To use an agent or not?

[Lacessit]

After about 6 years using an agent, I decided to try the DIY option. Two reasons – the strength of the baht, and I couldn’t see the agency staff were really working all that hard for what I was paying them.

With the agent, the usual routine was I would provide them with documents they requested. They would assemble everything, I’d sign them, then I would get their taxi service a couple of days later to CM Immigration in the afternoon. Quite painless, anywhere between half to one and a half hours, with an agency employee guiding me every step of the process. 5500 baht plus the regulation fees for bank letter, extension and re-entry permit.

 

With ubonjoe’s advice and help, I did all the necessary paper incantations. Thailand would grind to a halt if there was an interruption to paper supply. Update my bank book at 9 am, get to Chiang Mai Immigration at 9.30 am. Note to self – Immigration doesn’t give a toss about updated bankbooks when the application is handled through an agent. The bank letter and statement are already several days old.

 

Glitch # 1. You should have been here at 7 am. Come back tomorrow.

 

By now, I’ve worked out the easiest way to update the bankbook is deposit 500 baht in the cash machine, then use the passbook update machine to get the new balance. Which I do at 6 am the next day. Arrive at 6.15 am at CM Immigration, about 100 people already there. Incredibly in the scrum that follows when the counters open at 7.30 am, I get ticket RE3, so I am third in line. I get called an hour later, retirement extension first.

 

Glitch # 2. The downloadable TM 7 form doesn’t match up with what is favoured by CM Immigration, so I am given their preferred version to fill out. Curiously, the passport photo stays on the downloadable form

 

Glitch # 3. I have a new bank book, with only a couple of entries. She wants to see the old one, which fortunately I have. Please go across the road and copy all entries up to one year back. I’m thinking she really only needs three months back, which is on the bank statement. I do as I am told.

 

I get the approved extension back at 9.30 am. Three hours. Now for the re-entry permit.

 

Glitch # 4. Please go across the road and get a copy of the updated extension to attach to the TM8 form. Again, note to self – Immigration doesn’t give a rat’s about the updated extension when an agent is handling the TM8 application.

 

I’m out of there by 10.30. There’s a French guy there with the ticket RE19, so he might still be waiting at 4 pm.

 

All up, an interesting learning curve. On the basis of the agent’s fee, the money I have saved equates to my time being worth about 1500 baht/hour. You pay your money, you take your choice.

[spiekerjozef]

agent is the better option

Edited October 19, 2019 by spiekerjozef

[Puchaiyank]

There is a reoccurring theme when expats deal directly with immigration...agents are given preferential treatment...wonder why that is?

[ianezy0]

Nice one. When you go next time it will be a lot faster now that you know what they want.

you can now celebrate with some free beers from your savings ???? 

[DrJack54]

10 minutes ago, spiekerjozef said:

agent is the better option

Why? Agents are great option for folk eg unable to have 800k in bank. 

I attended CW Oct 8. Went to bank obtained bank letter and at same time made deposit to show activity. Imm has all the major banks. The rest was walk in the park. Arrived 11.40 got my que #, had meal 12-1pm. Home by 3.15 with 1 hr travel. As far as reentry permit, what's with obtain at imm. I get it at airport 10 mins. 

Agents are for folk without the criteria.

Edited October 19, 2019 by DrJack54

[Momofarang]

8 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Why? Agents are great option for folk eg unable to have 800k in bank. 

I attended CW Oct 8. Went to bank obtained bank letter and at same time made deposit to show activity. Imm has all the major banks. The rest was walk in the park. Arrived 11.40 got my que #, had meal 12-1pm. Home by 3.15 with 1 hr travel. As far as reentry permit, what's with obtain at imm. I get it at airport 10 mins. 

Agents are for folk without the criteria.

Yeah, you keep repeating that agents are a good help to break the law...

[Lungstib]

I did my 1 year extension for marriage at C Mai 2 weeks ago. I live the far side of Tha Ton so have to drive down one day, go in next morning. It often takes 3 days. This time I was there at 8.30am, they never sent us away, I did have all the correct paperwork, finally got number 7 and was done before lunch. Never had it so easy before. Just shows how things change from day to day and the mood of that person was handles the copies.

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, Momofarang said:

Yeah, you keep repeating that agents are a good help to break the law...

