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OA insurance - the issues


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16 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Wouldn't surprise me if the Agents got some tricks for this as well.

Well mostly we don't yet expect it to apply to Extensions .... yet.

If, at a later date it does, and an IO can sign off on the requirement, an agent will be able to procure it. 

(Although a person on such an Extension, then not being able to cover a hospital bill, would chuck the muck at a fan.)

Edited by jacko45k
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1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

Well mostly we don't yet expect it to apply to Extensions .... yet.

If, at a later date it does, and an IO can sign off on the requirement, an agent will be able to procure it. 

(Although a person on such an Extension, then not being able to cover a hospital bill, would chuck the muck at a fan.)

Who is the we you speak about, I fully expect this to apply to all O-A extensions in the North from 1 November onwards.

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Just now, saengd said:

Who is the we you speak about, I fully expect this to apply to all O-A extensions in the North from 1 November onwards.

Me and the mouse in my pocket.... oh all seeing I. You have selected a small subset of Extensions, and do you speak for every single I.O. in the North?

It will all be clear and defined after Oct 31st, just like Brexit HAHA!

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On 10/15/2019 at 6:07 PM, Sheryl said:

No process for doing so at present. I doubt it even occurred to the people who developed the police order.

Now, someone could certainly try presenting proof of SS cover (a letter from SS office) instead of the mandated insurance certificate. Depending on the IO, this might or might not work. You would likely need to discuss with the senior officer (who have some discretionary powers) and it can be hard in many places to get past the gate keepers/ front office staff.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

My wife called Lopburi Immigration 2-days ago and spoke to the upstairs lieutenant we've known for 5+ years.  The officer said 1.) Myself being a Non-O and merely extending it yearly, there is no insurance requirement for my current Non-O.  2.) She implied in the future, my payments into the Private SS fund would likely cover any insurance requirement.  

 

In some odd way, I was "lucky" to almost die after that superbike accident broke my femur, tibia, broke both shoulders and dislocated one that destroyed the soft tissue in the right shoulder over time, endured 1-month of a coma, 4-months of renal failure or insufficiency, requiring dialysis for 4-months, and when the top ortho surgeon could not repair my tibia break/fracture in 14+ places, he referred me to his professor (supposedly the top orthopedic trauma surgeon in Thailand, who has also done extra work at Mass General Hospital & George-Washington Uni Hospital), that specialist then referred me to the pain clinic for morphine and other expensive treatments, the Psychiatric Dept. for PTSD and anxiety/sleeping problems, MRI's, CT scans, etc., all at NO COST to me.  Only recently, one of my meds has fallen out of the SS Approved Pharmaceutical list. 

 

I roughly calculated what 1-month in the American ICU system, 15+ surgeries, experimental therapies on my right shoulder, ambulance costs from the accident site where my heart stopped, etc., and I came up with figures close to $550,000 USD.  My cost in Thailand for saving my life: 12,000 baht for a surgical steel plate on my tibia that was not covered by SS Insurance.  It was actually about 68,000 baht for both surgical steel implants, but I had BBL Bank accident insurance for 50k that costs me 300 baht/month and it covered all but 12,000 baht for implants in my body. 

 

I might dislike many things about living in Thailand, but that kind of medical treatment that is 95% covered every 3 months would have bankrupted me in the U.S.

 

PRG 

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On 10/15/2019 at 4:04 PM, Jingthing said:

So it's a conspiracy thing then, huh? I'm not saying he's right but I'm not as cynical as you are about his videos. I think he tries to sincerely givegoodinformation just as some of our experts here do. I can understand people hating on him because they don't LIKE his interpretations. I don't LIKE his interpretations. But even without his videos, I would find it unethical to broadcast total CERTAINTY about what these already done changes actually will mean until enough time passes so that we can SEE in real life what has changed.

Well, I don't come here often, only when I find something of interest in Thai Visa Headline articles or an issue that may or may not affect me.

 

Just because he's a lawyer and people pay him money for his advice,does not make him correct.  We all have our credentials.  Me?  I'm a Yale Doctor of Law who ran a rather famous law firm in Bkk from 2004-2009 and I did Thai and US Immigration.  People paid me and I worked with DSI, Thai Immigration, etc.... blah, blah.  I'm saying my read of the regulations and Order, my and my wife's discussions with Lopburi Immigration, ALL point to a Non-O Extension does NOT require any medical insurance, and if it does in the future, I am very likely to be covered under my Thai Private SS Fund Coverage.  

