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Northern Ireland's DUP says it cannot support Brexit deal as it stands

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2 hours ago, englishoak said:

Confused yet ? :whistling:

He isn't up yet! 😄

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2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

You think UKIP might get 1 MP?

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Say what you like about ukip,but they bought down a UK prime minister,all remain and their antics are doing is accelerating far right wing politics.

Edited by kingdong
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Are they just posturing in order to "sell" their vote on Saturday for some form of economic stimulus package (or similar)?

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1 hour ago, MRToMRT said:

Are they just posturing in order to "sell" their vote on Saturday for some form of economic stimulus package (or similar)?

If you mean the DUP, it could be or maybe not. You have to appreciate the entire and sole reason the DUP exists is to make sure NI stays part of the UK. Its a bit like the Brexit party, take away the sole reason for being and the party ceases to have any relevance. 

 

It would depend on what their true motivations are and if they truly understand where the future is taking them all on the emerald Isle. And that is unification. I dont think many people anymore believe in an indefinite separated Ireland, certainly not in Ireland and not on the mainland other than old die hard unionists and the argument for that is ? well because that's the United Kingdom 4 nations as one... Well thats been changing over the last decade, Scotlands been flexing and has its own powers. Wales has had powers devolved. So does N Ireland until lately. Stormont The Northern Ireland assembly collapsed almost three years ago after a row between the DUP and Sinn Féin and remains suspended. As time moves on the support and case for a united Ireland grows stronger.

 

The DUP dont hold as much influence in NI as they used to and that will continue to errode, will they decided to delay the inevitable again and risk a no deal and leaving without ? in a no deal It will hurt all on that Island the most or will they take the coin one last time from the UK and accept the future trend with grace and retire with a robust and prosperous N I by the time it does unify  ?  they could turn themselves into heroes if they have the vision and foresight. I hope they do.

 

Personally I hope and think they are holding out for some more investment and suspect they will get it if they are, they will no doubt be gauging how the numbers look with or without them and negotiate with the UK gov accordingly. 

 

Interesting few days coming up. 

 

 

Edited by englishoak
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A reminder.

 

When PM Harold Wilson sent British Troops to Northern Ireland it was not to combat the IRA/Nationalists.

 

It was to combat the Unionists who were killing Nationalists and Catholics.

 

The DUP objections to this deal are not a small, insignificant matter.

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14 hours ago, kingdong said:

This whole fiasco is reaching Monty python status,a big thank you from me and every other person suffering from it to Gina miller,and all the mps unwilling to accept democracy.

Without the rule of law, I would not accept democracy. Pure democracy without the rule of law would be terrible - I mean, we could all vote to have you killed. That is why we have the limitations by law on all sorts of things, whatever your views on Brexit or any other issue you care to mention.

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4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I'm starting to think this deal is meant to fail, then Boris can play whatever card he has up his sleeve to get around the surrender act for No Deal and claim he tried his best but Parliament voted against the deal so they got no deal. I hope I'm right.

 

 

That of course is entirely possible, but i doubt it, Boris has never been a no dealer but he is on the block and people do the most unusual things for political survival.

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5 minutes ago, englishoak said:

 

Once 9/11 happened and US funding stopped the shooting and violence subsided, leaving the only and best option of political negotiation. to everyone's credit involved there was a breakthrough.  The importance f good Friday agreement and its achievement cannot be understated.

 

 

???

The agreement is made up of two inter-related documents, both agreed in Belfast on Good Friday, 10 April 1998:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

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16 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

???

The agreement is made up of two inter-related documents, both agreed in Belfast on Good Friday, 10 April 1998:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

My bad structure, I should have had "there was a breakthrough" before 9/11 not after it, sorry about that. No one initially expected the agreement to hold, luckily 9/11 killed off all further funding making political solution that much easier

 

You do realise that shootings and violence from both sides continued well after 98  yes ? https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/the-cruel-peace-killings-in-northern-ireland-since-the-good-friday-agreement Other troublesome Ex IRA members were also neutralised in one manner or another again by both sides.It didnt all just stop. 

 

Edited by englishoak

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1 hour ago, englishoak said:

 

That time was 2 generations ago, I lived through those times and the blowback of the 80s cleaning up bits of bodies in London aftermath attacks thank you. N I is im happy to say a very different place now. 

 

Im not suggesting the DUPs objections are insignificant, im suggesting the trend is towards unification and that will not diminish. Largely helped by Catholicism becoming more and more irrelevant ( its own fault by corruption and scandals ) and Sinn Féin negotiating politically rather than the IRA running about blowing things up. Once 9/11 happened and US funding stopped the shooting and violence subsided, leaving the only and best option of political negotiation. to everyone's credit involved there was a breakthrough.  The importance f good Friday agreement and its achievement cannot be understated.

 

The old and mainly religious excuses for violence dont hold up anymore and thats a good thing. 

 

 

The excuses where never religious and you are a fool if you think they are not still a matter of grave concern.

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44 minutes ago, englishoak said:

My bad structure, I should have had "there was a breakthrough" before 9/11 not after it, sorry about that. No one initially expected the agreement to hold, luckily 9/11 killed off all further funding making political solution that much easier

 

You do realise that shootings and violence from both sides continued well after 98  yes ? https://www.thedetail.tv/articles/the-cruel-peace-killings-in-northern-ireland-since-the-good-friday-agreement Other troublesome Ex IRA members were also neutralised in one manner or another again by both sides.It didnt all just stop. 

 

The breakthrough came when the IRA bombed the city of London.

 

An attack which demonstrated where a nation’s weakness is.

 

A point not missed by those who planned and executed 9/11.

 

The attack on the City of London was the precursor of both a settlement in NI and 9/11.

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21 minutes ago, JAG said:

Northern Ireland in the late 1960s and first years of the 1970s was a very different place. You are right, the Army was deployed to protect the Catholic/Nationalist population from the Protestant/Unionist community. But then, the Unionists had almost complete hegemony. Through frankly a gerrymandered local parliament they controlled and deployed an armed politicised police force, with a paramilitary and devotedly sectarian armed reserve force, Industry, jobs, housing, education and even such mundane matters as onto which routes the newer more reliable buses were put to run was controlled by the Unionist regime on a sectarian basis. That changed over the next twenty years. Sectarianism still exists - there are still the red-faced frothy mouthed bigots who feel that it is their noble cultural tradition to stand outside Catholic churches during Mass at certain times of the year, scruffy second hand bandsman's uniforms unable to fasten up over bulging beer bellies, and bang big drums and shout "<deleted> the Pope". I watched their ridiculous performances on many occasions. The other side has many of the same proclivities with their marches.

 

The demographics in the province are changing, there is near parity between the communities. and the current system of government is frankly politically and economically unsustainable. The DUP may well push for more investment - call it a bribe - but they will also be aware that the present peculiar circumstances which leave them holding the balance of power at Westminster will be unlikely to last beyond the next election - especially if, as is likely, that election results from them foiling this deal, and produces a government with a solid majority, either for leave or remain. They will go back to representing a dwindling community of red faced, beer bellied, drum bangers!

 

Any reasonable, sensible, logical approach suggests that the DUP recognises this reality, and engages sensibly with the future of the province. This future must include recognising that the bulk of the island remains part of the EU, and accommodate that fact.

 

But then again, a Northern Irish political party with sectarian roots - reasonable, sensible, logical?

You have a great deal more faith in the brokers of power on both sides of that mess behaving like civilized human beings than I do.

 

Johnson’ ‘surrender agreement’ represents a very significant loss to Unionist in NI. 

 

He’s playing with fire.

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