elite visa versus health insurance

[Tounge Thaied]

29 minutes ago, impulse said:

I'm still hung up on all the guys who think they're going to fly home for treatment when they have a stroke or a heart attack. Or the guys who can self fund a hospital stay, but then they won't have enough money left over for the rest of their lives in Thailand.

 

Comparing the cost of an Elite visa to the cost of insurance?

 

 

These are obviously people who are ignorant. That kind of planning will obviously catch up with them. What you are describing is the very issue that the Thai government is trying to mitigate. The real issue are the older folks who don't qualify to get the insurance by pre-existing conditions or age. If the insurance requirement gets pushed into the Non-Immigrant O category, people who don't qualify are are pretty much screwed. Their only option is the TE. This of course doesn't solve their issue of funding any healthcare costs. 

[ThomasThBKK]

Wouldn't go to malaysia, it's already dead.

 

Run by a nutter, tourism down hard, not recovering, def worse than thailand: http://asean.travel/2018/09/14/no-turn-around-for-malaysia-tourism/

My second home visa getting worse and worse each year too... also more expensive than elite at least short term, so not sure what the point is.

Edited January 9, 2020 by ThomasThBKK

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

I would love to get my PR, can you tell me how I get a work permit. I have a Thai Marriage VISA, just need a work permit for three years correct?

I know a guy who has PR and he said it's not as hard as people seem to make out. However he has kids in Thailand and that seemed to be an important part of the approval process.

 

I believe he needed to provide DNA proofs, which was easy to do I guess.

 

You have to wonder why they demanded the DNA proofs, he had been married for a long time and worked here for a long time so I would imagine that without that proof 'only' being married and working here for a very long time probably isn't enough....because if being married and working/paying tax for a very long time was enough then they wouldn't ask for it would they?

[gk10002000]

On 10/25/2019 at 4:54 AM, Max69xl said:

Yes, the financial part. Do the math, let's say 5 year Elite visa för 500k. Compare that to 5x 1900 baht for annual extensions. You have to do almost exactly same at the immigration office as if you have an O Visa with extensions, except the extension part, which in May took me less than 4 minutes to do. Elite visas are for people who don't meet the requirements for a long term visa/extension, or have loads of money to throw away. 

Much will depend on what if anything happens or changes with Long stay expat Thai insurance rules.

[lupin]

16 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

When you exited and re-entered Thailand just before the expiry of the 5 year Elite Visa validity date, you will be stamped in again for a permission to stay of 1 year.

Obviously you would need re-entry permits when during that last year (after expiry of your 5year Visa validity) you want to be able to re-enter Thailand during that last year's permission to stay period.

So I presume that the 'affix a new sticker' you mention, refers to this re-entry permit.  

Ór is this not correct?

This is a contentious issue among many talking about this. The realty is your permission to stay is tied not to your permission to stay date but to your membership expiration. So if your membership is set to expire and you leave/enter the country and get a 1 year permission to stay... it is immediately invalidated when your membership expires. There are those that have found themselves on overstay as a result. This is explicitly stated in terms and conditions and is sent out as a mail out when a members membership is up for re-newal. I'm not going to get into back and forth about it with those who think this is rubbish, you can easily contact Thailand Elite and ask them.

[lupin]

7 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

Ok. Thanks for that explanation. It's so ridiculous. You have to be sure your TM30 is filled out on every travel period, or complete a TM28 if the TM30 doesn't get done for whatever reason, then have to do the 90 day reporting, then do the annual renewal as you describe, and then finally go for the 5 year sticker. So in reality the TE VISA only removes the annual hassle of paperwork/bank statements for the IO as required for the Non O for retirement or Marriage. 

If in Bangkok, I think you'll find no-one has ever had to do a TM28... TM30 can be done online (unless landlord doesn't want to do it or you're in one of a few situations that makes it difficult). Thailand Elite will do your 90 day reporting for you with no need you to go to immigration Annual renewals or any other need to visit immigration can be done with a Thailand Elite Liaison which cuts very long wait times down to all of 5 mins at the immigration office, I dont remember ever having to wait more than 10 mins for any immigration visit when with a Thailand Elite staff member.

 

All of the issues you bring up though have nothing to do with the Elite membership so not sure why they are relevant. Most things I had to do at immigration are a lot easier now as a PE visa holder. Other things like getting bank accounts/drivers Lic are a lot easier.

