lack of spaces between Thai words

[tgeezer]

เธอตก ลงไปด้วย 

เธอตกลง ไปด้วย

ให้เงินไปหมดแล้ว ยังจะมาขออีก

ให้เงินไป หมดแล้วยังจะมาขออีก 

เขาทำบุญให้ คนจนหมดตัว 

เขาทำบุญให้คน จนหมดตัว 

อาหาร อร่อยหมดทุกอย่าง 

อาหารอร่อยหมด ทุกอย่าง 

[Happy Grumpy]

It saves paper. 

[tgeezer]

47 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

It saves paper. 

Looked at from my point of view, Thai has no punctuation marks so how else can punctuation be shown other than by spaces? 

[CygnusX1]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

เธอตก ลงไปด้วย 

เธอตกลง ไปด้วย

Thanks for those examples, just the sort of thing I was thinking about in my previous comment. Also shows how hard it is sometimes to decide when a sentence finishes.

[katana]

9 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

You appear to be unaware that the word "dumb" here means unable (or unwilling) to speak.  It stems from the fact that deaf people often have great difficulty learning to speak.  Nothing to do with their intelligence or ability to think.

Yes, I know its other meaning. They were thought to be 'dumb' or stupid because they couldn't speak. And in the days before sign language was invented or its importance in being taught to deaf children from a very early age was recognised, they actually became dumb or stupid because they had no language to think with.
Nowadays that's why deaf people prefer the terms hard of hearing or hearing impaired rather than deaf and dumb, because of its connotations with being stupid.

[Oxx]

4 minutes ago, katana said:

they actually became dumb or stupid because they had no language to think with.

 

The sheer ignorance of that comment leaves me dumbfounded.

[faraday]

9 minutes ago, katana said:

Yes, I know its other meaning. They were thought to be 'dumb' or stupid because they couldn't speak. And in the days before sign language was invented or its importance in being taught to deaf children from a very early age was recognised, they actually became dumb or stupid because they had no language to think with.
Nowadays that's why deaf people prefer the terms hard of hearing or hearing impaired rather than deaf and dumb, because of its connotations with being stupid.

Are you saying people need language in order to think?

 

[CygnusX1]

15 minutes ago, faraday said:

Are you saying people need language in order to think?

Quote from Helen Keller -

“Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness.”

Doesn’t prove that language is required in order to think, but suggests that it’s necessary for the sort of introspective thought that only humans seem capable of.

[canuckamuck]

28 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

The sheer ignorance of that comment leaves me dumbfounded.

He's not totally off track here is a snippet on the origin of dumb.

Quote

The fork in meaning probably comes via the notion of  "not responding through ignorance or incomprehension." The Old English, Old Saxon (dumb), Gothic (dumbs), and Old Norse (dumbr) forms of the word meant only "mute, speechless;" in Old High German (thumb) it meant both this and "stupid," and in Modern German this latter became the only sense (the sense of "mute, speechless" being expressed by stumm). Meaning "foolish, ignorant" was occasional in Middle English, but the modern use in this sense (since 1823) seems to be from influence of German dumm, especially in Pennsylvania German  Link

 

[katana]

1 hour ago, Oxx said:

 

The sheer ignorance of that comment leaves me dumbfounded.

Is that your only argument?
Maybe your moniker really is a case of nominative determinism and you really are as dumb as an ox.

1 hour ago, faraday said:

Are you saying people need language in order to think?

 

Read the link I posted earlier. What I said was, without a language, whether it be sign language or a spoken language, you will become mentally handicapped and have learning difficulties compared to people who learnt a language. The case of deaf people who never learnt sign language is an example.
...Thus, deaf people who aren’t identified as such very young or that live in places where they aren’t able to be taught sign language, will be significantly handicapped mentally until they learn a structured language, even though there is nothing actually wrong with their brains. The problem is even more severe than it may appear at first because of how important language is to the early stages of development of the brain. Those completely deaf people who are taught no sign language until later life will often have learning problems that stick with them throughout their lives, even after they have eventually learned a particular sign language...
https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/07/how-deaf-people-think/

[mlkik]

On 9/18/2019 at 8:12 PM, DaRoadrunner said:

On top of which, written Thai is also dyslexic. The vowels and consonants are not pronounced in the sequence in which they are written. Like so many things here, it makes no sense. Once you learn to read Thai you begin to understand why their thought process is so f***ed up.