Edited by PunkRockerGuy
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On 10/15/2019 at 3:24 PM, TallGuyJohninBKKsaid:

 

I believe the explanation Tanoshihas--whichis different than Joe's at this point --goes like this.

 

--If you're already here on already-issued retirement extensions of stay based on some past O-A, whether it be two or three or 10 years back, your future retirement extensions would not require insurance as things stand now.

 

--But, if you....

a. receive a new O-A issued from Oct. 31 onward or

b. make an entry on an O-A permission to stay on any date from Oct. 31 onward, including on a previously issued O-A, then you would be requiredto have insurance then... And on all future retirement extensions stemming from that O-A.

 

That, I believe,is the interpretation he has...  How that will work out in real life...remains to be seen.

 

 

From my perspective, the O-A Visa holds no appeal.  When I took a year off in 2009 to work for the US government back in the States, I let my Non-B and Work Permit, which by virtueof owning myown law firm and previously working in the old Thaksin admin, had always done them myself. So, when I decided to comeback to Thailand in 2010, I asked my then gf to sign and stamp a Non-B Invitation Letter to invite me back to Thailand, which I did at the Thai Embassy in Washington, DC.  After a couple ofyears running my wife's companies, I nearly died in a superbike accident, and one day during my 3-year rehab recovery, the Lopburi Immigration Officer pulled my now wife aside and asked her why did I pay taxes on my mandatory reporting salary of 65K baht when I could just retire and finish rehab more easily and pay no tax on a Non-O. 

 

Why are people applying for Non O-A's in the first place.  I don't get it.

 

PRG 

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18 minutes ago, PunkRockerGuy said:

Well, I don't come here often, only when I find something of interest in Thai Visa Headline articles or an issue that may or may not affect me.

 

Just because he's a lawyer and people pay him money for hisadvice,does not make him correct.  We all have our credentials.  Me?  I'm a Yale Doctor of Law who ran a rather famous law firm in Bkk from 2004-2009and I did Thai and US Immigration.  People paid me and I worked with DSI, Thai Immigration, etc.... blah, blah.  I'm saying my read of the regulations and Order, my and my wife's discussions with Lopburi Immigration, ALL point to a Non-O Extension does NOT require any medical insurance, and if it does in the future, I am very likely to be coveredunder my Thai Private SS Fund Coverage.  

I agree that it's looking at this point that extensions based on O visas will not effected (at least for now) but that extensions based on OA visas may be at least at some offices and perhaps much more widely. I don't think you need to be any kind of lawyer to have noticed that at this point in time. But still, people need to keep an eye on this going forward. 

 

BTW, and correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that Ubonjoe here thinks the police order means that NO extensions should have the insurance requirement. Yet some major offices are saying that extensions with an OA base are compelled to have the insurance. So if that's true, in that sense, the Integrity Legal lawyer would be at least HALF right. His read is that it will apply to both O and OA based extensions. So if it "only" applies to OA based extensions he would then have been on to something if not everything. 

Edited by Jingthing
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37 minutes ago, PunkRockerGuysaid:

My wife called Lopburi Immigration 2-days ago and spoke to the upstairs lieutenant we've known for 5+ years.  The officer said 1.) Myself being a Non-O and merely extending it yearly, there is no insurance requirement for my current Non-O.  2.) She implied in the future, my payments into the Private SS fund would likely cover any insurance requirement.  

 

In some odd way, I was "lucky" to almost die after that superbike accident broke my femur, tibia, broke both shoulders and dislocated one that destroyed the soft tissue in the right shoulder over time, endured 1-month of a coma, 4-months of renal failure or insufficiency, requiring dialysis for 4-months, and when the top ortho surgeon could not repair my tibia break/fracture in 14+ places, he referred me to his professor (supposedly the top orthopedic trauma surgeon in Thailand, who has also done extra work at Mass General Hospital & George-Washington Uni Hospital), that specialist then referred me to the pain clinic for morphine and other expensive treatments, the Psychiatric Dept. for PTSD and anxiety/sleeping problems, MRI's, CT scans, etc., all at NO COST to me.  Only recently, one of my meds has fallen out of the SS Approved Pharmaceutical list. 

