Accept pattaya for why the city was created or lose the $£€

[jacko45k]

24 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Obviously went over your head. The sea levels can change quite significantly and the sea can move the beach about.

But not a lot  can be said to change that Thai bashing sentiment.

It is called tides and it certainly doesn't change the height of any piers as you infer. Nor where the beach is.  And you believe planning the Beach Rd drainage project to coincide with peak season is the best of planning?  

[ericthai]

another doom and gloom, been hearing this for 20+ years, every-time there is a little dip in numbers for any reason, Thailand is going down.. Yet here it is still alive and kicking. We westerners doing anything they can to live in Thailand, finding loop holes, paying agents, investing millions, overstaying etc, etc.. 

[Leaver]

6 hours ago, ericthai said:

another doom and gloom, been hearing this for 20+ years, every-time there is a little dip in numbers for any reason, Thailand is going down.. Yet here it is still alive and kicking. We westerners doing anything they can to live in Thailand, finding loop holes, paying agents, investing millions, overstaying etc, etc.. 

Interesting post.

 

I don't think the numbers have gone down, just the money from those numbers.  So, if numbers are the same, or even up, why isn't the revenue from them the same, or increased?  Why is revenue down?

 

It has everything to do with the demographics of tourists Thailand / Pattaya attracts now.  Basically, zero baht tourists.

 

I agree, those westerners with ties here will do anything they can to stay, but they are expats, not tourists.  What about the rapid decline in the western tourists here? 

 

Today's western tourist to Thailand is tomorrow's expat retiree.  If westerners aren't coming here now, they will not be living here in the future, in the numbers we are used to seeing.

 

This is not a doom and gloom post.  Tourist demographics have changed here, no doubt about that.  Pattaya will change to cater for them. 

 

Also, this coming high season will see a mixture of things under Thai control, and a mixture of things outside Thai control, that in my opinion, will see a sharp decline in westerners to Thailand.  To name a few, the strong baht, lower currency exchange, Brexit, visa changes (particularly effecting snow birds) rising competition for the tourist dollar in the region (particularly from Vietnam)

 

 

[Leaver]

21 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Probably not. Rather than upgrade the destination they have downgraded the client base. 

Great way of describing it, jacko45k.  This is exactly what has happened, and what is continuing to happen.

 

In many respects, Thailand reminds me of the Nokia phone company.  How do you go from having the biggest market share, to going broke?

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

Great way of describing it, jacko45k.  This is exactly what has happened, and what is continuing to happen.

It was evident when the Expat Club I attended got kicked out of The Grand Sole Hotel. It was supposed to be scheduled for a complete refurb. That refurb never happened, as they found less discerning guests!

[Leaver]

22 hours ago, jacko45k said:

It was evident when the Expat Club I attended got kicked out of The Grand Sole Hotel. It was supposed to be scheduled for a complete refurb. That refurb never happened, as they found less discerning guests!

You would think after decades of tourism here, and the billions of dollars that it has generated in the province over the years, tourism would be enhanced. 

 

Instead, it's a race to the bottom, where attracting zero baht tourists is the best they can get. 

[shdmn]

6 hours ago, Leaver said:

You would think after decades of tourism here, and the billions of dollars that it has generated in the province over the years, tourism would be enhanced. 

 

Instead, it's a race to the bottom, where attracting zero baht tourists is the best they can get. 

Yes, clearly the relatively new presence of 4/5 star hotels such as Hard Rock, Hilton, and now Grande Center Point at T21, as well as all that other high end hotel development around Soi 1, are clear indicators Pattaya is in a "race to the bottom".  .

[Leaver]

2 hours ago, shdmn said:

Yes, clearly the relatively new presence of 4/5 star hotels such as Hard Rock, Hilton, and now Grande Center Point at T21, as well as all that other high end hotel development around Soi 1, are clear indicators Pattaya is in a "race to the bottom".  .

The premise of your argument is, "build it and they will come." 

 

Well, they have been built, and the tourists are coming, no doubt about about it, just not the tourists that can / will spend money in the places you mention, except for the T21 food court.

 

On the other hand, 7/11's and Family Marts are booming.  ????

[shdmn]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

The premise of your argument is, "build it and they will come." 

 

Well, they have been built, and the tourists are coming, no doubt about about it, just not the tourists that can / will spend money in the places you mention, except for the T21 food court.

 

On the other hand, 7/11's and Family Marts are booming.  ????

Yea, they are just building those mulitmillion dollar developments for show.  Just winging it and hoping for the best.  And, using your logic, they are just sitting empty all the time.  Years and years now for many of them.  Are you even in Pattaya?  I mean really in Pattaya with a real life?  Not just sitting at some bar at 9am having a beer for breakfast, never leaving the farang ghetto of Soi Buakao, bitching about how it's not as good as it used to be because the girls don't say hello hansum man anymore.

[kingofthemountain]

2 hours ago, shdmn said:

Yea, they are just building those mulitmillion dollar developments for show.  Just winging it and hoping for the best.  And, using your logic, they are just sitting empty all the time.  Years and years now for many of them.  Are you even in Pattaya?  I mean really in Pattaya with a real life?  Not just sitting at some bar at 9am having a beer for breakfast, never leaving the farang ghetto of Soi Buakao, bitching about how it's not as good as it used to be because the girls don't say hello hansum man anymore.

I was yesterday evening in the area of those multimillions developments.

The lights opens at the rooms windows around 19\20 pm are a good reflect of the occupation rate

of the hotels. in this case beetween 10 and 40%. But most of the restaurants in the area was empty

as usual, and nobody in the streets in the area. Not even to mention the mail The Bay which have simply never opened.

So yes sometimes they invest hoping for the best, based on TAT numbers or others silly data

or just hoping in a future rush of the eventualy becoming chinese middle class, who know?

[jacko45k]

12 hours ago, shdmn said:

Yes, clearly the relatively new presence of 4/5 star hotels such as Hard Rock, Hilton, and now Grande Center Point at T21, as well as all that other high end hotel development around Soi 1, are clear indicators Pattaya is in a "race to the bottom".  .

Relatively new,!!! Hard Rock??? It wasn't even new when it was new decades ago, it was the old crappy Merlin Hotel! Great View of the dug up Beach Road!

[morrobay]

https://www.amazon.com/Night-Market-Cultures-Economic-Miracle/dp/0415914299

 

This is a good academic work on the subject, before all the developers came into Pattaya riding piggyback on the nightlife scene. And it remains to be scene if all this over development can be supported by Indian/Chinese mass tourism. N/ Pattaya and now even square blocks in the Naklua Soi 20, 22, 24 area where  before were leafy 2 story horizontal resorts , and now leveled.   

[Leaver]

14 hours ago, shdmn said:

Yea, they are just building those mulitmillion dollar developments for show.  Just winging it and hoping for the best.  And, using your logic, they are just sitting empty all the time.  Years and years now for many of them.  Are you even in Pattaya?  I mean really in Pattaya with a real life?  Not just sitting at some bar at 9am having a beer for breakfast, never leaving the farang ghetto of Soi Buakao, bitching about how it's not as good as it used to be because the girls don't say hello hansum man anymore.

Another member has beaten me to it, but would you care to comment on the occupancy rates of these places? 

 

Yes, I am in Pattaya, and I know what I see, and why I am seeing it.  Speaking to business owners, they confirm that customer numbers are way down.

[Rimmer]

A flame and a reply has been removed

[Leaver]

On 9/28/2019 at 1:47 PM, morrobay said:

https://www.amazon.com/Night-Market-Cultures-Economic-Miracle/dp/0415914299

 

This is a good academic work on the subject, before all the developers came into Pattaya riding piggyback on the nightlife scene. And it remains to be scene if all this over development can be supported by Indian/Chinese mass tourism. N/ Pattaya and now even square blocks in the Naklua Soi 20, 22, 24 area where  before were leafy 2 story horizontal resorts , and now leveled.   

Mass package holiday tourism means more hotel rooms.  Whilst they may not drink, and have cheap eats, they do need accommodation.  However, Chinese run hotels will cater for them, and with the holiday paid for in China, any profits don't even get to Thailand.  Some 300 baht a day room cleaners and cooks see some employment, and that's about it.  

Hardly the hotel boom many here believe.  There's a reason why they are called zero baht tourists.

[gk10002000]

On 9/20/2019 at 12:51 PM, sunnyboy2018 said:

You may have a point.  They should have left it alone. I DO NOT WANT A FAMILY RESORT! I dont want kids, dogs, couples with kids, families, baby changing tables, animal activists, evengelicals, feminists etc etc

I agree with you about not wanting a family resort.  I don't want more big malls.  The Avenue was a disaster.  Central Plaza is not why I go to Pattaya.  I got plenty of malls in the USA.  I don't shop or buy anything in those places.  Now a stroll through a mall is nice now and then, and I will admit that terminal 21 looks nice.  But I was quite content with Big C down by the dolphin and the Garden Mall.   And of course losing Carre 4 was sad as they did carry stuff and brands that Big C did not.    Pattaya circa 2004 had all that I needed or wanted.  But small cities rarely stay small.  But that condo glut is obscene.  The Russian invasion did not help at all.  Now the Indian and Chinese hordes will run their course and who knows what will be left.  I think it is clear that the Chinese are buying up hotels, and renting them to their own Chinese tour groups.  That does not profit the local economy or average working Thai very much.  If the new hotels were improving infrastructure and installing and building sewer treatment plants, etc.  then fine.  But that is not happening.  All that is happening is more and more dirty water and waste gets pumped into the gulf.  And who knows what is happening to all the material physical garbage and trash.  A family place.. yet you can't swim in the water it is so filthy?

 

 

[Leaver]

11 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

I think it is clear that the Chinese are buying up hotels, and renting them to their own Chinese tour groups.  That does not profit the local economy or average working Thai very much.  If the new hotels were improving infrastructure and installing and building sewer treatment plants, etc.  then fine.  But that is not happening.  All that is happening is more and more dirty water and waste gets pumped into the gulf. 

Check out the Cambodia forum for a thread on what the Chinese have done to Sihanoukville.

 

Sure, no casinos here, but it appears the Thai's are now in a position where they must accept zero baht tourism, or Pattaya, and other tourist areas in Thailand, become ghost towns. 

 

You are correct, one way or another, most of the profits from mass package holiday tourism either remain in China, or are repatriated back to China. 

 

As you say, the pressure that the mass package holiday tourism model puts on infrastructure, and the environment, is huge. 

[kinyara]

On 9/30/2019 at 7:12 PM, Leaver said:

Check out the Cambodia forum for a thread on what the Chinese have done to Sihanoukville.

 

Sure, no casinos here, but it appears the Thai's are now in a position where they must accept zero baht tourism, or Pattaya, and other tourist areas in Thailand, become ghost towns. 

 

You are correct, one way or another, most of the profits from mass package holiday tourism either remain in China, or are repatriated back to China. 

 

As you say, the pressure that the mass package holiday tourism model puts on infrastructure, and the environment, is huge. 

Yep, we've all seen thousands of Chinese workers fly in to Pattaya to knock up these hotels that never existed in the past.  " Check out the Cambodia forum " - that about sums your real world knowledge of the region up. Have you ever actually been to Sihanoukville ?  

 

"Thai's are now in a position where they must accept zero baht tourism.  Sounds like something you also read in an internet forum.

 

" Most of the profits from mass package holiday tourism either remain in China, or are repatriated back in China "  Aye ok Einstein.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[elliss]

On 9/21/2019 at 5:04 AM, balo said:

Welcome to Thaivisa stranger! Anything else you want to add? 

 

 Wow , 8 posts under his belt ,  a font of krap.  Another preacher on TVF.

 

   Fyi ,  American soldiers , taking RnR , from the Nam war , brought money big into Pattaya .

    Thai ladies , provided their services ,  Thailand welcomed the Dollar .   Much better than a life of poverty..

    US, army  built the main road infrastructure , rail networks , and airports,  and more ...

 

 

[metisdead]

Some posts containing inappropriate language have been removed. 

 

Some posts using unusual fonts have been removed:

 

 Forum Netiquette

 

1. Please do not post in all capital letters, bold, unusual fonts, sizes, colors or use unusually large emoticons. It can be difficult to read.

[shdmn]

Over priced Food Park in Central Festival totally empty.  Only Asian and Indian low end tourists.  Those Farangs you see in this picture were photoshopped in to fill in the TOTALLY empty food court.  All high end hotels empty.  Pattaya totally doomed!

 

 

[johng]

29 minutes ago, shdmn said:

Over priced Food Park in Central Festival

Its certainly overpriced !  much cheaper at Terminal 21,Big C and Tesco..

Have the empty shops and old food court location re-opened yet ?

[shdmn]

27 minutes ago, johng said:

Its certainly overpriced !  much cheaper at Terminal 21,Big C and Tesco..

Have the empty shops and old food court location re-opened yet ?

What empty shops?  The old food court is still completely covered with a temporary wall.  So it's a complete mystery what is going on behind there. I heard from someone who heard from someone who knows someone involved (in other words, take with a big grain of salt), that the newly renovated food court in the basement will be opening back up this month (October) sometime.   No idea what will happening with that Food Park in the basement when the food court opens back up but their prices are a complete rip off.  120baht for Kao Man Gai is at least double the normal price just about anywhere else.

 

That is why almost all the Russians now go to T21 food court.  If the newly renovated food court in the basement of Central has competitive prices to T21 then I'm sure so people will come back. Hard to see how they can compete with T21 food court prices though.

[johng]

16 hours ago, shdmn said:

What empty shops?

The empty shops also behind the "temporary walls"

[petermik]

7 hours ago, johng said:

The empty shops also behind the "temporary walls"

And behind those hoardings nothing is going on....just a large empty space....I,ve seen it

[shdmn]

39 minutes ago, petermik said:

And behind those hoardings nothing is going on....just a large empty space....I,ve seen it

See those words on your picture of the wall?  "New experience coming soon" with pictures of food.  I am told it will be another reasonably priced food court like before, just renovated, whatever that means.  My guess it is being done in response to the T21 food court.

[shdmn]

I talked to the manager of my mid range mid size hotel today.  They said they are about 80% full right now (during super duper low season). They said it's above average for them for this time of year. I have not seen any Asians or Indians in the lobby.  Mostly just European looking Farangs.

 

But...I saw a couple empty beer bars on some soi somewhere last night so Pattaya is clearly totally dead, totally empty, totally doomed. Only low end Asians and Indians come here now, all non-budget hotels empty, yup you betcha!

[Songkran18]

Maybe they should shut down Pattaya like they're doing at Maya Bay. 555 !  I hear it's recuperating nicely these last few years without the Chinese hordes.

 

Kidding aside, my first visit to Pattaya was last year .........  Please don't kill me I'm not as old as some of you blokes with decade old references. I visited again this past June. 

 

The one thing that's hard  for me  to get over is Pattaya Bay is very appealing to the eye. And I've come across some impressive sunsets on most evening there. It's a shame it doesn't have any "beach life" like it might have back in the day. That aspect of Pattaya, is a lost marketing asset that would have at least improved the appearance and development of Beach Rd, and maybe spread inland a bit.

 

Maybe it's a naive thought, but what was a nice beach, has been lost to mismanagement and greed. I doubt the beach would have taken over what  Pattaya is more renowned. It would've been nice.

 

As for the other qualms mentioned here - I can relate. I live in Miami Beach and we get the same flood issues and brown sewage spilling into the beach. It's also a very mismanaged and corrupt city. To each his own paradise ..... 

 

 

 

[champers]

On 9/30/2019 at 10:32 AM, Leaver said:

Mass package holiday tourism means more hotel rooms.  Whilst they may not drink, and have cheap eats, they do need accommodation.  However, Chinese run hotels will cater for them, and with the holiday paid for in China, any profits don't even get to Thailand.  Some 300 baht a day room cleaners and cooks see some employment, and that's about it.  

Hardly the hotel boom many here believe.  There's a reason why they are called zero baht tourists.

Where are these mythical Chinese run hotels? Name them. Name one.

[Leaver]

34 minutes ago, champers said:

Where are these mythical Chinese run hotels? Name them. Name one.

I believe this Chinese company is the biggest for hotels in Thailand, but there smaller ones, which a quick Google will reveal.

 

http://destinationthailandnews.com/news/business-news/plateno-group-surges-as-most-influential-chinese-hotel-brand-in-thailand-globally.html

 

"Now, Plateno plans on opening a property in the seaside resort town of Pattaya in early 2019, with many other projects being planned in Thailand with local investors and developers."