UK Visitor Visa for Prospective Wife - Is this plan any good?

[MickyMoo]

I live and work in the UK and I met a woman in Thailand over 2 years ago. We plan to marry in future, but we want to spend some time living together to check compatibility and whether she is happy living in the UK etc. We've met many times before in Thailand and other Asian Countries and she has also been to the UK for 2 weeks in July 2018 on a 6 month visitor visa that we didn't have any trouble at all with.

 

The plan is for her to come to stay with me for a while, ideally as long as possible before we decide to take the plunge and I'm wondering what is the best route to take.

 

She is a civil servant and is limited to the amount of leave she can take - maybe 3 weeks max. For her to come here for any extended period, she would have to resign.

 

I've read the Home Office Visit guideline/policy document carefully and I know that there are a few pitfalls in trying to use a Visit Visa to effectively live in the UK.

 

My thinking is that she could apply for a 2 year visitor visa with an initial travel period of 3 weeks. If she's happy enough to proceed, then she would return to Thailand, take a month or two to get all of her affairs in order including resigning from her job, and then return to the UK, staying for maybe 6 months and take it from there regards marriage. I'm able to maintain her through this time, that's not a problem. She doesn't need to work or break any rules. There is the worry that, upon return the second time, her material circumstances would have changed in that she then doesn't have a job to return to. I'm guessing there is a risk that, if questioned too closely by an ECO, that could end with entry refusal.

 

Is anyone able to help quantify the various risks in this plan or point out the flaws? Can anyone think of a better plan?

 

[theoldgit]

It’s not that there are pitfalls with using a visit visa to effectively live in the UK, that’s not what visit visas are for, they’re designed for visits, trips, holidays, call them what you may.

Entry Clearance Officers are specifically advised to ensure that applicants don’t use successive visits to effectively live in the UK for extended periods. Likewise Border Force Officers are instructed to look out for this and to cancel visas if they suspect this is being attempted, no doubt your research has shown this.

As a Civil Servant she is likely to be granted another six month visit visa on her second application, maybe not a visa with a two validity unless she can convince the ECO that she has compelling reasons to visit regularly, your research would have mentioned the requirements.

If she attempted to live in the UK for extended periods having used her employment as a reason to return in her visa application she is in fact breaking the rules and leaving herself wide open to being refused admission and having her visa cancelled.

It’s entirely up to you and your prospective wife, but I would urge you to rethink your strategy, maybe you live here.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

[MickyMoo]

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to me. You’re obviously well researched and knowledgeable yourself, so I appreciate the advice.

 

Now I’m not trying to play with words here, because I’m seeking real advice rather than a validation of what I want to hear; I do feel however that this is a genuine visit (albeit extended) with a genuine intention to return if she doesn’t like it here....or indeed doesn’t like me ????. If we decide to go further, then we’ll apply for the necessary visas when the time comes.

 

I understand the point you are making regards returning for her employment and here indeed, I would admit to a certain degree of licence with my words and our intent. Technically at the time of making the application, she is returning after the initial 3 weeks visit and is returning to her job. But that is a circumstance that would change during the visa validity period and that change is a risk that I am finding it difficult to quantify in terms of subsequent visits on the same visa.

 

Why do you think that a 2 year visit visa route would be unfeasible? Definitely not saying you’re wrong, but just that I didn’t come across anything yet that specifically told me this. The circumstances would essentially boil down to the fact that we have an ongoing relationship.

[theoldgit]

It's not me that the applicant has to convince the decision maker that she's a genuine visitor, it's the Entry Clearance Officer and Border Force Officer that will need to be convinced.

You state that your girlfriend wants to visit for an extended period of time, and whilst I understand your reasoning, as I say it's not me she needs to convince, that's not what a visit visa is designed for, in fact there is no visa that is suitable for what you have in mind.
She's already had a visit visa and complied with the relevent rules, so another visa will more than likely be granted, even a longer term visa given that she's a Civil Servant in Thailand who will no doubt provide evidence that she's expected back to work at the end of her trip; where she may face problems, either at the visa application stage or at the UK Border is the fact that she would have to leave her employment if she planned to stay in the UK for the extended period you describe. 

Leaving her employment after her visa has been granted would be regarded as a material change of circumstances and could result in her visa being cancelled if it was picked up by the Border Force Officer at the UK Border. 

I'm not trying to sound alarmist, but what you have in mind does have dangers, she may get away with it, she probably would, but is she's refused entry it could well cause her problems in the future, if she extended her stay, not illegal, but it could bring her credibilty into question.
At the end of the day you guys must decide it the benefits outweigh the dangers.

