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Saudi Arabia has ‘a great deal of explaining to do’ on how its oil assets were attacked, says former US diplomat


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4 minutes ago, kamahele said:

Ask Syria as they have the Russian system. Seems not to work too well....

As far as I know they did not used any new stuff yet. All 20 years old stuff. Seems to work fine since Israel has to hide behind civilian and Russian airplane to carry their bombing. 

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10 minutes ago, bendejo said:

Perhaps they are not supposed to work well.  *wink*

 

No superpower sells Model A of Weapon 101 to anyone. Model A is reserved for the superpower alone. Close allies get Model B. Other allies get Model C. The international market gets Model D or E or surplus-to-requirements depending on assessment of need, friendliness, reliability and competence. Saudis probably get Model D ...

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1 hour ago, animalmagic said:

Can't really say that missiles are best used to defend against small targets, but a completely autonomous 'close in weapon system' (CIWS) like Phalanx or Goalkeeper would seem to be a good choice.  They are currently used on naval vessels and combined with specialist radar systems such as Sentinel that automatically direct fire from their 6 barreled Gatling gun at incoming targets.

I'm surprised if they haven't been sold any...…..yet!

 

It's all a game of rock, paper, scissors. The Saudi bought billions of $ of rocks and scissors, Iran threw a lot of paper at them.

 

CIWS, AKA point defence weapons, are used by Russia in Syria because they know their vaulted S300/S400 systems are not good at stopping advanced radio-silent, terrain hugging cruise missiles. When the West threatened to strike Syria a second time for using chemical weapons, Putin said he would shoot down all the missiles and the platforms that launched them.

 

The West threw terrain hugging rocks at Syria/Putin's scissors. They chose targets with no point defences and used globally integrated systems to have all 100+ cruise missiles hit targets simultaneously. The attack was over in seconds. Syrian systems had no warning. To find terrain hugging missiles, you must first launch defence missiles so they can look down for the cruise missiles.

 

As long as they don't start playing rock, paper, scissors, uranium, it will be OK, which is how we got here in the first place.

 

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4 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

No superpower sells Model A of Weapon 101 to anyone. Model A is reserved for the superpower alone. Close allies get Model B. Other allies get Model C. The international market gets Model D or E or surplus-to-requirements depending on assessment of need, friendliness, reliability and competence. Saudis probably get Model D ...

The Centerpiece of 21st Century Global Security

 

Since the first F-35 Lightning II rolled out of the Lockheed Martin factory in Fort Worth, Texas in 2006, the program’s reach has exponentially expanded around the globe.

Of the original nine partner countries –  Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey, the United Kingdom and the United States – six have received their first jets. There are also three foreign military sale (FMS) customers - Israel, Japan and the Republic of Korea.

https://www.f35.com/global

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3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

The Centerpiece of 21st Century Global Security

 

Since the first F-35 Lightning II rolled out of the Lockheed Martin factory in Fort Worth, Texas in 2006, the program’s reach has exponentially expanded around the globe.

Of the original nine partner countries –  Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey, the United Kingdom and the United States – six have received their first jets. There are also three foreign military sale (FMS) customers - Israel, Japan and the Republic of Korea.

https://www.f35.com/global

And the codes for all the software are given to all those countries, are they? I don't think so.

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17 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Do missile defense systems work on drones?

July 2019: The U.S.S. Boxer shot down the unmanned drone in a “defensive action”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/07/18/trump-us-shot-down-iranian-drone/#75787c985961

The USS Boxer used a new system called a MRZR LMADIS — a Light Marine Air Defense Integrated System. The system is mounted on a Polaris MRZR vehicle.

image.png.24ece127850cccc7d3003b2796ef4ca6.png

https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/21/20700670/us-marines-mrzr-lmadis-iran-drone-shoot-down-energy-weapon-uss-boxer

The 4-wheeled MRZR vehicle would be ideal to guard fixed petrochemical facilities.

For small minimally electronic attack drones there are systems such as the handheld Skywall 100 drone defense system.

The point is that Saudi Arabia appears to have nothing. Not even in the nature of a basic early warning system such as people in towers watching the skies. It almost seems S.A. was inviting an attack that could be used to release Trump's Dogs of War.

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I really doubt this was done by Iran. Would they really be that careless, at this point in time? The tensions are already so high, and all eyes are on them. They are not dumb, and they are very calculating. It just does not make sense, and does not pass the wiff test. I think this was either an extremist element within Saudi, the Houtis, or someone else who despises the Saudis. After all, they have few real friends, and alot of enemies. MBS is a stain on the planet, and their policies attract alot of hatred. Seems a bit convenient for the US to be able to pin this on Iran. Trump does seem to be itching to start a war. He thinks it would be a nice distraction from his current woes, and dramatically declining poll numbers and support. And he thinks it will make him look tough. All this from the "deferment king". In reality, it could not only be the biggest mistake of his presidency, it would end up being the biggest mistake of post WWII America. Iran has countless ways of retaliating, and some of them are very ugly. Continue to underestimate Iran's potential for havoc, terror, cyber attacks, and disruption, at your own expense America and Saudi.

