Compulsory Health insurance for 0-A visa applicants effective 31st October

[Lovethailandelite]

7 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

Not likely to be easy or simple to do that - they want this document to be completed and signed (by Directors) by the insurance company :  http://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

 

Many of the company's here longstay.tgia.org are also world wide International company's with a subsidiary company in Thailand. For those that have International Health policy's with one of those company's AXA, AETNA etc I doubt it would be an issue to get that form filled in. They certainly are not going to want to lose clients spending thousands of pounds a year on 1st Class International Health cover over filling a form in.

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

 

Interestingly the site says "Each applicant, including spouse and children, must have their own Health Insurance Certificate to present during visa application process. "

http://longstay.tgia.org/home/guidelineox

 

NOT at entry.

 

So again, conflicting information/guidance.

Oops, sorry that was the O-X page. The O-A page of the guidelines says nothing about when the proof must be shown. 

 

It does say (hold on to your hat!):

 

First year, all applicants can buy health insurance from insurance companies in their owned countries or authorized insurance company in Thailand. When the applicants want to renew the visa, the applicants must buy insurance from authorized insurance companies in Thailand only

[UKresonant]

13 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

If you have a foreign insurance policy you have to get the insurance company to provide a certificate of insurance:

http://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

IMO the chances of getting an insurance company to complete this Thai document are zero.

Insurance companies will only issue their own certificate of insurance (legal reasons).

 

My read of the process is that it is not the embassy/consulate that requires the insurance when you apply for an O-A.  You do not have to buy 70K Baht insurance before getting the Visa approved. What is required is that on the day you arrive you must provide proof to the IO that you have the minimum required insurance for 12 months from that day, and from the approved providers, or a certificate of insurance document (see above).

 

 

I see what you mean, unlikely they are going to fill out that, you would get the foreign companies insurance cert e-mailed to you, and that would be it. 

Guess the O-A is a dead duck as a ME visa option. 

 

[Pib]

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Even if willing to complete it I see 2 problems:

 

1 - Many policies have a single maximum, not separate ones for in and outpatient (especially those whose OPD cover is for certain things only).

 

2 - Insurance premiums are typically annual, policies are issued for 1 year. So to obtain it before coming and still have it valid for 12 months as of the day of entry will be difficult. In addition, for people who already have  ongoing insurance, the renewal date could be anytime during the year.

And what about retired military folks like US retired military who have Tricare coverage....basically there is no policy begin and end date...basically unlimited inpatient and outpatient coverage....no policy number as it tied to your social security/DOD number....etc.  And asking a US govt Tricare rep to complete such a document would surely be greeted with a big NO!

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Pib

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Many of the company's here longstay.tgia.org are also world wide International company's with a subsidiary company in Thailand. For those that have International Health policy's with one of those company's AXA, AETNA etc I doubt it would be an issue to get that form filled in. They certainly are not going to want to lose clients spending thousands of pounds a year on 1st Class International Health cover over filling a form in.

 

I would not count on that, the relationship between the international companies and their Thai "subsidiaries" is not as close as you might think. really different companies.

 

Add to that the clause I posted above, which is disasterous.

 

 

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

And what about retired military folks like US retired military who have Tricare coverage....basically there is no policy begin and end date...basically unlimited inpatient and outpatient coverage....no policy number as it tied to your social security/DOD number....etc.  And asking a US govt Tricare rep to complete such a document would surely be greeted with a big NO!

 

yes, and anyway it appears foreign policy accepted only for the initial year, at least that is what the longstay site says.

 

People covered by Thai Social Security likewise don't have "policies". Nor a maximum cap on coverage. Not a few people choosing to retire in Thailand formerly worked here and thus have SS cover.

 

The cost of these "long stay" policies -- for completely inadequate cover - is about the same as for an Elite Visa for older retirees.

[Tanoshi]

6 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

1 - Many policies have a single maximum, not separate ones for in and outpatient (especially those whose OPD cover is for certain things only).

These policies are specifically designed to meet the medical coverage required for the O-A Visa.