Maybe they think that about you and your thought process.

If you want to learn to speak Thai then do so, accept that the language is strange and different fom yours and succeed.

If not then moan and complain than it is the Thai peoples fault that you are not able to learn their language 555 f . F s

 

[marin]

On 9/18/2019 at 7:24 PM, BananaBandit said:

I don't see how it could be enjoyable to have to process 85 consecutive letters without a single space, and then repeat the process every two lines for like 300 pages. 

 

 

On 9/18/2019 at 8:12 PM, DaRoadrunner said:

On top of which, written Thai is also dyslexic. The vowels and consonants are not pronounced in the sequence in which they are written. Like so many things here, it makes no sense. Once you learn to read Thai you begin to understand why their thought process is so f***ed up.

xenophobia is alive and well. Lets look at a bit or English. Knight, how do you pronounce that word? Wrong, how about that one.  Lets look at a sentence or two. The drummer painted a bass on his bass drum.  The oarsmen had a row about how to row the boat.  You learn a language from birth and it becomes natural.  

 

Seems some would rather just bitch and complain and see their "writing" in print. Damn dudes take a chill pill.  

[doctormann]

On 9/20/2019 at 2:42 AM, cooked said:

When I had a shot at learning Hebrew many years ago a rabbi told me that the priests that cobbled the written language together did it with the aim of making it difficult for the common people to access the religious and legal texts, leaving the elite in control. The funny thing was, that he said "and it still fulfills that function today". 

I was told the same thing by the director of a well known language school in Pattaya so maybe there is some truth in this.

[phycokiller]

as an aside its the same in cambodia

[BananaBandit]

3 hours ago, doctormann said:

  On 9/19/2019 at 3:42 PM, cooked said:

When I had a shot at learning Hebrew many years ago a rabbi told me that the priests that cobbled the written language together did it with the aim of making it difficult for the common people to access the religious and legal texts, leaving the elite in control. The funny thing was, that he said "and it still fulfills that function today". 

 

3 hours ago, doctormann said:

I was told the same thing by the director of a well known language school in Pattaya so maybe there is some truth in this.

 

is there any particular book or article that makes this contention ?    i would be interested in reading it...tried searching on the google. no luck. but maybe the keywords i used were less than optimal

 

[uhuh]

2 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

On the other hand, English has to be one of the most rule based languages. We go to school for 12 years - only to discover that we need at least 2 more years of post-secondary English in order to write academic papers.

Indogermanic languages like English,  German, French and Russian are well known for the lack of consistent rules in their grammars. It is just a convoluted mess of inconsistencies, irregularities and exceptions.  Just look at Latin and Sanskrit!

So different from grammars with clear rules that are actually followed through, like e.g. Chinese or Turkish.

 

These messy languages surely explain why Europeans and their descendants in America and Australia have so messy minds and cannot think clearly as witnessed many times on TVF ????

 

 

[uhuh]

K

[HampiK]

I think when you learned to read a little bit more then the missing spaces is not the big problem. What i struggle most is the names. I would prefer when they always would put names (of person, country or regions) in brackets or something. As this is the problems which I am confronted the most.

As soon you can read a little bit better you will spot the words you now even when there are no spaces. and you also see when you not know the word. but there starts the problem. sometimes I start to read the word and think what should be the meaning till I figure out (or sometimes need help) to understand that this is only a name of something.
Maybe who knows when I am better in reading this also isn't a problem anymore. But at least now this is my problem!

[cooked]

7 hours ago, BananaBandit said:

 

 

is there any particular book or article that makes this contention ?    i would be interested in reading it...tried searching on the google. no luck. but maybe the keywords i used were less than optimal

 

Not that I can think of. However the Roman Catholic church clinging to Latin in both the Bible and church services may give you a clue. Interest groups also tend to form their own unintelligible lingos, from engineers to doctors to legislators and politicians.