 

I roughly calculated what 1-month in the American ICU system, 15+ surgeries, experimental therapies on my right shoulder, ambulance costs from the accident site where my heart stopped, etc., and I came up with figures close to $550,000 USD.  My cost in Thailand for saving my life: 12,000 baht for a surgical steel plate on my tibia that was not covered by SS Insurance.  It was actually about 68,000 baht for both surgical steel implants, but I had BBL Bank accident insurance for 50k that costs me 300 baht/month and it covered all but 12,000 baht for implants in my body. 

 

I might dislike many things about living in Thailand, but that kind of medical treatment that is 95% covered every 3 months would have bankrupted me in the U.S.

 

PRG 

Sorry, an important missing part of the story was the top ortho surgeon at Kasemradcould not repair my tibia properly, so he referred me to his professor (top ortho doctor in Thailand) at Ramathibodi, and after that, every doctor will refer me to another specialist dept., all covered under the Private SS Fund I pay 650 baht/month for.  Best health insurance plan I have ever had in my life.  Better than my Health Insurance at Sikorski Helicopter (United Technologies) Senior Engineer insurance plan. 

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13 minutes ago, Jingthingsaid:

I agree that it's looking at this point that extensions based on O visas will noteffected(at least for now) but that extensions based on OA visas may be at least at some offices and perhaps much more widely. I don't think you need to be any kind of lawyer to have noticed that at this point in time. But still,people need to keep an eye onthisgoing forward. 

 

BTW, and correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that Ubonjoehere thinks the police order means that NO extensions should have the insurance requirement. Yet some major offices are sayingthat extensions with an OA base are compelledto have the insurance. So if that's true, in that sense,the Integrity Legal lawyer would be at least HALF right. His read is that it will apply to both O and OA based extensions. So if it "only"applies to OA based extensions he would then have been on to something if not everything. 

You're right.  No need for a lawyer for IMO, simple Immigrationissues.  Even when I was just a 24-year oldengineer, I did all the legal work for my Japanese ex-wife's Green Card in the U.S.  It's not rocket science. 

 

I don't know what UbonJoesaid, nor do I bother to listen to lawyers in Bkk.  Most lawyers in Bkk overcharge, don't provide deliverables, etc. That's one reason I closed my law firm in 2009.  Just tired of the infighting between Bkk law firms.  I still do legal work freelance, especially for my wife's companies and Japanese business partners, but I really don't follow any advice of Bkk lawyers.  I can determine most legal matters that require a legal mind with my own from my own Law Degreeand business experience.  

 

So, I am not qualified to affirm or not affirm what other lawyers are saying. 

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Still can't get my head around this and in reality should wait and see how it plays out. But I still believe the insurance requirement is only meant to apply to post Oct 31st Non-Imm-O-A applications, and those entering Thailand on O-A issued after Oct 31st.

That invites the question, why has it now been introduced into the Police Orders pertaining to Retirement Extensions, it should not be there if my prior statement is valid. 

Perhaps (and  spit balling here), it needs to be there for someone arriving with an O-A and unable to show insurance or satisfy the IO. I would expect him to be admitted on Visa Exempt for 30 days. Do we now need to accommodate his ability to then obtain insurance in Thailand, and subsequently transfer to a one year permission to stay without leaving and returning? 

Edited by jacko45k
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A quick review of the website for both Thai Embassy in Washington and the Consulate in New York, show no changes in the required documentation for a Non Immigrant O-A, Long Stay Visa.  And even on their respective "Whats New" pages there is no mention of this insurance requirement

 

So until it shows up in the instructions for obtaining an O-A I am not going to worry about it, especially since history has shown that each entity in the US makes up their own rules as they go along
 

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9 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

A quick review of the website for both Thai Embassy in Washington and the Consulate in New York,

Well it is up and listed on the London Embassy website. Get back to us on Nov 1st, as until then it is not actually required. 

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12 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Well it is up and listed on the London Embassy website. Get back to us on Nov 1st, as until then it is not actually required. 

Yes it is. London aren't processing O-A applications without proof of medical Insurance.

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2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Yes it is. London aren't processing O-A applications without proof of medical Insurance.

Actually, they are. I wrote to them and asked when the new regulations came into effect. Below is the reply I received. I have just completed, though not yet submitted, an online application to be sent to London, and I wasn't required to provide insurance details.

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

from 31 October hopefully 

Kind Regards,

Visa Officer

Edited by Exploring Thailand
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1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

I just checked on the e visa site and it still is not shown (https://thaievisa.go.th/Home/LongStay)  but it might show up if applying but I doubt it since it does not go into effect until the 31st.

It's on the London Embassy website.

http://www.thaiembassy.org/london/en/services/7742/84508-Non-Immigrant-visas.html

 

Non-Immigrant Type O- A (Long Stay) 1 Year/Multiple entries 

 

  • Printout of visa application form submitted online, with bar code

  • Passport or travel document with validity not less than 6 months and at least 2 blank pages

  • A medical certificate issued in the UK or Ireland or Thailand, showing no prohibitive diseases as indicated in the Ministerial Regulation No.14 (B.E. 2535) which include Leprosy, Tuberculosis, Elephantiasis, drug addiction, third stage of Syphilis, and the certificate shall be valid for not more than three months. A suggested template of medical certificate can be downloaded here for your doctor.
  • Certificate of criminal record clearance from the UK (ACRO is preferred) or Ireland
  • Copy of evidence stating that applicants have insurance as stipulated by the Office of Insurance Commission and health insurance of Thailand which has insurance coverage for outpatient not less than 40,000 Baht and for inpatient not less than 400,000 Baht. Please check http://longstay.tgia.org> for more information regarding the insurance requirement.
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8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

As I wrote above, I wrote to the London Thai Embassy last week asking them when it comes into effect. They said 31st October. I have also completed an online application via the longstay website and was not asked for insurance details. Despite what it says on the London website, they are not requiring insurance before the 31st. 

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6 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

As I wrote above, I wrote to the London Thai Embassy last week asking them when it comes into effect. They said 31st October. I have also completed an online application via the longstay website and was not asked for insurance details. Despite what it says on the London website, they are not requiring insurance before the 31st. 

What date of arrival did you stipulate?

Have they approved your application and issued the Visa yet?

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3 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Arrival on the 30th. They haven't approved it, nor issued the visa yet.

Ah! Then Insurance nor required.

If you'd have stipulated from 31st October onwards, you'd have received an e-mail requesting proof of Medical Insurance …….that's exactly what happened to a friend.

 

You are perfectly aware that you'll be granted permission to stay until 29th Oct 2020 on entry.

However if you leave before or up to that date, you will be required to provide proof of medical Insurance to gain entry.

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3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Yes it is. London aren't processing O-A applications without proof of medical Insurance.

 

4 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Ah! Then Insurance nor required.

If you'd have stipulated from 31st October onwards, you'd have received an e-mail requesting proof of Medical Insurance …….that's exactly what happened to a friend.

That's right. You don't need it before the 31st. I replied to you because you said that London are not processing O-A without proof of medical insurance, when actually, they are.

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6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You are perfectly aware that you'll be granted permission to stay until 29th Oct 2020 on entry.

However if you leave before or up to that date, you will be required to provide proof of medical Insurance to gain entry.

I'm not aware of that. As far as I know, that has not been confirmed. In fact, I believe I should theoretically be able to exit and re-enter without insurance, because the OA-visa will be dated prior to 31st Oct. The reports I've seen of people being told otherwise were from people who had applied for an extension of stay after the O-A had expired. Though, I stand to be corrected on any of that, because it all seems to be very much up in the air at the moment.

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1 minute ago, Exploring Thailand said:

 

That's right. You don't need it before the 31st. I replied to you because you said that London are not processing O-A without proof of medical insurance, when actually, they are.

Not if your intending to enter from 31st October onwards.

They've taken a responsible approach to the situation, and advising on the requirement, unlike other Embassies who haven't as yet updated their sites with the relevant information.

With 8 working days left to apply, obtain and enter Thailand, that's cutting it fine.

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2 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

I'm not aware of that. As far as I know, that has not been confirmed. In fact, I believe I should theoretically be able to exit and re-enter without insurance, because the OA-visa will be dated prior to 31st Oct. The reports I've seen of people being told otherwise were from people who had applied for an extension of stay after the O-A had expired. Though, I stand to be corrected on any of that, because it all seems to be very much up in the air at the moment.

