Jump to content
BANGKOK
webfact

Over to EU on Brexit delay, Johnson says after parliament rejects swift decision

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, JAG said:

It is not at all clear that the UK is leaving the EU.

 

It is clear that the people of the UK voted three years ago in a simple binary question referendum (in or out). They voted by a clear majority. Not a particularly large majority but a clear majority nonetheless.

 

It is also clear that in the subsequent General Election the overwhelming majority of MPs returned were returned because their party manifestos were quite explicit in stating that they would enact the decision in the referendum, and the UK would leave the EU.

 

It is also clear that the Parliament produced by that General Election passed legislation to enact that referendum decision.

 

Now that Parliament, or a very slight majority of it's members, is deliberately frustrating attempts to enact that referendum decision, and prevent the legislation which they themselves passed to enable the UK to leave the EU from being carried out. That occurs for a number of reasons, party opportunism on the part of some (Labour and to a lesser extent the SNP), an internal party feud on the part of elements within the Tory party unable to accept defeat in the recent election contest, and perhaps enabled by the vanity of the Speaker! The common thread however is that the Parliament has reneged on of if not the major reasons it was elected. Having done so they are not prepared to "go to the country", to allow the people to express their opinions in an election. They (the Parliament) have created the need and demand for an election by their behaviour in the past few weeks. They claim that there is no mandate for leaving on the present terms available - well ask the people for that mandate through an election; they claim that the current Prime Minister is not a fit and proper person to hold the position - well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!

 

The most cynical actions, from a Parliament which claims to be representative of the people which elected it, is that they refuse to allow the people to make their decision, through a General Election.

 

You are right, history will not be kind. It will not be kind to this parliament, which will be for a long time be held up as an example of a failure of representative democracy. Very sad, considering Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy.

Alternatively, it’s a <deleted> deal that includes very real threats to workers rights, environmental protections and consumer rights, presented by a PM that nobody trusts and who is hiding the Government’s own impact assessment.

 

 

The wonder is so few MP’s rejected Johnson’s 

”Trust me gov, no need to lift The bonnet” deal.

  • Like 2
  • Confused 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, cyril sneer said:

Parliament is a disgrace. Everything would have gone smoothly if it wasn’t for them. 

And the trains would run on time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Oh Dear! How many times does it have to be said, please get a grip on the fact that representatives are not delegates, you even said it yourself - "Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy." MPs are not delegates, they are not servants required to carry out their work in a subservient obedient way to the wishes of some of their constituents (Often only getting 30% of the local vote). We elect them to represent us - we expect them to use their own judgement as to what is best for the country. The advisory referendum was idiotically simplistically worded, and as a result we have other posters here saying essentially "We just leave....simples". Duh it's not simple like that, as a primary school child should know.

 

"well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!"

Precisely - I agree 100% - ask the people again. However do it through a referendum that addresses the big question only - Brexit. A GE is supposed to be , and automatically will be, about many other issues as well, so it will ABSOLUTELY NOT be a sound guide to what the people feel about Brexit

For the Tory Tabloids it will be all about persuading the English working class that Corbyn is a commie, for example.  

 

So what you're saying is that in case Farage and his ilk manages to scrape up, let's say 100 seats, that could be a direct result of a political aspiration to reduce the VAT on frozen parsley?

Edited by Forethat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Oh Dear! How many times does it have to be said, please get a grip on the fact that representatives are not delegates, you even said it yourself - "Westminsters reputation to be the home of representative parliamentary democracy." MPs are not delegates, they are not servants required to carry out their work in a subservient obedient way to the wishes of some of their constituents (Often only getting 30% of the local vote). We elect them to represent us - we expect them to use their own judgement as to what is best for the country. The advisory referendum was idiotically simplistically worded, and as a result we have other posters here saying essentially "We just leave....simples". Duh it's not simple like that, as a primary school child should know.

 

"well ask the people through an election; some claim that the UK should not after all leave the EU - well ask the people (again)!"

Precisely - I agree 100% - ask the people again. However do it through a referendum that addresses the big question only - Brexit. A GE is supposed to be , and automatically will be, about many other issues as well, so it will ABSOLUTELY NOT be a sound guide to what the people feel about Brexit. 

For the Tory Tabloids it will be all about persuading the English working class that Corbyn is a commie, for example.  

 

Oh dear, how many times must it be pointed out that winning a seat on the basis of a particular policy commitment (in this case leaving the EU) and having legislated for that, to cynically frustrate that, is far from representing one's constituents.

 

An election will certainly be all about Brexit There are various possible options, varying from pulling the plug and b*gg*r*ng off within days of the election, leaving with the deal currently on offer, a wide variety of negotiating stances and simply revoking Article 50 and remaining as the status quo - if that is possible, which personally I doubt! There are 4 major parties in the UK: Conservative, Labour, SNP and Liberal, as well as many smaller ones. These options or combinations of them will be supported and debated and put forward as policy by various of them. The government which emerges from any election will at least have a mandate for its favoured stance(s). Of course the election will be all about Brexit, virtually nothing else of substance is being debated or considered at the moment, and just about every other policy which may be put forward is inevitably contingent upon what happens with Brexit.

 

A second referendum, if it is also to reflect all these options, will not produce a majority for anything. It will be open to different interpretations by all shades of opinion, from Mr Farage and his gang to The Liberal Democrats. It will not resolve anything.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Alternatively, it’s a <deleted> deal that includes very real threats to workers rights, environmental protections and consumer rights, presented by a PM that nobody trusts and who is hiding the Government’s own impact assessment.

All of which can, should and would, be exhaustively debated in front of the people in a General Election, rather than being frustrated by plots hatched behind  if not around the Speakers chair.

 

The "collateral damage" to use a ghastly American circumvention, being caused by the current Parliamentary antics, combined with the evident determination to deny an election until the alliance of opposition and Tory rebels has got it's way (which now looks like taking rather a long time), or even until the electoral climate is more favourable to both parties (which will quite possibly be an even longer time), will be a devastating, perhaps fatal blow to public confidence in our constitutional settlement.

Edited by JAG
  • Thanks 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

History will be extremely kind to him if he holds a general election and then takes us out with a clean break due to a huge majority.

 

Whats stopping him from having a clean break at the end of the month. Didnt he say UK is out deal or no deal?

Just leave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

Dictatorship by parliament, not Boris, but democracy has gone out of the window thanks to these jumped up children who are not heeding the wishes of the people who put them in power 😞

 

That would actually be an oligarchy, not a dictatorship.  If we are going to jump to hyperbole, let's at least get the lexicon correct. It is quite clear right now that UK parliament is in a state of extreme dysfunction, and the typical rules of fair play, namely calling an election to let the people sort out this mess, have been discarded. The requirement for impartiality of the speaker in particular has been devastated, and many people no longer trust even the courts to remain unbiased. These antics are going to have consequences far beyond just brexit, and it is now very unlikely that the British style of democracy will ever go back to what it was. It remains to be seen what it will develop into, but I can imagine history will remember this parliament as a textbook example of something to be avoided.

 

That said, name calling doesn't help. It is clearly in vogue on this forum by both sides, but it doesn't help. The UK is still a democracy, even if incredibly dysfunctional at the moment. Remember that when this current issue resolves itself, the people you are currently denigrating are going to be your neighbours. It would be best to look for shared values in order to form a canon for moving forward, rather than just intensifying the acrimony.

 

This has been a brief interlude. Both sides can now go back to biting and flinging their feces.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...