They are only available from one of 13 companies listed in the scheme.

https://longstay.tgia.org/home/companiesoa

 

10 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

2 - Insurance premiums are typically annual, policies are issued for 1 year. So to obtain it before coming and still have it valid for 12 months as of the day of entry will be difficult. In addition, for people who already have  ongoing insurance, the renewal date could be anytime during the year.

These policies specifically written to meet the O-A requirements, could well have a clause stating the Policy becomes effective as of the first date of entry to Thailand (not the purchase date).

[CharlieH]

Reported off topic post removed.

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

These policies are specifically designed to meet the medical coverage required for the O-A Visa.

They are only available from one of 13 companies listed in the scheme.

https://longstay.tgia.org/home/companiesoa

 

These policies specifically written to meet the O-A requirements, could well have a clause stating the Policy becomes effective as of the first date of entry to Thailand (not the purchase date).

 

Yes, I know these policies are specifically written to meet TI requirements.

 

The problem is they are dreadful policies, poorly designed with completely inadequate levels of cover and grossly overpriced (inevitable when you design a product solely for the elderly).

 

Meanwhile people with real, meaningful insurance policies are excluded. Ridiculous.

 

No one in their right mind is going to cancel a "real" policy that they have held for years and provides ample cover. And who on earth, already having such insurance, is going to spend that kind of money for a second, largely useless, policy? Might as well just pay for an Elite Visa.

 

Or go elsewhere.

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Yes, I know these policies are specifically written to meet TI requirements.

 

The problem is they are dreadful policies, poorly designed with completely inadequate levels of cover and grossly overpriced (inevitable when you design a product solely for the elderly).

 

Meanwhile people with real, meaningful insurance policies are excluded. Ridiculous.

 

No one in their right mind is going to cancel a "real" policy that they have held for years and provides ample cover. And who on earth, already having such insurance, is going to spend that kind of money for a second, largely useless, policy? Might as well just pay for an Elite Visa.

 

Or go elsewhere.

I agree 100% with your sentiments.

 

I posted some time ago Immigration and the Government are pushing retirees to get extensions based on retirement and deposit your funds in a Thai bank.

[madmen]

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Yes, I know these policies are specifically written to meet TI requirements.

 

The problem is they are dreadful policies, poorly designed with completely inadequate levels of cover and grossly overpriced (inevitable when you design a product solely for the elderly).

 

Meanwhile people with real, meaningful insurance policies are excluded. Ridiculous.

 

No one in their right mind is going to cancel a "real" policy that they have held for years and provides ample cover. And who on earth, already having such insurance, is going to spend that kind of money for a second, largely useless, policy? Might as well just pay for an Elite Visa.

 

Or go elsewhere.

How many people will it really effect? Most of the majority are on retirement extension

I suspect the number would be tiny

[AussieBob18]

32 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Many of the company's here longstay.tgia.org are also world wide International company's with a subsidiary company in Thailand. For those that have International Health policy's with one of those company's AXA, AETNA etc I doubt it would be an issue to get that form filled in. They certainly are not going to want to lose clients spending thousands of pounds a year on 1st Class International Health cover over filling a form in.

Perhaps, but the problem will be the legals.  No corporate lawyer will agree to the clauses which are cut and paste from the Thai regulation - they cannot acceed to Thai regulations - massive insurance and indembnity complications. And the Directors of any insurance company are not going to sign off such a document.  That point alone shows how little they have thought this through - did I just say that ????- 'thought it through' - there aint any Thai translation for those words - like for 'planning ahead'. 

[Lovethailandelite]

33 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

I would not count on that, the relationship between the international companies and their Thai "subsidiaries" is not as close as you might think. really different companies.

 

Add to that the clause I posted above, which is disasterous.

 

 

It appears that the form confirming Health Insurance policy is also set to apply for the visa

Foreign Insurance Certificate for Alien to apply for Non-Immigrant Visa Type O-A (Period not exceeding 1 Year) in accordance with the Cabinet Resolution, dated 2 April B.E. 2562 (2019) Insurance Policy Title……………………….……………….

https://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

[JDGRUEN]

5 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Hi @ubonjoe

 

Can I ask for some clarification? The police order language is unclear to me.