In your research did you read the guidance issued to ECO's and BFO's particularly from page 15, which describes the instructions for assessing an applicants genuneness and credibility  

Visit-guidance-v7.0EXT.PDF

[chickenslegs]

Is it possible for a Thai civil servant to be granted an extended leave of absence, unpaid leave?

 

If so, it would be a better option than quitting her job, and might satisfy the UK Immigration.

 

[hobobo]

On 10/2/2019 at 8:40 PM, chickenslegs said:

Is it possible for a Thai civil servant to be granted an extended leave of absence, unpaid leave?

 

If so, it would be a better option than quitting her job, and might satisfy the UK Immigration.

 

Worth looking into, as well as negotiating with the employer for a year's sabbatical leave? That would depend on her position in the Civil Service.

[blazes]

I know nothing about what others have spoken intelligently and eloquently about in the area of Visa bureaucracy.

 

As someone who married a Thai and brought her (successfully) to my country, where we now live "happily ever after", I would simply ask you to consider seriously what you seem to be taking for granted right now:  

 

you do not really need to live together in either UK or Thailand in order to discover whether you are suited to each other.  Most people, contemplating marriage, will know, exactly, whether they are suited to each other.  If there is the slightest doubt (no matter what the cause) about your compatibility, DO NOT DO IT. (get married)

Sorry, but that is just stating the bleeding obvious.  Either you know whether you love this woman (and she you) or you do not.  No matter your age, take it from an old timer (thrice married) like me:  any doubt you have should have NOTHING to do with whether she can live in UK.  The doubt, if any, should only be as a result of the kind of interaction all couples know and  practice.

 

And if she gets into the UK for the extended period, make sure she gets a job of some kind....she will need something to prevent boredom setting in.   A job which allows her to earn enough money to give her a sense of independence.  (Of course, your ages will skew my argument a bit.)

Good luck.

[UKresonant]

Has she got enough years in the civil service, to qualify for her government pension and the like?

Get a longer term visitor visa certainly, but she should visit in the middle of winter first! I would continue with visits to each other for longer. Could she come to the UK for 2.5 weeks and you fly back to Thailand with her for 2.5weeks, for now.

My wife thinks it's too cold in Sept/Oct in the UK, never mind January...

[theoldgit]

Off topic post removed, the OP is seeking advice regarding a visa application, not relationship advice.

[rasg]

17 hours ago, UKresonant said:

My wife thinks it's too cold in Sept/Oct in the UK, never mind January...

Yet my wife loves the snow and the change of seasons. If it's cold she wears lots of layers. She recently came back from 3 weeks in Thailand. She said she likes the weather here in the UK much better than Thailand.

 

Eight months was more than enough for us to find out that we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together although I had three visits to Thailand before she came here on a VV. A sabbatical sounds like a great idea if a visit visa doesn't suit.

[jimn]

If you are using a standard visit visa it doesn't matter if you are married or not, she will be treated the same either way. Your plan to get a 2 year visa and for her to visit for 3 weeks and then another 6 months is a good idea but it takes you over the 180 days in any 12 month period, an unofficial guideline that I know they look at. FYI, my wife has been visiting the UK with me for 4.5 months every year since 2013. Firstly on a series of 1 year visas and now on a 5 year visa that ends in May 2021. She has never had a problem entering the country and the immigration officers just ask her a few general questions before stamping her in and saying "enjoy your visit".

[theoldgit]

29 minutes ago, jimn said:

Your plan to get a 2 year visa and for her to visit for 3 weeks and then another 6 months is a good idea but it takes you over the 180 days in any 12 month period, an unofficial guideline that I know they look at. 

The Home Office guidlines to their staff actually say "There is no specified maximum period which an individual can spend in the UK in any period such as ‘6 months in 12 months’. However, if it is clear from an individual’s travel history that they are making the UK their home you should refuse their application", it would be helpful if you could provide the evidence of your "unofficial guidline" that you know they look at.
As has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, the ECO's do look at the bigger picture and Border Force Officers do take into account the passengers travel history when deciding whether to land them.

[jimn]

11 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

The Home Office guidlines to their staff actually say "There is no specified maximum period which an individual can spend in the UK in any period such as ‘6 months in 12 months’. However, if it is clear from an individual’s travel history that they are making the UK their home you should refuse their application", it would be helpful if you could provide the evidence of your "unofficial guidline" that you know they look at.
As has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, the ECO's do look at the bigger picture and Border Force Officers do take into account the passengers travel history when deciding whether to land them.