[jacko45k]

46 minutes ago, lupin said:

you can easily contact Thailand Elite and ask them.

Would it not be better to contact Thai immigration who are the only people who can penalize you for any perceived overstay (despite having a Permit in your passport)?

It's like asking a salesman if I need a new car

Edited January 10, 2020 by jacko45k

[Tayaout]

8 hours ago, impulse said:

I'm still hung up on all the guys who think they're going to fly home for treatment when they have a stroke or a heart attack. Or the guys who can self fund a hospital stay, but then they won't have enough money left over for the rest of their lives in Thailand.

 

Comparing the cost of an Elite visa to the cost of insurance?

 

 

Some already have cheaper international insurance with much better coverage than the mandatory thai insurance. In that case it can make sense. 

[lupin]

13 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Would it not be better to contact Thai immigration who are the only people who can penalize you for any perceived overstay (despite having a Permit in your passport)?

It's like asking a salesman if I need a new car

Yes, people have done that and still found themselves on overstay. Like I said, I'm not going to get into it, this particular issue has been raging on and on between PE holders and non-PE holders constantly since July last year on facebook on other threads here.. its been done to death.

[ubonjoe]

48 minutes ago, lupin said:

Yes, people have done that and still found themselves on overstay.

Do you have any proof of that statement. I have never seen a proven case of the permit to stay from the last entry using a PE visa being canceled by immigration.

[lupin]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

Do you have any proof of that statement. I have never seen a proven case of the permit to stay from the last entry using a PE visa being canceled by immigration.

Only on the word of Thailand Elite Liaison Officer at Changwattana.

 

Would also add i was told (again by Thailand Elite Officer) that Thailand Elite send a list of expiring memberships to Immigration every month. Again, this is all from Thailand Elite and may or may not be applied/policed by immigration.

 

Those that dont believe this is possible, have to assume Thailand Elite is lieing... which is fine.

[lupin]

12 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Do you have any proof of that statement. I have never seen a proven case of the permit to stay from the last entry using a PE visa being canceled by immigration.

In addition to the conversation I had with liaison officer at changwatana... here is a copy of an email I got from Thailand elite when I was set to renew last year. (I also received a global mail out to all members whose membership was set to expire last year explaining the permission to stay is invalidated if membership expires - I posted that elsewhere on thaivisa )

 

Greetings from Thailand Elite Customer Contact Center.

 

We are sorry to have kept you waiting for our reply. Regarding to the below email, we have consulted with the Government Relations Department.

 

Thailand Elite visa will automatically expire no later than the expiry date of your membership. The Government Relations Department usually send the list of members whose membership have expired to the immigration office.

 

Now, for your case, having the entry stamp that is over your membership expiration. We are afraid that you will be considered as 'overstay' in the immigration record. There is very little chance that the immigration considers this as their mistake, but they will most likely consider this as your false.

Similar cases like this have happened before. The most recent one was last week. One of our members got the arrival stamp from Suvarnabhumi Airport, but he had an appointment to affix the new visa at Chaeng Wattana Immigration. On the appointment date, the immigration officer checked the record and found that this member had overstayed since his membership expired. Not only he had to pay for the overstay, but he also could not affix Thailand Elite Visa due to overstay record. So he had to leave the country and affix new Elite visa upon arrival.

 

We tried to negotiate with the immigration but they refused and the reason they gave us was that member should know well about his membership expiry date (which is the end of the Thailand Elite Visa).

 

Best regards,

Nisa C

Customer Contact Center

 

 

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, lupin said:

In addition to the conversation I had with liaison officer at changwatana... here is a copy of an email I got from Thailand elite when I was set to renew last year. (I also received a global mail out to all members whose membership was set to expire last year explaining the permission to stay is invalidated if membership expires - I posted that elsewhere on thaivisa )

That is not the proof I was asking for. Nobody has had a permit to stay canceled by immigration.

Most of what is written in that email has been proven to be false info and they apparently reversed that statement according to info posted in other topics.

[lupin]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not the proof I was asking for. Nobody has had a permit to stay canceled by immigration.

Most of what is written in that email has been proven to be false info and they apparently reversed that statement according to info posted in other topics.

As I said, it comes down to having to assume Thailand Elite is lieing.