 

Is this for new O-A Long Stay applicants only? I think yes, but...

 

I am currently in the second year of a Non-Imm O-A Long Stay; I am using a multi entry stamp which is valid until July 2020. Am I okay until July 2020?

 

Further, I need to return to my Canada in a day or so for a family emergency, but will return Oct 23 or so. Will I be required to show health insurance upon my return? Again, I think 'no', but thought that I would ask.

 

Thanks in advance for your assistance and endless patience!

 

Cheers

While you have the best Visa choice - Non Imm O-A Multi-Entry. The Multi-Entry aspect only applies to the First Year of the O-A Visa. During the Second Year of Stay (made available by a simple Exit and Re-entry into Thailand just before the First year Expiry Date) the Multi-Entry aspect goes away. At that time you must buy a reentry permit in order to leave Thailand and preserve you status. 

And this required insurance order is for NEW issues of the O-A Visa.

 

Also Folks... If you do not have an O-A Visa sticker in your passport bought at a Thai Consulate / Embassy in your Home Country - then this Insurance mandate Does Not apply to you. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by JDGRUEN

[Pib]

9 minutes ago, madmen said:

How many people will it really effect? Most of the majority are on retirement extension

I suspect the number would be tiny

I bet a lot of folks use Non-OAs based on the posts I've read over the years. 

 

And what makes it bad is immigration could wake-up tomorrow and decide since non-OAs and extensions of stay are really the same thing---both long stays of 1 year---we need to apply the medical insurance rule to extensions also....just all one year long stays regardless of what their official names are.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, Pib said:

I bet a lot of folks use Non-OAs based on the posts I've read over the years. 

 

And what makes it bad is immigration could wake-up tomorrow and decide since non-OAs and extensions of stay are really the same thing---both long stays of 1 year---we need to apply the medical insurance rule to extensions also....just all one year long stays regardless of what their official names are.

 

The EN translation of the Police Order that TVF posted in their own thread on this subject appears to include the insurance requirement (criteria #6) for O-A recipients in the broader document/section about retirement extensions of stay... not visas....

 

So the implication would seem to be, apart from whatever the MFA may end up doing with actual O-A applications, is that if you're applying for a retirement extension of stay with an O-A as your underlying visa, then the new insurance requirement would apply to your retirement extension.

 

 

[UKresonant]

50 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

These policies specifically written to meet the O-A requirements, could well have a clause stating the Policy becomes effective as of the first date of entry to Thailand (not the purchase date).

So would that be effective counting down your number of days in?

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by UKresonant

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The EN translation of the Police Order that TVF posted in their own thread on this subject appears to include the insurance requirement (criteria #6) for O-A recipients in the broader document/section about retirement extensions of stay... not visas....

That translation is part of the immigration announcement. 

It in no way applies to an extension of stay after your OA visa has expired and are extending the last entry from it.

You would just be using it for the required non immigrant visa entry needed to apply for an extension of stay.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That translation was is part of the immigration announcement. 

It in no way applies to an extension of stay after your OA visa has expired and are extending the last entry from it.

You would just be using it for the required non immigrant visa entry needed to apply for an extension of stay.

So why then would they have included the criteria #6 health insurance language as part of the broader list of requirements for granting retirement extensions of stay, right alongside the 800K bank deposit requirement, etc etc?

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

So why then would they have included the criteria #6 health insurance language as part of the broader list of requirements for granting retirement extensions of stay?

 

yea...that's like I mentioned before about why did they even include it in the 2.22 Retirement Extension of Stay area of the police order unless it impacted folks who were trying to transition from their expiring Non-OA Visa to an Extension of Stay.

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

So why then would they have included the criteria #6 health insurance language as part of the broader list of requirements for granting retirement extensions of stay?

I would guess they did not want to add another clause to the police order titled in case of retirement to confuse things anymore than they already are.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

yea...that's like I mentioned before about why did they even include it in the 2.22 Retirement Extension of Stay area of the police order unless it impacted folks who were trying to transition from their expiring Non-OA Visa to an Extension of Stay.

