Monthly income method.

[Changoverandout]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

That will be a very good test-case for the discussions whether an 'average monthly income' is allowed.

It's clear from your post that you meet the intent of the law.  But if your provincial IO goes for the minimum 40.000 THB per month strict interpretation as some IO's seem to do, you might see your application denied.

So it would be wise to check out and plan some options in case of application denied.

Do keep us posted on the outcome, even though when approved it would only show that your IO (actually the officer that handled your application) acts according to the intent of the law.

Wish you luck and a good outcome!

 

 

Thanks. But apart from buying a ‘agent’ visa I Pattaya I’m not sure what options I have.

 

When would I be informed if I’m refused, at time or application or during the 30 day consideration period and how long before I’d have to leave Thailand?

 

Not a pleasant thought after 18 years!

Edited September 22, 2019 by Changoverandout
Addition

[doctormann]

Retirement - Monthly method using TMB Bank.

 

I do a monthly transfer by SWIFT from Barclays UK to TMB of at least the minimum 65k Baht.

 

Looking at my TMB pass book, the code that appears is NT, which just signifies 'Transfer without book'.  There is no indication that this relates to a foreign transaction.  In fact, TMB do not seem to have any such code as FTT, or similar, to identify a deposit of funds from a foreign source.

 

On the other hand, if I print off an online statement, the code that appears is 'Transfer in via EXIM'.  As you may be aware, EXIM is the Thailand Export/Import bank.  I think that what happens is that Barclays send Sterling to EXIM, who then do the GBP/Baht conversion and then forward the Baht to TMB.

 

It remains to be seen if this is acceptable to Immigration.  i did query TMB head office about this but they were less than helpful and just referred me to my local branch. I shall ask about this at Immigration when i do my next 90-day check-in.

 

Anyone out there using TMB for monthly transfers?  If so, what is your experience when it comes to extending your Permission to Stay?

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, Changoverandout said:

Thanks. But apart from buying a ‘agent’ visa I Pattaya I’m not sure what options I have.

 

When would I be informed if I’m refused, at time or application or during the 30 day consideration period and how long before I’d have to leave Thailand?

 

Not a pleasant thought after 18 years!

Using an agent to challenge the IO decision in case of denying your extension of stay is an option, but doubt that will be successful. And if successful, having to deal again in future with the officer having his/her decision turned around on your case, might be unpleasant.

Another option when your extension of stay would be denied is to apply for a Non Imm O Visa in a neigbouring country (e.g. in Savannakhet).  On your return, you could then apply for an extension of stay based on that new Visa.  To get that application approved you would only need to show that the last 2 monthly income transfers you made were over +40.000 THB (since it is a new Visa there would be no need for a 12-month history).

But hopefully the officer handling your case beginning of October is not a 'hardliner' and will approve your application (your 18 year history in Thailand for sure will be a bonus-factor).     

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, Changoverandout said:

Thanks. But apart from buying a ‘agent’ visa I Pattaya I’m not sure what options I have.

 

When would I be informed if I’m refused, at time or application or during the 30 day consideration period and how long before I’d have to leave Thailand?

It would be your local office that refused to accept your application. Then you could apply for a 60 day extension to visit your wife to get time to sort things out.

Not likely the division headquarters would disapprove it during the under consideration period that you get after it is accepted at the local office. I think the division level would go by the written rules.

 

[Changoverandout]

7 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It would be your local office that refused to accept your application. Then you could apply for a 60 day extension to visit your wife to get time to sort things out.

Not likely the division headquarters would disapprove it during the under consideration period that you get after it is accepted at the local office. I think the division level would go by the written rules.

 

So if IO in Nakhon Sawan refuse me do I then ask the same officer for a 60 day extension to visit my wife?

Then should I get a ‘Pattaya visa’ for 20 odd thousand baht or a new non imm o from savannaket and leave the country every 90 days?

[ubonjoe]

32 minutes ago, Changoverandout said:

So if IO in Nakhon Sawan refuse me do I then ask the same officer for a 60 day extension to visit my wife?

Yes

32 minutes ago, Changoverandout said:

Then should I get a ‘Pattaya visa’ for 20 odd thousand baht or a new non imm o from savannaket and leave the country every 90 days?

I would not suggest the under the table visa route.

Even a single entry non-o visa would give you 5 months to get things sorted out by extending the 90 days for 60 days. Or 2 entries from a multiple entry visa that would give you almost 10 months.

