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Johnson faces perilous Brexit ratification after deal vote blocked


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3 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think it is unfortunate that sensible people are not readily moved to violence, as it may be better to come now, than when the rest of us realise how sadly they have been short-changed, and our commitment to civic decency breaks down.

Sadly I think you're right - I pray that some of our northern towns and cities where I am from (Preston)  don't rot Detroit City stylee - where business , civility and order break down and crime and survival of the fittest rules the day. The rich will live in gated communities and have private security forces. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, StreetCowboy said:

Post-Brexit, we can take in slave labour from the third world, without any of the labour protection rules that the EU used to foist on us innocent Britons.  RESULT!

Yeah - have two tier wage system for 'gest-arbeiters'. As long as the immigrants are tagged/microchipped and live in compounds on temporary visas so they can easily be rounded up and sent home when their time expires. Problem is as the pound goes ever downwards who would want to come ?

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1 hour ago, StreetCowboy said:

Directed by the tech-savvy.

 

Back in the day, the common man went through life with a grumbling resentment and a feeling of oppressive discontent.  
 

In the 1960s and 1970s, we learnt that we could rise up and rebel against this, but it did us no good, because the people we were rebelling against were our older selves, and by the time our rebellion got anywhere, we were establishment.

 

In the 80s and 90s, we realised that we had to play the game, we had to struggle, society would not look after us and we had to make our own way.

 

Then came the millenium, and we realised that zero hour contracts and the receding welfare state meant that even if you struggled, even if you fought, prosperity was a fantasy, not a dream.

 

Now we have the post-fact world, driven by social media, where people's reality is driven by the sources from where they get their newsfeed.  If we win the battle of Brexit, we will be fortunate indeed.  If we lose the battle of Brexit, but people awaken to the war that we are fighting, we will have got off lightly.

 

Boris Johnston and Jacob Rees-Mogg are not common men, and do not have common men's interests at heart.

All these may very well be, but is it possible that Brexit might be a product of the dynamics you describe,

Might you ne jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

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4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

All these may very well be, but is it possible that Brexit might be a product of the dynamics you describe,

Might you ne jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

Brexit is just the first disaster of many.  Unfortunately, those that follow may seem less significant.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Brexit is just the first disaster of many.  Unfortunately, those that follow may seem less significant.

 

 

 

I know it is pessimistic, but I also think , things will get worse before they get better.

We are at the beginning of a transition from the industrial era to the Information ara, and unfortunately still clinging to industrial era systems. There is comfort and perceived safety in the way we did  things , dangers in change , so me resist making the necessary adjustment. 

In sales and seminars on overcoming objections,  There was always a common tread, "fear of loss is stronger than the desire for gain" 

IMO it will take a lot more pain before we relent and accept the inevitable. 

I like the british people and don't want to see bad things happen to them . so I don't want to see brexit happen, But IMO they are also an impediment  towards the EU reforms  necessary for the viability of the Union.

Three years wasted by the long goodbye,

  IMO more integration not less is necessary. but as I said people are clinging to memories of past glories, nationalism, racism. and cultural superiority.

  And then there are those who manipulate these dynamics for their own gain.you know who they are.

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Was you expecting Boris to commit suicide and actually die in a ditch ?
Boris didnt even state that he would do that , cant believe we are having basic English comprehension discussions 
Yes. I was fully expecting Boris to commit ritual hari-kiri in a properly prepared ditch. And like Rudolph Valentino, anticipate a spate of followers to emulate his heroic end

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No, because I voted to leave by whatever means...I am sure there are many like me who just wanted out. Why should we bend over now because some don't like the way we are leaving. We are leaving, that's it....
What you and others voted for is just one of the many permutations leading to the referendum vote. No evidence of any majority and no majority in Parliament. So that leaves no-deal as the pest option.

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English humour is a typical thing for the U.K.. 

 

There is also the "figure of speech" thing, apparently saying something must not always be considered to the letter of it. 

 

So, it seems that

"Leave" "Brexit" 

can now be considered as "English Humour"

or/and 

"A figure of speech". 

 

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21 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

English humour is a typical thing for the U.K.. 

 

There is also the "figure of speech" thing, apparently saying something must not always be considered to the letter of it. 

 

So, it seems that

"Leave"

can now be considered as "English Humour"

or/and 

"A figure of speech". 

 

I'm sometimes dissappointed in the attitude of my European brothers towards Brexit. You should remember that almost half of us really don't want to leave. Would be more helpful if you posted something like this:

 

 

 

We've spent 45 years together. I'm not leaving without a fight.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

I'm sometimes dissappointed in the attitude of my European brothers towards Brexit

We see what is happening, and we comment, deeply serious in the beginning, but it became laughable. 

 

Should we stay, or should we go, 

 

fix your intern problems, and we will again take you seriously. 

 

In the meantime the joke is on you. 

 

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13 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

We see what is happening, and we comment, deeply serious in the beginning, but it became laughable. 

 

Should we stay, or should we go, 

 

fix your intern problems, and we will again take you seriously. 

 

In the meantime the joke is on you. 

 

Up to you.

 

 

Don't worry we're fixing it. It's just taking a little longer than expected. We need to get rid of our leader (Corbin) first.

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13 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Don't bother even giving the "just leave" trope the slightest credibility. The Hard Brexiteers were in full opposition to Theresa May's agreement.

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You make an assumption, as usual your input is remain bias, but don't worry, I won't put you on ignore....????

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12 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Most people have moved onto the latest news on Brexit. Read the OP on this thread, it's old news now and largely irrelevant. Do try and keep up.

The "Do try to keep up" quote is used to try to belittle a member, please don't use it with me.

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4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

What you and others voted for is just one of the many permutations leading to the referendum vote. No evidence of any majority and no majority in Parliament. So that leaves no-deal as the pest option.

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Ah, you are stuck for something clever to say, I see...????

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On 10/22/2019 at 8:11 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

Yesterday I took the time to watch this video in which Keir Starmer presents lots of valid points.

Boris deal is bad, he tries to hide the details and he tries to rush it through parliament.

How can any politician support a PM with such bad intentions and a record of telling anything but the truth?

 

 

Well they did it in 1972.

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17 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

We voted to “Leave”. That was the option on the ballot paper.

 

The picture of “Leave” was painted by D. Cameron in his Chatham House speech.

Obviously in your world everyone sees a picture in the same way and the light has no effect on the appearance. Extremely short sighted.

 

Cameron unlocked the door and the hard liners have kicked it wide open to the dark side. Johnson has an agenda that has probably been overlooked by the majority.

Can you explain why the Trade Bill that had passed through the HOC and the Lords has been dropped in the Queens Speech?

The Trade Bill was an impediment to TTIP, something Johnson has in his sights, extremely bad for the UK but would provide some with a very comfortable retirement. I suspect many brexiteers would be more than happy to sign up to TTIP, it would prevent the UK ever rejoining the EU. Remember the saying about nose and face.

TTIP would bring in ISDS - Investor-State Dispute Settlement

 

If you wanted to convince the public that international trade agreements are a way to let multinational companies get rich at the expense of ordinary people, this is what you would do: give foreign firms a special right to apply to a secretive tribunal of highly paid corporate lawyers for compensation whenever a government passes a law to, say, discourage smoking, protect the environment or prevent a nuclear catastrophe. Yet that is precisely what thousands of trade and investment treaties over the past half century have done, through a process known as 'investor-state dispute settlement', or ISDS.

The Economist, October 2014

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlement

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6 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Up to you.

 

 

Don't worry we're fixing it. It's just taking a little longer than expected. We need to get rid of our leader (Corbin) first.

That's just the problem in your politics ,...each party  & and each fraction in those party's are still fighting their own catfight's …. at the cost of your United Kingdom ….Corbyn keep the key to sudden G.E. liberals don't like giving him the opposition card priority as temporary PM , and play so the card for Boris again who push to Corbyn …..terrible politic mess 

 

Europe get tired of that 3years + is enough …., 2 agreed deals by your respective PM's besides all other options ...refused by HOC....face it U.K.... it is not possible to agree amongst your self's  

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It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.

 

Charles Dickens , A Tale of Two Cities

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I know it is pessimistic, but I also think , things will get worse before they get better.
We are at the beginning of a transition from the industrial era to the Information ara, and unfortunately still clinging to industrial era systems. There is comfort and perceived safety in the way we did  things , dangers in change , so me resist making the necessary adjustment. 
In sales and seminars on overcoming objections,  There was always a common tread, "fear of loss is stronger than the desire for gain" 
IMO it will take a lot more pain before we relent and accept the inevitable. 
I like the british people and don't want to see bad things happen to them . so I don't want to see brexit happen, But IMO they are also an impediment  towards the EU reforms  necessary for the viability of the Union.
Three years wasted by the long goodbye,
  IMO more integration not less is necessary. but as I said people are clinging to memories of past glories, nationalism, racism. and cultural superiority.
  And then there are those who manipulate these dynamics for their own gain.you know who they are.
Not so much holding on to industrial systems... The UK has made as good, if not better, transition as many other economies in moving to a post-industrial economy. The pre-eminence of the City is but one example. However...what the Hard Brexiteers have fraudulently tried to represent is a promised return to industrial production, the demise of which, as everything else, has been blamed on EU membership. Appealing to the uneducated and old, resentful at being left behind in a knowledge economy, the appeal of dead-end populism still attractive to some.


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Just now, SheungWan said:

Not so much holding on to industrial systems... The UK has made as good, if not better, transition as many other economies in moving to a post-industrial economy. The pre-eminence of the City is but one example. However...what the Hard Brexiteers have fraudulently tried to represent is a promised return to industrial production, the demise of which, as everything else, has been blamed on EU membership. Appealing to the uneducated and old, resentful at being left behind in a knowledge economy, the appeal of dead-end populism still attractive to some.


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Good morning........Nice to see you posting the same ol' garb today....????

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38 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Not so much holding on to industrial systems... The UK has made as good, if not better, transition as many other economies in moving to a post-industrial economy. The pre-eminence of the City is but one example. However...what the Hard Brexiteers have fraudulently tried to represent is a promised return to industrial production, the demise of which, as everything else, has been blamed on EU membership. Appealing to the uneducated and old, resentful at being left behind in a knowledge economy, the appeal of dead-end populism still attractive to some.


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36 minutes ago, transam said:

Good morning........Nice to see you posting the same ol' garb today....????

 

 

There is a very good point being made there. Brexiters, in particular, are always talking about tariffs and trade, completely ignoring that 65% of British exports are services, completely  unaffected by tariffs and customs unions, but which rely on the single market to give us access to Europe.

 

Even many manufactured items are now sold as services - an example being aircraft engines which are leased with a maintenance contract rather than being sold. Currently British engineers service these, but these people will now need work permits and carnets for their tools whenever they go and work in the EU. Their British certifications of competence will no longer be recognized automatically and they will need to re-register in the EU.    

 

I suppose it's possible that with the removal of workers rights they might be able to drive British wages down to Chinese levels   so we can compete in manufacturing again, but i don't think that's what leavers voted for !

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16 hours ago, sirineou said:

  IMO more integration not less is necessary. but as I said people are clinging to memories of past glories, nationalism, racism. and cultural superiority.

The word I was looking for when I wrote this is "EthnoCentrism" and all the unfortunate waste of capital in maintaining it.I recognise the need to maintain one's identity but we also need to understand that this identity is always , but gradually changing., 

Sometimes we are willing to cut of our nose to spite our face

To be fair to those disturbed by the changes and reacting with brexit and in other ways, This change from the industrial era to the information era has accelerated this constant natural change to a speed not comfortable by some.  

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40 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Irrelevant. Transam doesn't need a reason to throw out personal insults and meaningless one liners to remainers.

That reads like you don't read remainers posts....????

 

It also reads like you don't like replies to yourself....Sorry about that...????

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1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Appealing to the uneducated and old, resentful at being left behind in a knowledge economy, the appeal of dead-end populism still attractive to some.

 Eloquently stated.:clap2:  

A promise to take some to a place that no longer exist. A Don Quixotic  endeavor IMO but unfortunate for the Sancho Panzas of the world. 

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