 

Could you show me though, where/how that email was shown to be false or reversed? That is the exact email I received. Perhaps I'm missing something. Despite being in constant communication with Nisa, she has not corrected or said anything that contradicts what she claimed earlier

[ThomasThBKK]

49 minutes ago, lupin said:

As I said, it comes down to having to assume Thailand Elite is lieing.

 

Could you show me though, where/how that email was shown to be false or reversed? That is the exact email I received. Perhaps I'm missing something. Despite being in constant communication with Nisa, she has not corrected or said anything that contradicts what she claimed earlier

yes of course they are, they also told me i can't enter on land borders with my elite visa (would only get 30 day stamp) and i only found out 3 years laters that i am an idiot to have believed that.

 

The customer support of them is some random call center stuff i suppose and they really don't know much at all.

[lupin]

9 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

yes of course they are, they also told me i can't enter on land borders with my elite visa (would only get 30 day stamp) and i only found out 3 years laters that i am an idiot to have believed that.

 

The customer support of them is some random call center stuff i suppose and they really don't know much at all.

yep.. not going to get into it again. Been over this dozens of times in the last 10 months.

 

Bottom line is, PE holders or those interested in getting one, need to make a determination based on:

a. what Thailand elite say

b. what immigration say

c. what people in a forum say.

 

It is entirely up to them what weight is given to each of those sources when making their decision.

Edited January 10, 2020 by lupin
sepeeellling

[newatthis]

1 hour ago, lupin said:

Not only he had to pay for the overstay, but he also could not affix Thailand Elite Visa due to overstay record. So he had to leave the country and affix new Elite visa upon arrival.

So still got the Elite Visa anyway?

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, lupin said:

Only on the word of Thailand Elite Liaison Officer at Changwattana.

Would also add i was told (again by Thailand Elite Officer) that Thailand Elite send a list of expiring memberships to Immigration every month. Again, this is all from Thailand Elite and may or may not be applied/policed by immigration.

Those that dont believe this is possible, have to assume Thailand Elite is lieing... which is fine.

Just remarking that the incentive for Thailand Elite to 'bend the truth' about this is huge.  When Elite-holders believe they need to renew their membership (500.000 THB for 5 years) because otherwise they would be on overstay and face a possible ban, most won't take any (perceived) risks and simply renew at expiry time. 

Those not renewing, and using the 6th year permission to stay might get smart during that period and conclude that a Non Imm O - retirement Visa or a Non Imm O - marriage Visa is way cheaper to stay long-term in Thailand.  And if they don't like to mingle with the 'plebs' when having to apply for their annual extension of stay, they can use an agent for that.

Obviously if money is no issue at all, the status an Elite Visa provides will be very attractive for those that care about such things, and so they won't hesitate to renew at expiry time.

Note 1: I am not saying that TE is lieing, but it's suspicious that there are no cases of 6th year permission to stay use reported as overstay on the Forum. 

 

>> Would be interesting to get some responses from TVF members that have used or are presently making use of this 6th year permission to stay.

[Tounge Thaied]

For me the title of the OP misses the important point. That this it is not an issue of either/or, or avoiding covering your health needs. It's an issue of wisely choosing/covering both necessary requirements, a VISA and health coverage. Regarding the TE alone as a VISA, to me is a complete waste of money, unless your Uber rich or a busy executive. And I would go on to say it is even a complete waste of money even if you have the money to spend. When you factor in that TE still requires you to comply with TM30/28, 90 day reporting, personal presence for your annual renewal (albeit with no paperwork/bank statements but still requires 1900 baht payment annually) and... 5 year renewal on top of the annual renewal it starts to look like a very expensive annual Non- O or OA doesn't it. Just get the Non O or OA and have an agent do renewals for you if you don't want the paperwork hassles and dealing with immigration. There are really only three situations IMO that can make TE worth it, even necessary. 

 

1. You can't qualify for the health insurance. To me, I do like the TE option as my go to for planning purposes should I somehow not qualify for health insurance in the future. 

 

2. The Uber wealthy/business execs who don't want the hassles of immigration reporting (TE advisors purportedly facilitate this for you) and you want to enjoy a golf discount and your own VIP line and transport at the airport.

 

3. You're too young for the retirement VISA options.

Because, when you breakdown the actual benefits of TE, it is clearly not worth it from any normal practical financial point of view. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Tounge Thaied

[ukrules]

11 minutes ago, Tounge Thaied said:

3. You're too young for the retirement VISA options.

This is why the visa exists.