You kidding. Show me which law is broken by people using an agent. Get your facts correct. BTW personally never used an agent.

[tgeezer]

Thank you Lacessit I have often wondered what would happen if one stopped using an agent.  Naturally if you meet all the conditions you are paying only for convenience so it is natural for those who have lost the income to show you how inconvenient the process actually is. You were given a classic run-around and the reason seems obvious but it may also be because the person with whom you dealt took a dislike to you. 

[kralledr]

6 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

You kidding. Show me which law is broken by people using an agent. Get your facts correct. BTW personally never used an agent.

Not having the 800k, is already broken the law...they basicly scam the immigration, because rhey not really have the money in the bank

[worgeordie]

It's so easy to do yourself now,no waiting in line at 4 in the morning,

all you need are all the correct paperwork,which is not rocket science

get everything in order,which is not a lot,2.5 hrs for me last time,from

the bank opening to walking out the door at immigration.BUT some

people need their hand holding.

regards worgeordie

 

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, kralledr said:

Not having the 800k, is already broken the law...they basicly scam the immigration, because rhey not really have the money in the bank

Another novice. The "higher up" imm have the discretion to overlook the money in bank. That's called grease the wheels. 

They do not scam imm. They pay a "service fee" to imm

[Lacessit]

11 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Thank you Lacessit I have often wondered what would happen if one stopped using an agent.  Naturally if you meet all the conditions you are paying only for convenience so it is natural for those who have lost the income to show you how inconvenient the process actually is. You were given a classic run-around and the reason seems obvious but it may also be because the person with whom you dealt took a dislike to you. 

I don't think it was a matter of being disliked, I just didn't fit a couple of the templates.

Definitely elderly, infirm people need an agent. The Thai respect for age is a shibboleth as far as elderly non-Thais are concerned. No consideration whatsoever.

[Matzzon]

15 minutes ago, kralledr said:

Not having the 800k, is already broken the law...they basicly scam the immigration, because rhey not really have the money in the bank

Totally wrong. This all has to do with the individual discretion. If that was not existing, there would be no agents that can fix extension without the applicants proof of money. They have contact with a high ranking officer, that just waive the need for the show of money for their clients. After that it´s just for the applicatnt to let the same agent use the same officer for do the 90 days reports as well. So, the agent is not breaking any laws. The applicant is not breaking any laws. The Immigration Officer is not breaking any law, thanks to his individual discretion.

[Andrew Dwyer]

The diy option, whilst obviously cheaper, brings up some different situations.

 

In my case, I got the bank letter and a 6 month statement ( 200 baht ) from BKK bank nearest the IO.

I also updated my bank book, something I rarely do ,and there was a big jump in the transfers and withdrawals etc, hence the statement came into play.

 

I had the usual copies of passport but the IO insisted on a copy of every page of my passport , plus , a copy of every page of my bank book !! ( thankfully they didn’t charge me )

 

I also had a copy of my gf’s ID and Tabian Baan ( as my landlord )requested, luckily I had these available.

 

Got a re-entry permit at the same time.

 

My passport was passed to the next desk for signing and after the IO had made another 3 copies of my passport (????) I was done.

 

It was all done in a friendly manner and only took quite a while because of a van load of visiting monks in front of me !!

 

Ayutthaya IO is a small friendly office and makes the whole process go smoothly and stress free.

 

If only they could cut down on the flagrant waste of copies !! ☹️

 

[Lacessit]

37 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Why? Agents are great option for folk eg unable to have 800k in bank. 

I attended CW Oct 8. Went to bank obtained bank letter and at same time made deposit to show activity. Imm has all the major banks. The rest was walk in the park. Arrived 11.40 got my que #, had meal 12-1pm. Home by 3.15 with 1 hr travel. As far as reentry permit, what's with obtain at imm. I get it at airport 10 mins. 

Agents are for folk without the criteria.

According to the French guy I spoke to, CW is easy compared to CM Immigration.

I did notice most of the work was done by female officers. The function of many male officers there seemed to be either strutting around, or interrupting the females with chit-chat.

One guy there with a microphone was delivering instructions in Thai and badly-accented English periodically. I'm sure most of the assembled populace wished he would shut up, because he was drowning out the calls to ticket numbers on a quieter circuit.