 

If it was just for new O-A applicants period, then why does Immigration even need to get involved at all....

 

MFA simply could say on their own, if you want to apply for a new O-A visa from Oct. 31 onward, you have to meet the insurance requirement. No insurance, no visa, period.

 

Immigration themselves don't grant O-A visas, AFAIK....

Edited October 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

I would guess they did not want to add another clause to the police order titled in case of retirement to confuse things anymore than they already are.

 

 

Joe, I'd like to believe what you're saying. But what you're suggesting seems to plainly be the opposite of what their language and document actually says...

 

If you have some factual basis or authoritative source for being certain they do NOT intend to enforce this against future retirement extensions being done on the basis of prior O-A visas, please do elaborate on those.

 

[AussieBob18]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I would guess they did not want to add another clause to the police order titled in case of retirement to confuse things anymore than they already are.

Could I ask a related question ubonjoe?  If I enter on a 60 day tourist Visa, what options if any are there to extend my permission to stay? 

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

If it was just for O-A applicant period, then why does Immigration even need to get involved at all....

 

MFA simply could say on their own, if you want to apply for a new O-A visa from Oct. 31 onward, you have to meet the insurance requirement. No insurance, no visa, period.

Because immigration will be enforcing the insurance requirement after the visa is issued when a person enters the country using the visa.

Very few people enter the country using the visa the first time and never leaves the country at least once before  the visa expires. If a 2nd entry is done the insurance would expire before that entry ended.

You really need to read all of the announcement. I read it this morning when I checked for new announcements on the immigration website. This is the file posted on the announcement I renamed when I downloaded it. Immigration order for OA insurance.pdf

 

[onera1961]

I wonder if @ubonjoe was lawyer before he retired here in Thailand. Othjerwise, how can he intrepret police orders, their intentions, and the nuances?

Edited October 9, 2019 by onera1961

[Issannative]

So every time ppl do a border bounce immigration will have to verify if the insurance is still valid too, or could you just cancel and refund.

[lamyai3]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

No, it would be irresponsible of any Embassy to issue the Non O-A Visa knowing entry would be denied without proof of Medical cover.

Agree, so it seems completely unclear how things will unfold after October when someone arrives in the first year period of their Non O-A. Until today the insurance has not been a requirement in any shape or form, so in the absence of any official notification of this change of policy people will be arriving with no clue that the rule even exists. 

 

Are immigration seriously suggesting that they will deny entry to someone who has never been officially notified of the rule change? We're talking about pensioners who will likely be wiped out after long haul flights visiting home - are they planning to turn them back for not having a document they've never been told about, and then lock them up in the detention cells before repatriating them on a full price ticket? Or are they offering some opportunity to purchase the insurance at point of entry? It's very shoddy of them to apply this retrospectively to perfectly valid visas, and if they will actually be refusing entry this would mark a new low level of conduct even by immigration's standards.

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

I wonder if @ubonjoe was lawyer before he retired here in Thailand. Othjerwise, how can he intrepret police orders, their intentions, and the nuances?

I do not interpret them. I just read them without being biased.

And because i have read so many of them since participating in this forum.

Some people read them and twist what it says to fit their opinion.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

12 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Because immigration will be enforcing the insurance requirement after the visa is issued when a person enters the country using the visa.

Very few people enter the country using the visa the first time and never leaves the country at least once before  the visa expires. If a 2nd entry is done the insurance would expire before that entry ended.

You really need to read all of the announcement. I read it this morning when I checked for new announcements on the immigration website. This the file posted on the announcement I renamed when I downloaded it. Immigration order for OA insurance.pdf

 

 

 

Thanks Joe... The last page of the document you linked -- the instructions to Immigration commanders -- is interesting in that it deals exclusively with how Immigration should handle incoming travelers holding O-As relative to the health insurance requirement.

 

But the whole document, at least by my reading, doesn't seem to give any context for why they've also included a section on the O-A health insurance requirement in the retirement extensions criteria....

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK