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1 hour ago, The Cobra said:

Except that the senior officer who signs the visa stamp has the legal authority and discretionary power to issue a visa without ANY financial proof if he deems appropriate.

That is where all this talk falls apart. It is NOT therefore illegal.

It seems you know what you are talking about and I won't argue with that.

But I am pretty sure if anybody submits fake or incorrect document an officer makes decisions based on those documents, then that can be a problem.

If the officer knows that the applicant has i.e. "only" 500k in the bank and the officer decides that is good enough that is up to the officer. But if the officer was misled to think the applicant has 800k but this is not the truth now that's a different story.

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I have heard this before and I dont agree at all.   If the services were illegal they would not be allowed to operate and certainly not allowed to advertise the service.   The stam

This was covered off in another thread a short while ago and I remember posting a few paragraphs from an edict which was issued by immigration and it stated that, "the senior officer in the immigratio

That is entirely different scenario and deals with "fraudulent" stamps NOT issued by the correct authority.

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28 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Please elaborate. That's what I get on a savings account. Yes, one can get higher rates on a term deposit, but then Immigration looks askance at that because it is not immediately available.

It has been confirmed by multiple posters that CM immigration (I believe that is also your local office) accepts term deposits. I get over 2% on my term deposit with CIMB. 

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49 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

you can read about this story if you search "dutch man 100 years thai jail".

it was 100's of millions of baht, not dollars.

he propably brought all this money to thailand to save it from confiscation

by EU atax authorities (he had some tax problems in his home country), but

thai law say that tax evasion is not a reason for money laundry.

the bottom line of this story is that the verdict this dutch man got

was not according to the thai law. later his 100 years sentence was reduced to 70

years, and later to 20 years. why?

because that is how the "senior officers" felt like. that is the problem

with flexible rule of law like thailand's. it might feel nice

to get shortcuts like those semi legal visa agents, but it can

get nasty when the unsystematic system turns it's table on you.

He got done for money laundering in Thailand. The case was covered extensively on this forum a couple /three years ago.

In my honest opinion if you cannot afford to meet the financial requirements according to the police order, you really need to review your finances and your personal capability to live overseas.

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1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Until the senior officer in charge gets fired, as happened at CM. Then all bets are off.

I can understand where the OP is coming from. I find the 800K baht earning 0.5% interest irritating too. However, he has to decide if the risk is worth it. I've already made the decision that it's not.

Dude, the 'senior officer' has been fired 3x in the last 10 years, and the new guy always does the same deal.

I don't think they're being fired for being corrupt, I think they're fired for not passing enough money up the line.

 

Cancelling customers extensions would just reduce/derail the gravy train for the bigger bosses, that's never going to happen.

Edited by BritManToo
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7 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Perhaps there is something that we are all missing here.........

 

In the first instance if the senior I/O has dispensation to grant a retirement extension to somebody and that person has no proof of income, then that is covered and seems to be okay by immigration. Also, if that is the case, no documentation with regards to funds in the bank are needed, so nothing needs to be "illegally copied or produced", so no illegal "documentation/dealings" are necessary from a farang, for example.

 

So nobody is submitting false documentation to the immigration department, because it is not needed.

 

Another angle we could take is that this very edict/loophole in the immigration set of rules and regulations has been put there purposely, and it is there to provide an avenue for individual immigration offices to be able to not only operate as they "see fit", but to operate in a way which may "benefit" their employees. I'm sure you get my drift.

 

IMO, posters are trying to fit their way of thinking and what may or may not be "acceptable" in their home countries into what goes on here, and we all know that the differences are many, varied and mostly incompatible. 

Here, the issue is that different IO's apply different rules. And as farangs, those different rules are basically impenetrable.

I would dispute false documentation has never been submitted, as I know for a fact it has. The person in question is deceased, but there is no way he ever met income or asset stipulations.

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2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Dude, the 'senior officer' has been fired 3x in the last 10 years, and the new guy always does the same deal.

I don't think they're being fired for being corrupt, I think they're fired for not passing enough money up the line.

You may be right. I'll probably be posting another thread next week.