[billd766]

On 9/20/2019 at 8:28 AM, MartiniMan said:

My friend was 10 baht under once and get rejected. Sorry to let you know this but I think better you take the full amount of capital (400k) and leave in account for 3 months as it cannot be rejected that way.

They will do anything to keep farang out of Thailand because they do not travel at all and dont really understand what it is they are doing in their jobs they just pretty strange to be honest

It may be better if you put an extra 20 or 30k baht on top of the 400,000 thb, JIC. Just in case, if you have it available.

[billd766]

On 9/20/2019 at 10:55 AM, sandyf said:

I would agree with the post, your comment did indicate you changed the association. 

The text from the screen grab clearly shows that the word "average is associated with "monthly".

You may well be right with intent but again it is the interpretation that becomes a variable.

I get 3 pensions and part of the problem is that the forex rate changes daily and sometimes more often. What I get transferred one month will be different the next month and so on.

 

2 pensions are monthly paid and arrive on the same (but different) days each month and the state pension is paid every 4th Friday.

 

 

[Changoverandout]

25 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Yes

I would not suggest the under the table visa route.

Even a single entry non-o visa would give you 5 months to get things sorted out by extending the 90 days for 60 days. Or 2 entries from a multiple entry visa that would give you almost 10 months.

So if refused I ask for 60 days to visit my wife during which time I go to savannaket to get a multiple entry non imm O and leave the country every 90 days?

Are no financials needed for extension based on marriage?

Edited September 22, 2019 by Changoverandout
Addition

[ubonjoe]

41 minutes ago, Changoverandout said:

So if refused I ask for 60 days to visit my wife during which time I go to savannaket to get a multiple entry non imm O and leave the country every 90 days?

You can apply for a 60 day extension to visit your wife if they refuse to accept your application.

You can get a 60 day extension for each 90 day entry which means you do not have to leave the country for almost 5 months.

41 minutes ago, Changoverandout said:

Are no financials needed for extension based on marriage?

No financial proof is needed to apply for the 60 day extension to visit your wife.

[Changoverandout]

29 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You can apply for a 60 day extension to visit your wife if they refuse to accept your application.

You can get a 60 day extension for each 90 day entry which means you do not have to leave the country for almost 5 months.

No financial proof is needed to apply for the 60 day extension to visit your wife.

I meant is financial proof required in Savannahkhet for a multi non imm O visa?

So after the first 60 day extension to visit my wife I can request another 60 days ?

[john thom]

6 hours ago, Changoverandout said:

Citibank sent me a letter stating they receive money from U.K. pension office and transfer to my bank.

The other pensions I send ad hoc throughout the year via transferwise and are coded FTT (foreign transfer).

Yes I asked the IO if I’d be okay a while back and she said I need 40000 per month so I’m going armed with the police order in Thai and English.

 

Fingers etc crossed!

Good luck, hope your in the winners circle.  My IO office denied my retirement renewal and told me to go to Laos for a non immigrant till I could have FULL year-every month transfers, even though I've been going there for 3 years and I bring all income proof- ie tax statements, pension statements social security

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, Changoverandout said:

I meant is financial proof required in Savannahkhet for a multi non imm O visa?

So after the first 60 day extension to visit my wife I can request another 60 days ?

No financial proof required for the ME Non O at Savannakhet.

 

You can apply for one 60 day extension for any granted permission of stay when married to a Thai.

If your extension application is refused, you can apply for one 60 day extension.

 

If on a ME Non O Visa, each entry grants 90 days + one 60 day extension = 150 days,

You could stay for almost 17 months, 3 border runs and 3 x 60 day extensions.

[Tanoshi]

27 minutes ago, john thom said:

I've been going there for 3 years and I bring all income proof- ie tax statements, pension statements social security

That's the type of documentation you used to send to the British Embassy to obtain Income letters, not the type of proof Immigration require (unless requested as additional evidence).

 

I'm convinced your problem is because you made no attempt to start monthly overseas transfers to meet the financial requirements until 2 months before your application.

Had you started in January, when the BE no longer issued Income letters and Immigration announced acceptance of overseas transfers as an alternative method, then they'd have shown leniency.

[john terry1001]

On 9/19/2019 at 12:42 PM, ubonjoe said:

For an extension based upon marriage a average income of 40k baht for a year (at least a total of 480k baht). is allowed. 

Some offices have been reported as claiming it is not allowed but it is clearly written in the police orders.

 

 

Ubonjoe, I agree with your interpretation as it stands, but can you say who actually wrote the the section of the police order you are quoting? Is it an official translated document ?

 

I ask because there is no comma in Thai text and, depending on where commas are inserted in the section you've highlighted, the meaning could vary. 

 

[ubonjoe]

9 hours ago, john terry1001 said:

Ubonjoe, I agree with your interpretation as it stands, but can you say who actually wrote the the section of the police order you are quoting? Is it an official translated document ?

There is no official translation of any police orders. It was done by a translation service.

The average income being allowed is not new. 

The same wording for the income portion of clause 2.18 of police order 327/2557 and 777/2551 mentions an average income. 

"(6) In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month or must have no less than Baht 400,000 in a bank account in Thailand for the past two months to cover expenses for one year."

Also in 5 of clause 2.18 of 327/2557 (it was not in 777/2551).

"(5) In the case of parents, the father or mother must maintain an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month throughout the year or must have deposited funds of no less than Baht 400,000 to cover expenses for one year."

 

 

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

I get 3 pensions and part of the problem is that the forex rate changes daily and sometimes more often. What I get transferred one month will be different the next month and so on.

 

2 pensions are monthly paid and arrive on the same (but different) days each month and the state pension is paid every 4th Friday.

 

 

I am exactly the same Bill. state pension and 2 others, but I work out of a UK bank account and just transfer each month an amount that will get me just over the 40K baht.

The problem I have this year is I was away for nearly 2 months and it was more important to fund my credit card account than my Thai account. If my wife and I are not here in Thailand there are no outgoings other than the 2 direct debits for electricity and internet, something immigration does not take into account.

[MAGA 2020]

Been showing monthly deposits of 40,000 from my business in Thailand for last ten years. On extension provide copy of deposit plus yearly tax filing. Never been a issue. Except once a lazy officer suggested I change to retirement, I smiled and said thanks, that was over 5 yrs ago.

[timkeen08]

52 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

There is no official translation of any police orders. It was done by a translation service.

The average income being allowed is not new. 

The same wording for the income portion of clause 2.18 of police order 327/2557 and 777/2551 mentions an average income. 

"(6) In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month or must have no less than Baht 400,000 in a bank account in Thailand for the past two months to cover expenses for one year."

Also in 5 of clause 2.18 of 327/2557 (it was not in 777/2551).

"(5) In the case of parents, the father or mother must maintain an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month throughout the year or must have deposited funds of no less than Baht 400,000 to cover expenses for one year."

 

 

If there is no official translations then your opinion on translations are not official and should be taken with a grain of salt.  I notice this translation does not have the exact same order of wording as the previous translation and the comma is not in the same place in yet another non official translation.

 

To paraphrase my wife when I explained and asked her to tell me the differences in the two translations to English she said, farang think too much and no do what immigration say.  Farang understand no same same Thai.  I no free time.  Up to friend you internet.

 

So far, she makes more sense to me than your continued attempts to prove you are right.  Many on this thread have proof from immigration that they do not agree with your interpretation, have been denied an extension, and I have not read anyone yet reporting that immigration has accepted an average with one month going below 40,000 baht.

[UKresonant]

So if it's not an average, and it's a Minimum of 40k per month, how does 400,000 cover expenses for a year?

 

Farang no understand same Thai ????. 

[ubonjoe]

Some baiting and bickering posts have been removed. Time to end it.

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, timkeen08 said:

If there is no official translations then your opinion on translations are not official and should be taken with a grain of salt.  I notice this translation does not have the exact same order of wording as the previous translation and the comma is not in the same place in yet another non official translation.

 

The order I posted a screenshot of amended police order 138/2557. 

Police orders 327/2557 and 777/2551 I quoted are the primary orders for extensions so the wording in Thai me be a little different. "Subject: Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien’s Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand'

 

Not really sure why you think the comma is so important.

The average income has not been really that big an issue until this year since most people applying for the extension used proof of income from their embassies that had a monthly income on it. The majority of those that might of been using the average were those working or owned a business that produced provided their income. I think that is the reason that not many immigration officers are aware that a average income is allowed.

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

"(6) In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

US (affidavits) and Aus (Stat Decs) aside, from other Embassy Income letters witnessed, the Embassies would state something to the effect 'Mr X has shown proof of pensions of £/Euro xxxxxx per annum, being £/Eur xxxxx per month.

