 

Some really nice pictures there.  I also really love your story.  That's the way it should be.  Clearly, Centric have some concept of security. I am sure that it is not 100% effective and there are still some ST rentals that slip through.  However, ST guests not being able to access the pool etc is a major minus for Airbnb style hosts in the building.  I am confident that Centric have found a formula that keeps this phenomenon to a bearable level that does not adversely impact the enjoyment of the building by other residents. This is a solution I could live with.

 

Annoyingly, I actually considered buying units in Centric.  I opted for Unixx because they have an external pool and more external space generally.  Also, I felt the build quality was better, as they seemed to be using the same materials in Unixx construction as  Northpoint.  The latter complex is obviously in a higher price bracket. Now, I wish I had bought in Centric after all. 

[Henryford]

14 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

I would say what you are told is false.

I ride past there a couple times a day and there are always several people out front with suitcases looks like they are waiting to check in.

 

But, to confirm I just checked all the major hotel sites including AbnB and can book 2 or 3 days no problem many rooms available Centric.

 

So, I would say Centric is doing nothing as is The Base and Unixx.

 

Several laws potentially broken:

No report to immigration of resident

ST rental

No taxes being paid on income.

There is probably something else.

 

 

Operating a business with no work permit

Breaking the Hotel Act

[Beggar]

11 hours ago, tomazbodner said:

We were stopped at the gate by security guard - told them we're staying 4 months, he wanted to see contract. Showed, he let us in. Got to reception of building A - the woman got very excited, and demanded to see contract as well, and took all our passports and scanned them before even allowing us to sit down. The only way you could get around this is if someone escorted you in under some other pretense or knew the reception staff. They certainly do not like short term visitors.

Another thing was the gym and pool access. It requires separate registration for the person going to the pool, so long term renters or tenants would bother doing it, but short term renters would not. I was checking a room (I was impressed enough with the building that I was considering buying a place there... but I think it is too pricey for as small as it is.. for now) anyway we were at the pool of building B with the seller and some daily tourists tried to use the pool - they turned them around and forced them to leave. They could get up in the lift but not past the 4 ladies at the top floor. All that while a farang guy was enjoying his time alone in the pool, and a pigeon resting on the sun chair, completely unafraid.

 

 

Even the pigeon looks more relaxed at Centric.