Agents are also for folk who want convenience, and that costs.

[Orton Rd]

30 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

You kidding. Show me which law is broken by people using an agent. Get your facts correct. BTW personally never used an agent.

It is illegal for an IO to take money to ignore the money requirement. but not if no bribe is involved. Did anyone ever hear of a case where they ignored the money rules without a bribe? corruption is not legal is it and that is what it is. Using an agent to hold your hand is completely different of course, then you are just queue jumping.

[Lacessit]

49 minutes ago, ianezy0 said:

Nice one. When you go next time it will be a lot faster now that you know what they want.

you can now celebrate with some free beers from your savings ???? 

I celebrated with a beef tornedo and a small carafe of a decent house red at an Italian restaurant.

[Orton Rd]

10 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Totally wrong. This all has to do with the individual discretion. If that was not existing, there would be no agents that can fix extension without the applicants proof of money. They have contact with a high ranking officer, that just waive the need for the show of money for their clients. After that it´s just for the applicatnt to let the same agent use the same officer for do the 90 days reports as well. So, the agent is not breaking any laws. The applicant is not breaking any laws. The Immigration Officer is not breaking any law, thanks to his individual discretion.

If bribing an IO to ignore the money rules were legal you would not NEED and agent. Taking money to ignore the rules is not discretion, it's greed and corrupt.

[Lacessit]

9 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Totally wrong. This all has to do with the individual discretion. If that was not existing, there would be no agents that can fix extension without the applicants proof of money. They have contact with a high ranking officer, that just waive the need for the show of money for their clients. After that it´s just for the applicatnt to let the same agent use the same officer for do the 90 days reports as well. So, the agent is not breaking any laws. The applicant is not breaking any laws. The Immigration Officer is not breaking any law, thanks to his individual discretion.

The immigration officer is not doing this because he is good-natured. The agent is paying him for exercising discretion and accelerating the process. That is bribery in most jurisdictions.

The point that seems to be missed is that if the immigration officer stretches discretion too far and gets caught, it is the agent's client who gets dropped in it with a voided visa.

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

It is illegal for an IO to take money to ignore the money requirement. but not if no bribe is involved. Did anyone ever hear of a case where they ignored the money rules without a bribe? corruption is not legal is it and that is what it is. Using an agent to hold your hand is completely different of course, then you are just queue jumping.

Can you explain that in plain English. In other words, is it "acceptable" to use an agent to facilitate an extension in situation where applicant does not have required funds in bank?

If your answer is no, please explain how thousands are using agents and I have never read a report of trouble with such on TV.

Yes there was issues some years ago with fake stamps. Completely different gig and highly illegal.

BTW ,I have used an agent. I have no dog in this debate. Just relying on facts.

[Matzzon]

30 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The immigration officer is not doing this because he is good-natured. The agent is paying him for exercising discretion and accelerating the process. That is bribery in most jurisdictions.

The point that seems to be missed is that if the immigration officer stretches discretion too far and gets caught, it is the agent's client who gets dropped in it with a voided visa.

What jurisdictions are you talking about? Different states in the USA? England, Scotland and Wales or just Liverpool? Eritrea, South Africa or Ghana? Brazil or Colombia?

This is Thailand. Welcome to your new world. Instead of grasping over something to post as a reply, can´t you just bring up the law you´re talking about. I would really like to see it and read it. ???? 

If you can´t do that, then I suggest that we end this discussion at this point.

 

Please also at the same time name a couple of incidents where the streching of discretion has been leading to any problem for the applicant of the extension.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Matzzon

[4evermaat]

35 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

.......

The point that seems to be missed is that if the immigration officer stretches discretion too far and gets caught, it is the agent's client who gets dropped in it with a voided visa.

 

Unlikely, especially if there are several palms getting greased.  IO boss discretion + his/her boss + his/her boss.   Usually it might temporarily stop or shift a bit when a new boss comes in.   I doubt the brown envelopes will 100% stop [permanently]

 

It does also depend on the office.  CM seems to have cleaned up their act to where you actually can attempt to do it yourself without having to queue from 04:00.  But even then, there is the issue of convenience.  Especially if you reside 80+km from the nearest office that accepts applications.   It's not just people who need certain [financial] requirements waived.