[freeman01]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

This is why the visa exists.

I wouldn't say so, primarily it is there to give the wealthy 1% of this world a way to enter the country with minimum hassle.

 

Does everyone considering this as an option for retirement got the part where they have to pay for 5, 10 or 20 years the whole cost upfront ? As opposed to the cost of insurance which is paid monthly or yearly.

For those living out of their retirement income it is not even an option, and i am guessing getting a loan at that age is hardly possible.

 

And all that money just to save a visit or two a year to the immigration. Damn, boomers are really something ...

 

For those with families, buy gold or something instead, they will thank you when you are gone.

[lupin]

10 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

For me the title of the OP misses the important point. That this it is not an issue of either/or, or avoiding covering your health needs. It's an issue of wisely choosing/covering both necessary requirements, a VISA and health coverage. Regarding the TE alone as a VISA, to me is a complete waste of money, unless your Uber rich or a busy executive. And I would go on to say it is even a complete waste of money even if you have the money to spend. When you factor in that TE still requires you to comply with TM30/28, 90 day reporting, personal presence for your annual renewal (albeit with no paperwork/bank statements but still requires 1900 baht payment annually) and... 5 year renewal on top of the annual renewal it starts to look like a very expensive annual Non- O or OA doesn't it. Just get the Non O or OA and have an agent do renewals for you if you don't want the paperwork hassles and dealing with immigration. There are really only three situations IMO that can make TE worth it, even necessary. 

 

1. You can't qualify for the health insurance. To me, I do like the TE option as my go to for planning purposes should I somehow not qualify for health insurance in the future. 

 

2. The Uber wealthy/business execs who don't want the hassles of immigration reporting (TE advisors purportedly facilitate this for you) and you want to enjoy a golf discount and your own VIP line and transport at the airport.

 

3. You're too young for the retirement VISA options.

Because, when you breakdown the actual benefits of TE, it is clearly not worth it from any normal practical financial point of view. 

4. People who do not actually live in Thailand permanently but travel to Thailand 10 - 20 times every year for business or any other reason who dont want to have to deal with potential issues entering the country each time on 30 day stamps and who also want to have the freedom of a Bank account/thai drivers lic (which also cant be done on 30 day stamps)

 

As far as I am aware, visitors such as this (like the frequent business traveler) was who this program was originally targeted at.

Edited January 11, 2020 by lupin
speeeling

[impulse]

On 1/9/2020 at 6:33 PM, Tayaout said:

Some already have cheaper international insurance with much better coverage than the mandatory thai insurance. In that case it can make sense. 

 

That's true, and a lot of retired expats are sitting on nesteggs worth many millions of dollars.  In either case, paying for the mandatory Thai health insurance policy makes no sense, except when it is mandatory.

 

I was going back to the premise of the OP, that compared the cost of insurance to the cost of the Elite visa.  From personal experience, I know that's a dangerous calculation for anyone without the means to cough up a lot of money and still have enough for the next time they need care and not derail the rest of their Thai retirement. 

 

Also, by personal experience, I know that planning to fly home when you need care is not a great plan.  I walked into the hospital on a Friday for routine testing, and had a 4x bypass on Monday.  They would have done it on Saturday or Sunday, but it took until Monday for the Euro based insurance company to approve the charges.  

 

[BritManToo]

On 10/10/2019 at 7:24 PM, Why Me said:

It's all relative. Some people take a cab to where they can get by bus. Some spend 500b on meals when they can fill up street food at a fifth of the cost.

 

There's lots of people for whom 100,000b/year to kiss IO hassles goodbye is peanuts for a good cause.

Not many foreigners with money to throw away visiting Thailand IMHO.

(except all those Indians with 10,000bht/day to spend)

[BritManToo]

On 10/10/2019 at 7:12 PM, cerox said:

Assuming that "one day" health insurance will be required for all non-immigrant visas and extensions, who says it will not be necessary for Elite too?

 

I am not sure why some think the cost is almost the same. Retirement visa is only 1900 THB yearly if I understand it correctly. The bank "frozen money" is your money, you leave it is your money. Elite is money spent and gone forever.

Why would anyone assume compulsory Thai health insurance is anything except a failing extortion experiment?

Why does your assumption include 'non-o' 90 days VISAs and not 'tourist' 60 day VISAs?