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17 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

how about buying foreign investment / securities via thai banks?

i own shares in SHELL company, which pays 6.5% annual dividend.

i saw that SCB offer offshore investment account, with quite

god fees, and access to stock markets in many countries.

does anyone know if those foreign trading accounts are allowed also for

foreigners on retirement extention? and if other thai banks offer them?

http://www.scbs.com/en/product/product-offshore/

I bought some RDSA last week, but no, a brokerage accou t is not guaranteed under the Thai deposit insurance scheme.  I would be careful with the credit unions and coops, as well.  I have a Kim eng account, and as a foreigner, it is way down the list of places to trade. 

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20 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

how about buying foreign investment / securities via thai banks?

i own shares in SHELL company, which pays 6.5% annual dividend.

i saw that SCB offer offshore investment account, with quite

god fees, and access to stock markets in many countries.

does anyone know if those foreign trading accounts are allowed also for

foreigners on retirement extention? and if other thai banks offer them?

http://www.scbs.com/en/product/product-offshore/

Sorry, doesn't work. Has to be 800K baht in a Thai bank account.

Not that I mind, because my 800K came in when the AUD exchange rate was 29 baht.

 

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1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

This is not a western country.

False thinking and will never happen.

Some of you just do not get it.

It is accepted and encouraged by Immigration.

Millions of baht spread throughout the entire system.

The agents will never never never go away and in fact are becoming more a part of the system as things change.

Well in the past hardly anyone needed them but nowadays visas been made such a complex matter especially for aged expats it is impossible to do all by themselves TM30’s , bank transfers, insurance proof, copies this and that, rent agreements bluebooks, yellow books, purple-books, receipts this and that ,filling it on the correct day and time.getting fines etc.

Yes that isn’t a retirement nolonger sounds more like a fulltime job to me !

 

 

Edited by Destiny1990
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6 minutes ago, moontang said:

as a foreigner, it is way down the list of places to trade. 

what mean? as a foreigner  / local, all i should care about are

the taxes and comisions i have to pay.

and of course, if i trade the right way, than i don't have to care about anything

anymore...

it is very unlikely that thailand will see some crazy north korean style military

government that will steal all foreigners accounts (we saw it recently in EU country

like cyprus, where the EU taxed all bank deposits as they liked...)

so the only question, for a foreign trader, is...what are the visas neccasary to open

a trading account in thailand?

http://www.scbs.com/en/product/product-offshore/

 

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I'll never forget Bxxx.

 

He’d applied for a teaching position at a school somewhere in the lower northeast after teaching in Bangkok for a couple of years.

 

I’d posted an advertisement for the school and was in touch with some applicants who wanted to have the teaching position.

 

Bxxx, an English bloke had bought a fake visa and work permit from an agent in Bangkok promising all, but many people had no idea that this agent could only provide a fake one.

 

When he started at our school and told me his story, I wanted to inform the director to better keep looking for somebody else, with less criminal behavior.

 

 But his whiny excuses that he'd have three kids with a Thai lady finally changed my decision and I tried to help him for the sake of his Thai family.

 

Even offering him to get all the needed documents to apply for a real Non-B in Laos was rejected when Bxxx thought that he'd have a valid visa and work permit.

 

I should have stopped supporting/helping him at this point and tell the director/headteacher the truth about this miserable liar and suggest to take somebody who had a real degree and experience.

 

So, he started to work at our school, but nobody else knew what was really wrong with him. It was the time when lifetime degrees were spotted as fake ones and Bxx was one of these guys who had one. 

 

When his 90 days were over we had to visit the immigration near Ubon at this time when there's a nice male IO who liked foreigners a lot.

 

  At this time I was the foreign headteacher of the school and the Thai head was with us when we wanted to extend the guy's visa in Phiboon M. 

 

It was so obvious that it was a fake visa because the stamp of the IO in Ayutthaya was missing, a routine job for an experienced immigration officer.

 

   Unfortunately, it was the most important part of the visa, the missing stamp of Ayutthaya Immigration and the IO realised that within a nanosecond.

 

   First, he looked at the Thai teacher then at me and finally decided to give the idiot one more chance.

