Putin, Erdogan strike deal to remove Kurdish YPG from Syria border

[Mavideol]

7 hours ago, JamesBlond said:

Good result.

 

It's a far-flung corner of Syria - Assad didn't win the civil war outright so this territory is arguably up for grabs. I doubt anyone could say who it rightly belongs to. As it's volatile, I say let it go to whoever can best keep the peace.

 

No problem with Russia's involvement - they are Turkey's neighbour - far more reasonable for them to be there than the US, just as we wouldn't expect Russia to get involved in Central America.

but they (Russia) are in Central America.....  Cuba, Venezuela.... it's a start

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, JamesBlond said:

Sure, that's the general intention of borders, but my point was that the 'borders' in this region were fairly arbitrarily drawn by a committee at one point in history. Quite often the line is simply a fence (or not even that) across a piece of land that looks identically barren on either side.

And clearly the borders in this region have done nothing to keep the ethnic populations apart, resulting in rising tensions. When that happens, conflict is inevitable to sort everything out. The reality is that you either have to keep the parties apart by proper borders (which I think is what Turkey is trying to achieve) or let them mingle and fight it out periodically because competition for resources - water and grazing land - (and for ethnic pride) is intense in this environment. Take your pick.

 

I'm not sure what it is you're actually proposing, unless it is avoid anyone having to move - but that is bleeding-heartist and will solve nothing.

 

If someone tried to displace me I would first ask myself who has the greater moral or historical right to be there, and if it wasn't me, I would move.

 

 

you mean just like the 9 dash lines China claim in South China Sea

[jany123]

28 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

In this case though I think they were drawn with a marker pen.

In this case it’s not about borders. You might want it to be about borders to somehow diminish the act of betrayal of an ally and partner, but it’s not.... it’s about betrayal, pure and simple.

 

US partners were unilaterally betrayed by the trump. That’s the issue... sacrificing a partner for no sane reason. The trump could have discussed this with NATO partners. NATO could have supplied alternatives. The UN could have installed peacekeepers. That this went down the way it did is despicable.... supporting it is despicable, given alternatives were not discussed.

 

This type of withdrawal should have been a last resort, and as such, it could have been deemed understandable and therefore acceptable, but as it stands... demonstrable proof that the trump is unfit to lead a world power.

 

Realpolitiks you call it... in what world other than the trumps, has betrayal of friends become normal? History certainly does not see betrayals as normal... that you would try to suggest it’s realpolitik is laughable... that anyone other than the trumps supporters would not be shocked by the trumps actions is highly unlikely. In fact I think it’s pretty safe to say that world news has confirmed that the trumps actions were shocking.

 

The only reason that folk would not be shocked is because the trump is normalizing shocking behavior.

 

regards your atlas... I’m assuming your referencing Yugoslavia regards new countries in Europe... Yugoslavia was partitioned, beyond that no external borders were significantly changed, and the same holds true for the breakup of the USSR, within its previous borders. 

 

Similarly, by and large, the same can be said about the Middle East and Asia as colonial powers withdrew.... Ceylon is still within its borders, with a different name, as is Burma.... so please, do point to something extraordinary... something that is not easily recognizable from 1950 or there about, till now.

[Credo]

3 hours ago, Mavideol said:

but they (Russia) are in Central America.....  Cuba, Venezuela.... it's a start

I suspect they are in the White House as well.

 

I also suspect that this is going to result in greater instability in the region.   The Kurds are being displaced from their traditional homeland and the area is being Arabized.   The Iranians are close allies of Assad.   ISIS will reemerge.

 

[JamesBlond]

4 hours ago, jany123 said:

regards your atlas... I’m assuming your referencing Yugoslavia regards new countries in Europe... Yugoslavia was partitioned, beyond that no external borders were significantly changed, and the same holds true for the breakup of the USSR, within its previous borders. 

 

Similarly, by and large, the same can be said about the Middle East and Asia as colonial powers withdrew.... Ceylon is still within its borders, with a different name, as is Burma.... so please, do point to something extraordinary... something that is not easily recognizable from 1950 or there about, till now.

Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Berlin, Hong Kong, South Sudan, Eritrea, Somaliland, Western Sahara, Ifni, Zanzibar...

Something more extraordinary? Israel, Tibet, Kashmir, Crimea...?

