Mandatory health insurance for retirees falls flat as ‘Non-Imm O’ visa loophole exposed

[FarFlungFalang]

5 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

This insurance <deleted> I believe was done to get you off the "O-A" visa and get you on the Non-Imm "O" where your money MUST be in a Thai bank account which gives the Thai banks and the Thai government control of your money.

Money in the bank can be avoided by doing border runs so maybe they are trying to drum up business for the borders and the transport sector.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

During the weeks this debacle has been playing out, I think a lot of folks here clearly understood that switching from an O-A to a straight O visa, and then renewing the O or switching to an annual marriage or retirement based extension of stay was probably a way to avoid the insurance requirement.  Assuming you could meet the financial quals for the two extensions of stay.

 

However, at least to me, the new part here from Phuket Immigation, at least for today (who knows about tomorrow) is that they seemingly are willing to allow a person to convert from an O-A visa to an O visa IN COUNTRY right there at Immigration, without having to go thru all the hassle of leaving the country and applying for an O back home or some nearby SE Asian Thai consulate.

 

But either way, I wouldn't get too attached the idea at this point, as I'm guessing the officialdom is not done messing with this topic, and there likely will be more chips to fall in the future one way or the other.

 

 

 

[Pattaya46]

7 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

believe was done to get you off the "O-A" visa and get you on the Non-Imm "O" where your money MUST be in a Thai bank account which gives the Thai banks and the Thai government control of your money.

Many people like you insisting all the time that we MUST have money in a Thai bank when on Retirement Extension, but it's just false... That's just concerns people using 1 of the 4 available options to get this extension. Probably not so many people in fact with the 800/400k in the bank option. (but I don't have any data about that...)

[lkv]

26 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

The article quotes Phuket Immigration saying that you can change the category of the visa once in Thailand

Application for Change of Visa - TM86

Application for Visa - TM87

 

TM86 currently used for TR to Non B/O

TM87 currently used for visa exempt to Non B/O (since you don't have a visa, you apply for a visa within Thailand -yes!). 

 

If they can change TR to Non B/O (i.e change visa type = เปลี่ยนประเภทวีซ่า ), I don't see why they can't change any visa type to another. Perhaps due to lack of guidelines.

[mike787]

3 hours ago, zhounan said:

hahah lol

Thailand begs pensioners to come and spend the last savings here. 

"please, please, don't leave.????"

 

I love It, the squeeze Is on them now as they see they need us more than we need them...But I’m sure they will change things before the ink dries on this...it never ends here...

[Russell17au]

3 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Many people like you insisting all the time that we MUST have money in a Thai bank when on Retirement Extension, but it's just false... That's just concerns people using 1 of the 4 available options to get this extension. Probably not so many people in fact with the 800/400k in the bank option. (but I don't have any data about that...)

Do not cut what I say in my post. If you could read you would read that I said that there was no loop hole but it was a plan by the government to get those on "O-A" visas with their money in their home country banks to change to the Non-Imm "O" visa where they a required to have their money in a Thai bank which then gives both the Thai banks and the Thai government control and use of your money. You have distorted what I posted by only using part of my post.

[madmen]

8 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Many people like you insisting all the time that we MUST have money in a Thai bank when on Retirement Extension, but it's just false... That's just concerns people using 1 of the 4 available options to get this extension. Probably not so many people in fact with the 800/400k in the bank option. (but I don't have any data about that...)

I dont know any country where the pension = 65k baht using the income method. Australia and the Uk are currently half that amount so there would be only a tiny % on income method. The rest are all 800k or disappeared into the bowels of cambodia already

[soalbundy]

3 hours ago, fishtank said:

There are no flies on him!

but you see where they have been

[elviajero]

44 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

The article quotes Phuket Immigration saying that you can change the category of the visa once in Thailand.

Regardless of this officers opinion, you can't; unless it was done by the MFA, and they won't do it without good reason.

 

You can only change the basis that an extension is granted. A retirement extension can be granted with a O or O-A entry visa; therefore, there is nothing to change.

 

44 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

If they do insist on mandatory health insurance on top of the required money in the bank would make it very difficult for many retirees that don't do border runs. 

The requirements around retirement extensions have always been used to control numbers. And IMO this is another move in that direction.

[Pattaya46]

37 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Do not cut what I say in my post. If you could read you would read that I said that there was no loop hole but it was a plan by the government to get those on "O-A" visas with their money in their home country banks to change to the Non-Imm "O" visa where they a required to have their money in a Thai bank which then gives both the Thai banks and the Thai government control and use of your money. You have distorted what I posted by only using part of my post.

I didn't distort anything. What you wrote again (quoted just above) is false.