[bearpolar]

On 9/19/2019 at 2:46 AM, Damrongsak said:

430 meanings including dialects?  "I set down hyar a lookin at this post fer awhile."

 

English may have no official tones but tone of voice does significantly change the message.  We can convey anger, sarcasm, agreement, etc.  I suppose Thai has some other ways of emphasis if I think about it. 

A lot of times i see posts from 70yo+ UK guys in the motor forums and i know the words they are using but i do not understand a single thing they are trying to convey(and it's not from spelling mistakes)

[ColeBOzbourne]

5 hours ago, HampiK said:

What i struggle most is the names. I would prefer when they always would put names (of person, country or regions) in brackets or something. As this is the problems which I am confronted the most.

As soon you can read a little bit better you will spot the words you now even when there are no spaces. and you also see when you not know the word. but there starts the problem. sometimes I start to read the word and think what should be the meaning till I figure out (or sometimes need help) to understand that this is only a name of something.

I feel your pain. I was unhappy with Benjawan P. Becker and Beginner's Thai when she put a new word in the conversation dialogue without first introducing it in the vocabulary section. I searched high and low for that word in two dictionaries, google, the index and then back through the vocabulary list several times. No clue. Turns out it was the name 'Tony', which I then noticed was clearly written in the margin of the dialogue in English and in Thai. It also happens to be my own nickname. Sometimes I have to take a break and give my brain a rest!

 

[uhuh]

11 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

That's quite a leap in fallacious logic.

Your assertion is that English is not rule based?

It sure is:

https://www.englishclub.com/esl-articles/199909.htm

Ghoti etc actually is rule based. The rules are just a bit too complicated even for many native speakers. 

[phichay]

How come there are often about 10 Thai words in a row with no spaces between any of them ?
 
I asked a college-educated Thai family. They basically said that's just how it is. No specific reason given. 
 
This lack of spacing definitely makes reading comprehension more difficult for us. But does it also make comprehension more difficult for Thai people ?
 
An alumna of a top-three Thai university told me flat out:   "Thai people don't like to read."   Kinda seems that way. And I somewhat suspect it has something to do with this lack of spacing....Aside from any possible issues with comprehension, I don't see how it could be enjoyable to have to process 85 consecutive letters without a single space, and then repeat the process every two lines for like 300 pages. 
 
What do you guys think ?

I can read Thai to maybe an intermediate level. I can read and write the alphabet also. Once you learn the rules of the consonants (starting and finishing consonants) and the vowel structures, whether straight or clustered, you will understand that there is no need for gaps between words. The rules dictate the start and finish of the word. It becomes natural. If you don't learn these rules then you will be stuck criticising a language that you don't understand. How can you possibly criticise the language if you don't understand it?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[amexpat]

34 minutes ago, phichay said:

 

I can read Thai to maybe an intermediate level. I can read and write the alphabet also. Once you learn the rules of the consonants (starting and finishing consonants) and the vowel structures, whether straight or clustered, you will understand that there is no need for gaps between words. The rules dictate the start and finish of the word. It becomes natural. If you don't learn these rules then you will be stuck criticising a language that you don't understand. How can you possibly criticise the language if you don't understand it?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Because it would be so much easier if there were spaces between the words along with all those rules - and exceptions. 

 

[uhuh]

Easier for whom?

For foreigners?

 

Du yu rialais hau matsh isier inglish wud bi if spelt fonettikali?

[JeffreyO]

It's not exceptionally uncommon.  Spaces, except for European/North American based languages tend to be almost non-existent. Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Thai, Burmese (Myanmarnese these days?), Laos, Thai, etc. etc.

 

The exceptions tend to be those nations whose languages have been influenced by western sources.  Philippines, Vietnam, etc.

[joy16]

On 9/19/2019 at 4:45 PM, BananaBandit said:

 

 

 

The second example is, indeed, far more palatable (though I suspect it would be problematic for a native-Thai speaker trying to read English). 