 

I felt so stupid that I didn't report him to the director of the school who’s more a friend than my boss to me, but he must have planned his steps in a way that I was all in a sudden so involved in his lies ,because I didn't give the strange information to them. 

 

The friendly immigration officer then told him that he'd have to leave the country on the same day with all the needed documents from our school and the education office the school belonged to.

 

  He'd taught at two schools in Bangkok on these fake visas and work permits, using the lifetime degree and nobody figured that out.

 

And he was so stubborn that he didn't even understand that I tried to do all to help him by getting clean documents for him in a short period of time.

 

Our Thai head was totally confused when we left the immigration and she started to produce the documents this freak needed to get legal.

 

Another problem was the shortage of foreign teachers.

 

I covered his ar_e in a way that I started to talk about a mistake Ayutthaya Immigration had done and she somehow accepted it. 

 

She knew that something was wrong, but we needed a teacher and had already wasted a lot of time with this incredible liar.

 

She even drove to the boss of the educational office on that day to get his signature that freaking Bxxx could go to Laos on the same day.

 

The guy is still teaching on his life experience degree at a school that belongs to our province and he turned out to be such an idiot to others who are seeking employment. 

 

   An immigration visa stamp and a modified work permit don't make you legal.

 

   When I think about it now, I have to admit that I'd been so stupid to cover his criminal attitude. His family was the part where I thought I'd have to help him, but I do know now that I’ve made something wrong, which I deeply regret.

 

Even now I feel that I’ve helped a criminal to become legal.

 

  Not all agents offer the right way and please make sure that you do not end up with a fake stamp in your passport.

 

Agents want to make money and some of them just don’t care how they achieve their goals.

 

If it’s too cheap, there must be something wrong. Do not try something similar, it would not work. That was eight years ago and rules were way more relaxed. 

 

Sorry for the long post, but I had to post details to warn others not to become part of these people who are so selfish that they even would blame others for their wrongdoing.'

 

 

     

 

  

 

   

 

 

 

  

 

   

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9 minutes ago, Isaanbiker said:

I'll never forget Bxxx.

 

He’d applied for a teaching position at a school somewhere in the lower northeast after teaching in Bangkok for a couple of years.

 

I’d posted an advertisement for the school and was in touch with some applicants who wanted to have the teaching position.

 

Bxxx, an English bloke had bought a fake visa and work permit from an agent in Bangkok promising all, but many people had no idea that this agent could only provide a fake one.

 

When he started at our school and told me his story, I wanted to inform the director to better keep looking for somebody else, with less criminal behavior.

 

 But his whiny excuses that he'd have three kids with a Thai lady finally changed my decision and I tried to help him for the sake of his Thai family.

 

Even offering him to get all the needed documents to apply for a real Non-B in Laos was rejected when Bxxx thought that he'd have a valid visa and work permit.

 

I should have stopped supporting/helping him at this point and tell the director/headteacher the truth about this miserable liar and suggest to take somebody who had a real degree and experience.

 

So, he started to work at our school, but nobody else knew what was really wrong with him. It was the time when lifetime degrees were spotted as fake ones and Bxx was one of these guys who had one. 

 

When his 90 days were over we had to visit the immigration near Ubon at this time when there's a nice male IO who liked foreigners a lot.

 

  At this time I was the foreign headteacher of the school and the Thai head was with us when we wanted to extend the guy's visa in Phiboon M. 

 

It was so obvious that it was a fake visa because the stamp of the IO in Ayutthaya was missing, a routine job for an experienced immigration officer.

 

   Unfortunately, it was the most important part of the visa, the missing stamp of Ayutthaya Immigration and the IO realised that within a nanosecond.

 

   First, he looked at the Thai teacher then at me and finally decided to give the idiot one more chance.

 

I felt so stupid that I didn't report him to the director of the school who’s more a friend than my boss to me, but he must have planned his steps in a way that I was all in a sudden so involved in his lies ,because I didn't give the strange information to them. 

 

The friendly immigration officer then told him that he'd have to leave the country on the same day with all the needed documents from our school and the education office the school belonged to.