Be aware.

Regardless of what prior date the Visa was issued, if you enter on an O-A Visa on or after 31st October, then proof of medical Insurance will be required.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Not if your intending to enter from 31st October onwards.

They've taken a responsible approach to the situation, and advising on the requirement, unlike other Embassies who haven't as yet updated their sites with the relevant information.

With 8 working days left to apply, obtain and enter Thailand, that's cutting it fine.

It's good that they're letting visitors to the site know about the requirement for insurance. It's not good that there is no indication on the site that the requirement is not effective until the 31st. 

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1 minute ago, Exploring Thailand said:

It's good that they're letting visitors to the site know about the requirement for insurance. It's not good that there is no indication on the site that the requirement is not effective until the 31st. 

It's not effective unless your entering on or after 31st October.

It's not applicable if you enter before 31st October.

I note your comment that they don't actually stipulate the effective date, but they appear to be checking the intended date of arrival from the application form and advising accordingly.

 

After 31st Oct, I'm expecting a few topics relating to refused entry on an O-A Visa, because no proof of medical Insurance. Some will have obtained the Visa prior to TI's notification, or before Embassy websites were/will be changed and be completely oblivious to the new requirement ….. unless they read TVF.

 

In the case of my friend, he intended entering in November.

After receiving the Embassy correspondence, they issued him the SE Non O Visa and refunded the difference of cost between the two different Visa types.

Usually they wouldn't normally offer a refund, but under the circumstances they did on this occasion.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

After 31st Oct, I'm expecting a few topics relating to refused entry on an O-A Visa, because no proof of medical Insurance.

I think all we can do is wait and see. Every OA issued after the new rules come into effect will have an annotation giving details of the insurance. Those that were issued before the new rules came into effect won't have have the annotation because insurance was not required. The only grey area is what happens when somebody with no annotation leaves and re-enters. I think the should be allowed back in. All the IO has to do is check the date of issue of the OA. Whether it works like that in practice remains to be seen.

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In fact, thinking about it, all the IO needs to check is

 

  1. Is there annotation
  2. If if there is an annotation, has it expired yet (i.e. has the insurance expired)?

 

Any OA with no annotation was issued before the new requirements so there is nothing to check, other than that the visa itself has not expired.

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3 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

I think all we can do is wait and see. Every OA issued after the new rules come into effect will have an annotation giving details of the insurance. Those that were issued before the new rules came into effect won't have have the annotation because insurance was not required. The only grey area is what happens when somebody with no annotation leaves and re-enters. I think the should be allowed back in. All the IO has to do is check the date of issue of the OA. Whether it works like that in practice remains to be seen.

If I can use your O-A Visa as an example.

You'll enter on 30th October before the Insurance requirement is effective, but be granted permission to stay for 1 year until 29th October 2020.

 

If you leave prior to your permitted length of granted stay, then you permission to stay immediately ceases on the day you exit Thailand.

On re-entry (via the condition of it being an ME type Visa) you will be granted another 1 year permission of stay. So you'll initially be granted permission of stay until 29/10/20, but if you left 4/4/20 and re-entered 10/4/20, you'd be granted permission of stay until 9/4/21.

Each entry of the valid Visa allows a 1 year entry.

 

However because you'd be re-entering on 10/4/20, which is later than 31/10/19, then the medical Insurance will be required to cover your newly granted permission of stay of 1 year from a valid O-A Visa, or if you originally had valid Insurance covering 30/10/19 until 29/10/20, then on re-entry on 10/4/20 you'd only be granted permission of stay up to the validity date of any valid Insurance cover, that being 29/10/20.

 

Just an example.

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24 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

In fact, thinking about it, all the IO needs to check is

 

  1. Is there annotation
  2. If if there is an annotation, has it expired yet (i.e. has the insurance expired)?

 

Any OA with no annotation was issued before the new requirements so there is nothing to check, other than that the visa itself has not expired.

Your entirely missing the point that as from 31/10/19 ANY/ALL entries from a valid O-A Visa will require medical cover. The annotation on a Visa only covers the very first entry, thereafter you will have to provide a certificate issued by the relevant Insurance company to confirm dates of cover.

Permission of stay will only be granted to the expiry date of any valid Insurance certificate.

Edited by Tanoshi
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