 

I predict all the health insurance requirements will quietly go away as foreign visitor numbers to Thailand continue to drop.

Arrived on a flight from Vietnam to Chiang Mai yesterday afternoon at 2pm, every immigration booth manned, no other customers (from other flights) arrived.

This was on a Friday afternoon in peak season which should presumably be the busiest tourist period.

(I guess it might have been a freak event)

 

In comparison, Saigon airport 2hrs earlier was jam packed.

Edited January 11, 2020 by BritManToo

[ThomasThBKK]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

That's true, and a lot of retired expats are sitting on nesteggs worth many millions of dollars.  In either case, paying for the mandatory Thai health insurance policy makes no sense, except when it is mandatory.

 

I was going back to the premise of the OP, that compared the cost of insurance to the cost of the Elite visa.  From personal experience, I know that's a dangerous calculation for anyone without the means to cough up a lot of money and still have enough for the next time they need care and not derail the rest of their Thai retirement. 

 

Also, by personal experience, I know that planning to fly home when you need care is not a great plan.  I walked into the hospital on a Friday for routine testing, and had a 4x bypass on Monday.  They would have done it on Saturday or Sunday, but it took until Monday for the Euro based insurance company to approve the charges.  

 

 

There's also the other case, where expats, me included have health insurance - just not the useless thai one.

 

I used my ACS expat lifetime insurance here before, worked as expected. The limit is like 1 mio/year which should be way more sufficient than all the thai rubbish...Many have one of the dozens of expat health insurances or insurance providers in their home country and the real scandal is that those aren't accepted here. So it's not that we are all without HI here, we just don't want to waste money on this unneeded thai <deleted> insurance if we already have something better in the real world...

 

I am not playing with fire, i am sufficiently insured, it's just that my insurance doesn't fit into their fantasy world they just made up for no reason except scamming me out of more money.

[PoorSucker]

On 10/10/2019 at 2:20 PM, Max69xl said:

I wouldn't call it "smart" to pay 100000 baht/year for a Visa. 

It's actually a 128.400 baht/year. 

There's a 20.000 baht/year membership fee and then add VAT

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, PoorSucker said:

It's actually a 128.400 baht/year. 

There's a 20.000 baht/year membership fee and then add VAT

There is no annual membership fee for most Thai Elite visas now.

See here for the 5 year one. https://www.thailandelite.com/at-your-service/card/elite-easy-access-membership?locate=en&popup=false

I think this 20 year one is the only one that has it. https://www.thailandelite.com/at-your-service/card/elite-ultimate-privilege-membership?locate=en&popup=false

[Why Me]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Not many foreigners with money to throw away visiting Thailand IMHO.

(except all those Indians with 10,000bht/day to spend)

I agree it doesn't make sense for once/twice a year tourists unless they are silly rich and like to be pampered in and out of the country. However, as a way to stay hassle free long-term it's good.

 

Firstly, no IO issues as I believe Elite takes care of things if you are in Bkk, just drop off your passport. No mandatory health insurance worries as it's a glorified tourist visa. Ok, if they require some kind of insurance fee of all tourists then that would apply, but no way could that be a big deal. (Not that I am advocating staying here without insurance but that stupid OP requirement screws up the situation. Otherwise, a good cover is affordable and a must).

 

And it's actually 50k/year not 100k with the 20 year Elite. That's 137b/day, about the same as a Starbucks habit. Downside: money's gone pfft.

 

 

 

[galt67]

8 hours ago, Why Me said:

I agree it doesn't make sense for once/twice a year tourists unless they are silly rich and like to be pampered in and out of the country. However, as a way to stay hassle free long-term it's good.

 

Firstly, no IO issues as I believe Elite takes care of things if you are in Bkk, just drop off your passport. No mandatory health insurance worries as it's a glorified tourist visa. Ok, if they require some kind of insurance fee of all tourists then that would apply, but no way could that be a big deal. (Not that I am advocating staying here without insurance but that stupid OP requirement screws up the situation. Otherwise, a good cover is affordable and a must).

 

And it's actually 50k/year not 100k with the 20 year Elite. That's 137b/day, about the same as a Starbucks habit. Downside: money's gone pfft.

 

 

 

+1

This is the 'financial calculation' (NOT incuding non-financial ones ) that myself and two others I know went the 20 year/1mB route.