 

  He'd taught at two schools in Bangkok on these fake visas and work permits, using the lifetime degree and nobody figured that out.

 

And he was so stubborn that he didn't even understand that I tried to do all to help him by getting clean documents for him in a short period of time.

 

Our Thai head was totally confused when we left the immigration and she started to produce the documents this freak needed to get legal.

 

Another problem was the shortage of foreign teachers.

 

I covered his ar_e in a way that I started to talk about a mistake Ayutthaya Immigration had done and she somehow accepted it. 

 

She knew that something was wrong, but we needed a teacher and had already wasted a lot of time with this incredible liar.

 

She even drove to the boss of the educational office on that day to get his signature that freaking Bxxx could go to Laos on the same day.

 

The guy is still teaching on his life experience degree at a school that belongs to our province and he turned out to be such an idiot to others who are seeking employment. 

 

   An immigration visa stamp and a modified work permit don't make you legal.

 

   When I think about it now, I have to admit that I'd been so stupid to cover his criminal attitude. His family was the part where I thought I'd have to help him, but I do know now that I’ve made something wrong, which I deeply regret.

 

Even now I feel that I’ve helped a criminal to become legal.

 

  Not all agents offer the right way and please make sure that you do not end up with a fake stamp in your passport.

 

Agents want to make money and some of them just don’t care how they achieve their goals.

 

If it’s too cheap, there must be something wrong. Do not try something similar, it would not work. That was eight years ago and rules were way more relaxed. 

 

Sorry for the long post, but I had to post details to warn others not to become part of these people who are so selfish that they even would blame others for their wrongdoing.'

   

don't think too gravely about it.
"Arranging" paperwork is hardly criminal, especially if he has a family to feed, and if he's doing an acceptable job, he's probably still better than many other "teachers" pretending to teach English in Thailand, even if he's an idiot.
Under the bottom line, I think Thailand benefited from making him legal.

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2 hours ago, The Cobra said:

If a visa was issued by the correct office/officer, and was later deemed to be invalid for any reason, thats a procedural issue for the immigration dept. In that the officer incorrectly issued it, it doesnt not make it illegal, it is not the recipients job to question or verify the officers decision to issue it. Thats HIS job to refuse or accept any visa application and its at his discretion.

I don't believe this. If this officer goes down for taking bribes or for whatever reason they might very well render illegal all the document that he stamped.

And when it is your visa - you are out. I will stay away from this kind of visa.

Edited by sweatalot
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1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

 

But, if you think everyone is going to jail using agents, well good luck with that thought.

 

Not everyone will go to jail or deported. But there is a real risk, because they make themselves open to attack by the law

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My previous immigration office was Chonburi (Jomtien). I then moved to CM. The first time I went to renew my extension of stay, the IO took a look at my passport and stamps and examined them carefully. She then inputted my details into the computer, all the while checking everything carefully.
By this time, I realise what she was doing - verifying the authenticity of all the stamps. As I had done the extensions myself in Jomtien, I was not in the least bit concerned and joked with her that everything is real and genuine, eliciting a smile from her. After another couple of moments, she looked up with a smile and said yes but that she had to check as Jomtien extensions have been known to be fraudulent.


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As long as you can keep all your immigration and related financial business within the corrupt loop - agent, bank official, on-side Immigration Officer - then you'll be ok. 

 

Problem arises if, for some reason, you get caught outside that bubble.  Pretty good chance to slip out of it though as long as the "right" people get involved.  Trouble is if there's some kind of crackdown in play, those corrupt people you deal aren't going to put their necks on the line. 

 

Unlikely worst case scenario would be you in a small room being asked very pointed questions to which the interviewers already know the answer.  There's no ambiguity when you're told to show relevant financial accounts and a reasonable money trail.  You can't.  800k was there, then it wasn't, and isn't now.  Where did it come from?  Where did it go?  It unravels rather quickly. 

 

Lie down with dogs, you're going to get fleas. 