I wont get into arguing the point with you @theoldgit, because I know you are the resident expert on this forum and I respect that. However I will make 2 observations. (1) From experience. In Sept 2013 my wife (then gf) was granted a 6 month visit visa, she stayed from mid Sept 2013 to mid January 2014 a period of 4 months. In April 2014 she applied again to visit from May 2014 to Sept 2014 and was refused. I cant remember the exact wording but it was clear that it was refused because if granted she would have ended up staying longer than 180 days in a 12 month period. (2) On the visa it clearly states 180 days max on the 1 year visa. I dont know if you know, but I have never seen a post from anyone who has been able to use consecutive visit visas to spend more than 180 days in a 12 month period. In reality in my opinion Home Office guidlines are just guidelines. If the ECO is of the opinion one is using successive visits to deny a visa it is usually because one is trying to spend more than 180 days in the country. So just because it is not stated as a guideline doesn't mean that the ECO doesn't use it as a guide.

[rasg]

Thanks for this. You have just said exactly what I have been saying for a while.

 

I went and grabbed my wife's passport and went back to her six month VV and her two year VV. Both have Duration - 180 days on each visa in the top right hand corner. Both visas granted in 2015.

 

She stayed for 18 weeks arriving on the 1st July and went home in October. She then applied for the two year visa to start on the 1st December. She finally went home on the 180th day that she was allowed to be here according to the 180 days in her visa.

 

Glad she did as she went back with everything to apply for a settlement (fiancée) visa apart from her TB certificate which she went for the day after she arrived in Bangkok. Had she overrun the 180 days I wonder what could have happened when she arrived back in the UK 15 days later. A guess would be nothing if it had been a day or so but you simply don't know.

 

Like you I have never heard of anybody who has stayed longer but I wasn't willing to take the chance. It seems that the 180 days is a rule according to the two visit visas my wife had and not a guideline at all.

[theoldgit]

6 hours ago, rasg said:

Thanks for this. You have just said exactly what I have been saying for a while.

 

I went and grabbed my wife's passport and went back to her six month VV and her two year VV. Both have Duration - 180 days on each visa in the top right hand corner. Both visas granted in 2015.

 

She stayed for 18 weeks arriving on the 1st July and went home in October. She then applied for the two year visa to start on the 1st December. She finally went home on the 180th day that she was allowed to be here according to the 180 days in her visa.

 

Glad she did as she went back with everything to apply for a settlement (fiancée) visa apart from her TB certificate which she went for the day after she arrived in Bangkok. Had she overrun the 180 days I wonder what could have happened when she arrived back in the UK 15 days later. A guess would be nothing if it had been a day or so but you simply don't know.

 

Like you I have never heard of anybody who has stayed longer but I wasn't willing to take the chance. It seems that the 180 days is a rule according to the two visit visas my wife had and not a guideline at all.

I'm sorry but I don't follow your thinking, your wifes travel choices were just that, her choices, not a rule or even a guidline, you "wondering what could have happened" doesn't mean there there is a rule, official or unofficial, and you not wanting to take a chance doesn't alter that fact.
I'm going to leave it there, but the fact remains that the Home Office Guidance to Entry Clearance and Border Force Officers, the link to which I provided earlier, is very clear in advising that no such rule exsists.

 

[rasg]

I see this on page 17 but how do you square this?

 

From what I can see there has never been a need for a guideline as a visit visa is very specific as it shows on the visa, the maximum number of days allowed for a trip.

 

If somebody with a visit visa longer than six months tries to re-enter the UK a few weeks later after a 180 day trip they will be returned to Thailand. Maybe an ECO has some leeway to allow a visa holder to stay but with the 180 maximum stated on the visa my guess is it's unlikely. Since 2015 hanging around various Thai forums I have never heard of anybody who has been allowed to stay longer.

 

 

[theoldgit]

I'm sorry but there's nothing for me to square, that visa has a two year validity and allows the holder to seek admission at a UK Border for a visit of up to 180 days, which is the maximum time a visitor can stay in the UK on a single visit, which you have confirmed

It doesn't say that the holder can only stay in the UK for 180 days in a 12 month period, as you're aware longer term visa holders needed prove they need to make repeat visits over a longer period and can stay for a maximum of 6 months on each visit over the 2, 5 or 10 year validity of the visa, though as I've pointed out a couple of times Border Force Officer's must be satisfied on each visit that a traveller isn't attempting live in the UK for long periods of time through frequent or successive visits but, as you've read, there is no 180 day in a 12 month period rule.

You may not have identified anybody staying in the UK for more than 180 days in a twelve month period in your research, but I can assure you that people do so.