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35 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

July 2019: The U.S.S. Boxer shot down the unmanned drone in a “defensive action”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/07/18/trump-us-shot-down-iranian-drone/#75787c985961

The USS Boxer used a new system called a MRZR LMADIS — a Light Marine Air Defense Integrated System. The system is mounted on a Polaris MRZR vehicle.

image.png.24ece127850cccc7d3003b2796ef4ca6.png

https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/21/20700670/us-marines-mrzr-lmadis-iran-drone-shoot-down-energy-weapon-uss-boxer

The 4-wheeled MRZR vehicle would be ideal to guard fixed petrochemical facilities.

For small minimally electronic attack drones there are systems such as the handheld Skywall 100 drone defense system.

The point is that Saudi Arabia appears to have nothing. Not even in the nature of a basic early warning system such as people in towers watching the skies. It almost seems S.A. was inviting an attack that could be used to release Trump's Dogs of War.

 

"The point is that Saudi Arabia appears to have nothing. Not even in the nature of a basic early warning system such as people in towers watching the skies."

 

Not so much a "point" as rubbish. Saudi Arabia got plenty in terms of hardware. But having that is no substitute to military competence and professionalism.

 

I'm not aware of a country facing wide usage of hostile drone warfare and being overly successful dealing with it. 

 

Current systems available do not offer a comprehensive or even fully effective answer.

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28 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I really doubt this was done by Iran. Would they really be that careless, at this point in time? The tensions are already so high, and all eyes are on them. They are not dumb, and they are very calculating. It just does not make sense, and does not pass the wiff test. I think this was either an extremist element within Saudi, the Houtis, or someone else who despises the Saudis. After all, they have few real friends, and alot of enemies. MBS is a stain on the planet, and their policies attract alot of hatred. Seems a bit convenient for the US to be able to pin this on Iran. Trump does seem to be itching to start a war. He thinks it would be a nice distraction from his current woes, and dramatically declining poll numbers and support. And he thinks it will make him look tough. All this from the "deferment king". In reality, it could not only be the biggest mistake of his presidency, it would end up being the biggest mistake of post WWII America. Iran has countless ways of retaliating, and some of them are very ugly. Continue to underestimate Iran's potential for havoc, terror, cyber attacks, and disruption, at your own expense America and Saudi.

 

Yes, but you consistently "doubt" Iran is responsible for anything.

 

There is no particular reason to hype Iran's leadership prowess - they are not beyond miscalculating (or they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with), they do not shy away from aggression (directly or by proxy).

 

If you think Iran doesn't having anything to gain, think again. Oil prices go up? Whatever Iran manages to sell sells for more. A major Saudi installation gets attacked and no response? Hurts SA's and MBS's image, and regional standing. And then there's a message in it - we can and we will, don't mess with us.

 

And while it's nice that you go on about "extremist element within Saudi, the Houtis, or someone else who despises the Saudis" - that's a rather vague assertion, an apparently without much substance or support offered.

 

Doubt Trump is "itching" for a war, or that he would go to war over this. As some may recall nothing much happened when the USA UAV was shot down, even.

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1 hour ago, Tayaout said:

As far as I know they did not used any new stuff yet. All 20 years old stuff. Seems to work fine since Israel has to hide behind civilian and Russian airplane to carry their bombing. 

 

Repeating Russia's nonsensical face-saving version of the incident doesn't make it any more coherent or correct. It also doesn't have a whole lot to do with the topic, or the issue of drone/cruise missile usage.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Morch said:

There is no particular reason to hype Iran's leadership prowess - they are not beyond miscalculating (or they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with), they do not shy away from aggression (directly or by proxy).

 

 

"There is no particular reason to hype Iran's leadership prowess - they are not beyond miscalculating (or they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with), they do not shy away from aggression (directly or by proxy)."

So what miscalculation by Iran has caused Trump to withdraw from the agreement? It's that withdrawal that has brought on "this mess"? 

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I haven't seen any reports of casualties from either of the two incidents which surprises me, especially given the footage of the aftermath and the fact that at least one of the facilities, Abqaiq, is a sour plant - designed to receive and process crude with a high Hydrogen Sulphide content. 

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19 hours ago, Lungstib said:

One recent report suggests the 'drone' could have been fired from Southern Iraq, now also an anti-Saudi shiite area. Perhaps the locals in Iraq have managed to get their hands on some more sophisticated equipment courtesy of an ex-invader who carelessly left things in dangerous hands. 

Iraq is known to be in possession of  Chinese made drones  capable of missile launch.

In very recent times Israel has bombed at least one confirmed and several other arms depots in Iraq.

Is it to be known they  missed one?

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