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6 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

As long as you can keep all your immigration and related financial business within the corrupt loop - agent, bank official, on-side Immigration Officer - then you'll be ok. 

i guess you miss one word here - OUT.

otherwise, all you say does not make sense

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I think the summary of this thread is:

While unfortunately you are not save from trouble by law enforcement in Thailand even if you strictly abide by the law - the risk is much higher when you don't - 

for instance by using loopholes and use the service of  "loophole people".

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55 minutes ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

i guess you miss one word here - OUT.

otherwise, all you say does not make sense

The only thing that won't make sense is the 800k (retirement ext for example) being there, and then it's not. 

 

As long as you keep things in the loop though, I imagine it'll be just fine.  I can't recall ever seeing an article or report on here where somebody got pulled up for defrauding the system in this manner.  The system itself is rife with fraud and corruption, so it's all good, until it's not.   If it ever came down to a moment of truth, they'll throw your farang a** under the bus in a heartbeat.

 

So, my answer to your question is Yes, No and Maybe.  But this is Thailand, where if you don't like the answer, keep asking other people until you get the one you like.  It works, until it doesn't.  Good luck in your deliberation on wut two due. 

Edited by 55Jay
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3 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

my fear is what will happan to me, if i used such an agent, legal or not, in

case he gets caugth?

 

  If you are in fear of using an agent , the choice is yours .

   Just put 800K  , into a thai bank account , no fear...

 

 

Edited by elliss
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Moral is simple. If you meet all the requirements, then sure, use an agent for the convenience if you are so inclined. If you don’t meet the requirements, don’t complain if it ends badly.


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I find this a bit funny.

Foreigners that know better play acting that they're not participating in corruption because when in Rome it's a corrupt culture blah blah blah. 

Play those games, you take your chances. 

The risk may be very small but feigning ignorance of what you're doing ain't gonna cut it.

They had a nice office!

Free coffee was offered!

They've been around for 10 years!

The owner drives a Benz!

They advertise here, there, everywhere!

Easy visas -- you don't need to fund the 800K say their ads. Big signs! If it was not "legal" they would have been busted long ago. 

Must be legit.

 

On the other hand, following the rules by the letter has it's costs too. Literally. 

Edited by Jingthing
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9 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

i know of a case in another country, not thailand, when the visa stamp holder was arrested in the airport, because the agent used fake visa stamps (you pay him for the "visa extention", give him

Listen , there are more than 10 000 retired expats right now only using agents and who do not have the 800k in the bank, and been doing so for many years, you would be surprised how many. But you need to stay in the Pattaya / Bangkok region.   
The stamps are legal because they are official!y stamped by an IO. 

If the agent will get in trouble later , that's not your problem. 
 

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9 hours ago, The Cobra said:

I have know of instances where the person actually accompanies the agent into the Thai immigration office to have their photo taken etc and received the visa stamp in front of the issuing officer ! there isno way that can be deemed illegal, it is not the responsibility of the recipient to question or not the validity of the stamp/visa issued by the lawful authority.

My agent took me to the IO, my 4th retirement extension,  took the money off me  25 k  passed a portion to the IO behind the desk who noted my photo needed replacing, after i got the new pic i handed it, my pp, and bank book to same IO and the day after, got my docs teturned with stamped extension and my multi entri.

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12 hours ago, The Cobra said:

If the services were illegal they would not be allowed to operate and certainly not allowed to advertise the service.

Haha, you know you are in Thailand right? Can you think of any other service that is well advertised, is actually illegal and yet is allowed. You should be able to. 

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1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

Haha, you know you are in Thailand right? Can you think of any other service that is well advertised, is actually illegal and yet is allowed. You should be able to. 

I think you are talkig about the oldest profession, but you could also add the second oldest profession:  teaching.  If you look at a few of the FB groups, the people advertising are often illegal, and it appears that there is near zero chance of you ever being legal.  Almost as brazen as the whacky weed sellers. 

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13 hours ago, SCOTT FITZGERSLD said:

 the fee of 15K baht is worth it, if i can keep 800K out of thailand.

investing 800K in conservative way , with 3% annual return, will bring

24K annual profit, which will cover the visa agents commision.

It is not "profit" if it is earmarked to be paid annually to a visa agent. IMO

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