 

Not sure why I'm playing this game. My only point is that the world is in a state of flux and there are more changes to come - no matter how much you want everyone to suddenly stand still forever like musical chairs in order to calm your nerves. Certain regions have yet to get themselves sorted out and that is what is happening in the middle east. Nobody wants an apocalypse, so controlled change is necessary.

 

Partisan anti-Trump point-scoring is irrelevant. The Kurds were allies in the war against ISIS, not in their historical feud with NATO-member Turkey. It's never the case that every enemy of my friend should also be my enemy. The west has always sympathised with the Kurds, but perhaps people are not aware of just much terrorism they have perpetrated in Turkey. What is clear is that absolutely nobody in the west (except me maybe) is willing to view this from the Turkish perspective.

 

 

[jany123]

8 hours ago, JamesBlond said:

The atlas of the world I grew up with bears little resemblance to today's atlas.

 

32 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Berlin, Hong Kong, South Sudan, Eritrea, Somaliland, Western Sahara, Ifni, Zanzibar...

Something more extraordinary? Israel, Tibet, Kashmir, Crimea...?

So which of these countries or regions could you find In an atlas when you went to school, but not now? Sure, lines and names have changed here and there, but claiming it bears no resemblance is ridiculous

 

34 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Nobody wants an apocalypse, so controlled change is necessary.

I agree 100%... developed nations need to do whatever is possible to assist developing nations (and themselves... thinking spheres of influence and sovereign security), thru change.

 

However... Deserting a friend, disregarding established alliances and giving nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia, for example, a la the trump, is not what I would describe as “controlled”... more the opposite I fear, as he is sowing chaos within the mechanisms established to impart the controls that you agree are needed

 

40 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

What is clear is that absolutely nobody in the west (except me maybe) is willing to view this from the Turkish perspective.

Somewhat patronizing... and very dubious. Yes, Turkey has the right to defend themselves from terrorist groups, but this need not be done by blowing the Kurds to kingdom come. (Should the west have stood by and let the fledgling Israel, back when its leaders were considered terrorist, be destroyed, for example) They (Kurds) too have rights and have been dispossessed. They are owed something, by western powers in particular, given that the western powers have failed them. There predicament was not of their making.

 

responsible leadership could result in an intervention which could see all parties protected.... oh look, in steps the enemy, Russia, to provide what is hopefully a workable solution, or at least a short term fix, while something more permanent is worked out, because the trump is incapable of doing so. Worse, incapable of trying, it seems.

 

But I digress.... the point is that the trump betrayed an allied people, abandoning them to a highly predicable fate, when he need not have. 

 

 

[Credo]

4 hours ago, JamesBlond said:

Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Berlin, Hong Kong, South Sudan, Eritrea, Somaliland, Western Sahara, Ifni, Zanzibar...

Something more extraordinary? Israel, Tibet, Kashmir, Crimea...?

 

Not sure why I'm playing this game. My only point is that the world is in a state of flux and there are more changes to come - no matter how much you want everyone to suddenly stand still forever like musical chairs in order to calm your nerves. Certain regions have yet to get themselves sorted out and that is what is happening in the middle east. Nobody wants an apocalypse, so controlled change is necessary.

 

Partisan anti-Trump point-scoring is irrelevant. The Kurds were allies in the war against ISIS, not in their historical feud with NATO-member Turkey. It's never the case that every enemy of my friend should also be my enemy. The west has always sympathised with the Kurds, but perhaps people are not aware of just much terrorism they have perpetrated in Turkey. What is clear is that absolutely nobody in the west (except me maybe) is willing to view this from the Turkish perspective.

 

 

You have made some broad generalizations about the Kurds, which are not true.   Even in Turkey, it is only a small group that is responsible for terrorist activities, not all Kurds and certainly not Kurds from neighboring countries.   

Erdogan and the Turkish military, however, have flattened villages and keep the Kurds under tight military control.   The clearing out a 'zone' is little more than ethnic cleansing and the Arabization of the Kurdish homeland.   

 

You might want to check your facts about the Kurds, their homeland and the actions of the Turkish military against innocent women and children.   

 

If you think, as Trump said, "the Kurds are no angels", then the Turkish military is only a few steps behind what Saddam did to the Kurds.   

 

We have abandoned a long-time ally in the region and one of the few groups that had the ability to form a reasonable, democratic gov't in the area.   For an example look at Northern Iraq, which is now a Kurdish autonomous area.