As a Thai native speaker, the second example is not problematic for me.

[BananaBandit]

On 9/23/2019 at 7:10 AM, marin said:

On 9/18/2019 at 8:24 AM, BananaBandit said:

I don't see how it could be enjoyable to have to process 85 consecutive letters without a single space, and then repeat the process every two lines for like 300 pages. 

 

On 9/23/2019 at 7:10 AM, marin said:

On 9/18/2019 at 9:12 AM, DaRoadrunner said:

On top of which, written Thai is also dyslexic. The vowels and consonants are not pronounced in the sequence in which they are written. Like so many things here, it makes no sense. Once you learn to read Thai you begin to understand why their thought process is so f***ed up.

 

On 9/23/2019 at 7:10 AM, marin said:

 

xenophobia is alive and well. Lets look at a bit or English. Knight, how do you pronounce that word? Wrong, how about that one.  Lets look at a sentence or two. The drummer painted a bass on his bass drum.  The oarsmen had a row about how to row the boat.  You learn a language from birth and it becomes natural.  

 

Seems some would rather just bitch and complain and see their "writing" in print. Damn dudes take a chill pill.  

 

The excerpt from my quote involves skepticism about a particular written language being conducive to reading enjoyment. 

 

The excerpt from the other person's quote involves an attempt to psychoanalyze an entire ethnic group.

 

Those two excerpts are not exactly of the same ilk.
 

[BananaBandit]

On 9/26/2019 at 10:02 AM, phichay said:

On 9/18/2019 at 8:24 AM, BananaBandit said:

How come there are often about 10 Thai words in a row with no spaces between any of them ?
 
I asked a college-educated Thai family. They basically said that's just how it is. No specific reason given. 
 
This lack of spacing definitely makes reading comprehension more difficult for us. But does it also make comprehension more difficult for Thai people ?
 
An alumna of a top-three Thai university told me flat out:   "Thai people don't like to read."   Kinda seems that way. And I somewhat suspect it has something to do with this lack of spacing....Aside from any possible issues with comprehension, I don't see how it could be enjoyable to have to process 85 consecutive letters without a single space, and then repeat the process every two lines for like 300 pages. 
 
What do you guys think ?

 

On 9/26/2019 at 10:02 AM, phichay said:

 

I can read Thai to maybe an intermediate level. I can read and write the alphabet also. Once you learn the rules of the consonants (starting and finishing consonants) and the vowel structures, whether straight or clustered, you will understand that there is no need for gaps between words. The rules dictate the start and finish of the word. It becomes natural. If you don't learn these rules then you will be stuck criticising a language that you don't understand. How can you possibly criticise the language if you don't understand it?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

The original post is clearly more about indulging my curiosity and seeking other people's input, as opposed to an attempt at criticism. 

 

Because everything I've heard in person or read online portrays Thai recreational reading as an atypical activity, it leads me to wonder about the potential reasons. 

 

Some of us might be interested in the following article, "Reforming Thai language structure," from the online SEA publication New Mandala. Here is the link: https://www.newmandala.org/reforming-thai-language-structure/

 

The article's comments section is particularly lively. Some people think that non-spacing is a non-issue. But others, including non-farlangs and a professional translator, think that non-spacing is a considerable issue.

 

[digbeth]

do you know that using Thai with computers has a considerable (but sorta solved) issue with no spacing

in displaying chunk of text, when resizing and if the space is insufficient, the computer has to know where to break the text into the next line. for language that use spaces, this is obvious, just break at the space, a word can be defined as enclosed by spaces.

 

for Thai, the solution that in order to find where to break, the computer must first know what a word is, so in every computer that handles Thai, there must be a dictionary or list of words to compare against, and even then it's not foolproof, some bits inside another words could look like a valid word. or there are multiple break choice available and have different meanings,

 

take for example

 

ตากลม

 

it could be either ตา กลม (round eyes) or ตาก ลม (airing against the breeze)

 

reading Thai on different browsers/os from internet explorer to chrome and firefox could yield different word/line breaking due to the dictionary/method used.