The Embassy averaged the 'monthly' income based on the 'annual' income, which allowed for such as 4 weekly or quarterly pensions to be accumulated into the annual figure.

Immigration converted the monthly figure to THB and provided it was above 40/65K, no problem.

 

With Thai bank statements, the average annual income could well exceed the financial requirements, but if the monthly transfer falls below 40/65K then it's an issue.

They, in most cases, take the minimum monthly transfer as 40/65K (no less than per month) as noted on the statement with complete disregard that pensions are not always paid monthly.

 

Regardless of the interpretation argument, they should apply bank statement figures in exactly the same way the Embassies calculated the monthly average, that is, based on the annual figures.

 

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, UKresonant said:

how does 400,000 cover expenses for a year?

 

Very easily if you have no rent, children or vehicle.

[OliverJackson331]

On 9/22/2019 at 5:03 PM, Peter Denis said:

Using an agent to challenge the IO decision in case of denying your extension of stay is an option, but doubt that will be successful. And if successful, having to deal again in future with the officer having his/her decision turned around on your case, might be unpleasant.

Another option when your extension of stay would be denied is to apply for a Non Imm O Visa in a neigbouring country (e.g. in Savannakhet).  On your return, you could then apply for an extension of stay based on that new Visa.  To get that application approved you would only need to show that the last 2 monthly income transfers you made were over +40.000 THB (since it is a new Visa there would be no need for a 12-month history).

But hopefully the officer handling your case beginning of October is not a 'hardliner' and will approve your application (your 18 year history in Thailand for sure will be a bonus-factor).     

I would also be careful with this. It can get expensive if you already have a rejection, and then you use an agent.

 

It's MUCH cheaper/easier to use an agent the first time around, and have them respond to everything.

My buddy tried to do it on his own before (even-though i warned him that he did not meet the requirements). He ended up having a lot of trouble, with his previous agent, and they wanted to charge him a CRAZY price to fix things for him.

Luckily "grace" from @thaivisacentre came to the rescue.

Edited September 24, 2019 by OliverJackson331

[jacko45k]

10 hours ago, OliverJackson331 said:

Luckily "grace" from @thaivisacentre came to the rescue.

Was she asked or did she just pop up into the 'Inbox' as she is prone to do?

[Tanoshi]

10 hours ago, OliverJackson331 said:

My buddy tried to do it on his own before (even-though i warned him that he did not meet the requirements). He ended up having a lot of trouble, with his previous agent, and they wanted to charge him a CRAZY price to fix things for him.

Luckily "grace" from @thaivisacentre came to the rescue.

Guessing your mate lives in Bangkok.

'Grace' obtains a lot of extensions from the Roi Et office.

 

Not much use if you live in Bangkok, a case of 'rescued' from the frying pan, to be thrown in the fire.

[Tanoshi]

23 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Was she asked or did she just pop up into the 'Inbox' as she is prone to do?

She's as annoying as that paperclip 'Clippy' that used to continually pop up when trying to write a document in Word.

'Do you need help writing a letter'

'No, F*** O**'!

Edited September 25, 2019 by Tanoshi

[AYJAYDEE]

Well after reading all these opinions, facts, theories and assumptions the real answer seems obvious. It seems to depend on the office and perhaps even the officer so anyone using the monthly income method is rolling the dice every month. A bank account of 400,000+ baht is the only safe way to go.

[timkeen08]

1 hour ago, AYJAYDEE said:

Well after reading all these opinions, facts, theories and assumptions the real answer seems obvious. It seems to depend on the office and perhaps even the officer so anyone using the monthly income method is rolling the dice every month. A bank account of 400,000+ baht is the only safe way to go.

I agree.  I have the 400k+ but I have direct deposits to cover any exchange variations.  Proving the monthly income is not an issue.

 

The only reason I posted this time was against people telling everyone that the law says this or that when so many have been caught up short in contradiction and I have been told otherwise by my IO.  It is uncommon for me to post anymore but I would hate to see anyone denied an extension because throughout this whole thread some say but, but, but, "it's the law" when in realty people have been turned down.  I go by what my IO says.

 

I found from my few times posting to have no faith in much of what is said on TVF anymore and try to stay out of irrelevant posts.  There is some truthful and good information to be had but usually along with way too many baiters, haters, or people having to prove that they are right no matter what.  Or $m@r♧@$$ spell/word checkers.

 

That is why TVF is usually just a quick scan every day.