 

edit:  and the applications are actually getting processed.   It would be different if money was paid, but nothing was gained.

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by 4evermaat

[swissie]

The most important thing is to remember that there are "Agents and Agents".
Stay away from "low-cost-agents".
- With a good agent, no 800K will have to be deposited. Will also do your 90 day reports at no additional charge.
Make sure, that at least 1 staff-member speaks good English/or your native language.
Have good address in Pattaya (English/German). In business for decades. For details, can PM me.

[Orton Rd]

People using agents because they do not have the necessary money in the bank are setting themselves up for potential problems in the future. 800k is hardly a large amount and living on the breadline, which a lot of these jokers are, becomes a crisis if huge medical bills are needed to be paid. Unfortunately you cannot bribe the Doctors to use their discretion about paying them. What are the agent payers going to do when they bring in compulsory health insurance for extensions, more bribes and under the table dealings? Horrible way to extend your stay here, but the agents and IO's who are exploiting ex pats poverty or desperation are more than happy of course.

[trd]

Why? Agents are great option for folk eg unable to have 800k in bank. 

I attended CW Oct 8. Went to bank obtained bank letter and at same time made deposit to show activity. Imm has all the major banks. The rest was walk in the park. Arrived 11.40 got my que #, had meal 12-1pm. Home by 3.15 with 1 hr travel. As far as reentry permit, what's with obtain at imm. I get it at airport 10 mins. 

Agents are for folk without the criteria.

And for those with the criteria who just find it convenient and time saving.

 

[RichardColeman]

 

1 hour ago, Orton Rd said:

but the agents and IO's who are exploiting ex pats poverty or desperation

I'm guessing the view from the penthouse must be good

[Lacessit]

10 hours ago, Matzzon said:

What jurisdictions are you talking about? Different states in the USA? England, Scotland and Wales or just Liverpool? Eritrea, South Africa or Ghana? Brazil or Colombia?

This is Thailand. Welcome to your new world. Instead of grasping over something to post as a reply, can´t you just bring up the law you´re talking about. I would really like to see it and read it. ???? 

If you can´t do that, then I suggest that we end this discussion at this point.

 

Please also at the same time name a couple of incidents where the streching of discretion has been leading to any problem for the applicant of the extension.

You seem to be confusing me with someone who is on a moral high horse. If you had bothered to read my OP, you can see I've been here for a number of years and I have some knowledge of the way the system works. And I have used it previously.

Are you seriously suggesting Thailand has no laws concerning bribery of government officials? Last time I looked, Thailand had laws about prostitution and gambling which are definitely more honoured in the breach than the observance.

No, I can't name instances of problems. I am pointing out a risk factor. You think I have a pipeline into Immigration?

You are welcome to bottle up your vitriol and take it off this thread at any time.

[Matzzon]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You seem to be confusing me with someone who is on a moral high horse. If you had bothered to read my OP, you can see I've been here for a number of years and I have some knowledge of the way the system works. And I have used it previously.

Are you seriously suggesting Thailand has no laws concerning bribery of government officials? Last time I looked, Thailand had laws about prostitution and gambling which are definitely more honoured in the breach than the observance.

No, I can't name instances of problems. I am pointing out a risk factor. You think I have a pipeline into Immigration?

You are welcome to bottle up your vitriol and take it off this thread at any time.

Fair enough, I am sure you have been living here and have knowledge about how the system works. That´s not the point here. You started replying to me about that the law was broken when an applicant using an agent get the financials waived by a high ranking Immigration Officer that has that power by his given individual discretion.

The only thing I am doing is asking you to show me the law you base your reply on, or just admitt it´s only your opinion and not the facts which means you have to admitt you´re wrong.

[transam]

7 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Fair enough, I am sure you have been living here and have knowledge about how the system works. That´s not the point here. You started replying to me about that the law was broken when an applicant using an agent get the financials waived by a high ranking Immigration Officer that has that power by his given individual discretion.

The only thing I am doing is asking you to show me the law you base your reply on, or just admitt it´s only your opinion and not the facts which means you have to admitt you´re wrong.

Is there a law that high ranking imm officers can waiver/give an extension via an agent (because the applicant has no money) for a fee, or do you think it is done from the kindness of their heart....?