"to change to the Non-Imm "O" visa where they a required to have their money in a Thai bank"

No such requirement.

[Felt 35]

3 hours ago, Mango Bob said:

Why can't be Immigrations Chiefs read their own Police Report.  What the hell is the matter with these people.

????Read and understand.....nuf said

[4675636b596f75]

I came here over 3 years ago on an O-A visa.  Thus far I have had two 1 year extensions.  I am told, that I am not here on an OA anymore, I am permitted to stay due to the extension.  

 

I'm here, so now what?

[LivinLOS]

9 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

I came here over 3 years ago on an O-A visa.  Thus far I have had two 1 year extensions.  I am told, that I am not here on an OA anymore, I am permitted to stay due to the extension.  

 

I'm here, so now what?

Your someone that is on extensions of a permission of stay that originally came from an OA. It is possible that some offices will request insurance on your next extension. If that comes to pass or not should become obvious over the next month. 

 

 

 

 

[lkv]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Regardless of this officers opinion, you can't; unless it was done by the MFA, and they won't do it without good reason.

 

You can only change the basis that an extension is granted.

Not exactly. You can change a visa type via TM86 and you can apply for a visa within Thailand if you don't have one, with TM87. And that is done at local Immigration.

 

So when one arrives visa exempt, local Immigration issues a visa (non O or non B), upon applying with TM87.

 

Point being, local Immigration has the authority to change the visa type or issue a visa (of any class).

 

I just don't think they have guidelines regarding other classes of visas (to be issued within Thailand or changing the visa type). But the forms are there. TM86 and TM87.

[trainman34014]

4 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Then why is there insurance for a Non-O-A either? Both have the same financial requirements...

 

Has this all been (yet another) exercise in nonsense? Like the nosy information form? Or, is this even more wrong information?

 

If Thailand wants to be taken seriously, then it needs to be serious; at the moment, it seems to be a third-world, banana republic spouting nonsense entity.

 

It is not a good look...

 

 

Not a good look....but its normal look !

[elviajero]

3 minutes ago, lkv said:

Not exactly. You can change a visa type via TM86 and you can apply for a visa within Thailand if you don't have one, with TM87.

 

So when one arrives visa exempt, they issue a visa (non O or non B) in Thailand, with TM87.

 

I just don't think they have guidelines regarding other classes of visas (to be issued within Thailand or changing the visa type). But the forms are there. TM86 and TM87.

Your understanding is wrong.

 

Both forms are to apply for a Non Immigrant Visa for someone entering with another type of visa. A Non O-A visa holder already has a Non Immigrant Visa; therefore, they can’t apply for one or change the category of the visa they hold.

 

[david555]

And now they have an official excuse to implement it on "o" extension's too ...wait and see ….

OR...of course they could use the " grandfathering rule" for the present existing ret.ext "O" by date ,..simple to avoid...if they wished 

[lkv]

55 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Your understanding is wrong.

I strongly assure you, that yours is wrong.

 

If you look at the headers of the files i attached, you will clearly see: 

 

Application for Change of Visa (TM86)

Application for Visa (TM87)

 

Both applied for at the Immigration Bureau and addressed to the Immigration Officer

 

Again, just to clarify it better, a person entering visa exempt has no visa, therefore is issued a visa first at local Immigration, then the permission of stay derived from that visa gets extended (after 90 days). This is the current procedure for people entering visa exempt and ending up with a non O/B and an extension of stay locally, without visiting an overseas Consulate.

 

Had they not been issued with a non O/B visa, they could have only extended their permission of stay for 30 days only. However, since they were issued locally with a visa (class non O or non B), the law allows an extension of the initial permission of stay (90 days) for another 12 months, as per the corresponding regulations, according to the visa class.

 

Get 3 months permission of stay first here at local Immigration (based on the visa issued by local Immigration), then extend the permission of stay for a further 12 months.

 

I hope it's more clear. ???? 

 

Furthermore, on 

 

http://www.consular.go.th/main/th/services/1287/19765-ประเภทและหลักเกณฑ์เกี่ยวกับการตรวจลงตราประเภทต่าง.html

 

It states at point 7:

 

คนต่างด้าวที่ประสงค์จะขยายระยะเวลาพำนักในประเทศไทยหรือเปลี่ยนแปลงประเภทวีซ่า  ต้องยื่นคำร้อง ณ สำนักงานตรวจคนเข้าเมือง ศูนย์ราชการฯ ถนนแจ้งวัฒนะ กรุงเทพฯ โทร. 02-141-9889 เว็บไซต์ http://www.immigration.go.th/   การพิจารณาอนุมัติขึ้นอยู่กับดุลพินิจของเจ้าพนักงานตรวจคนเข้าเมือง

 

Aliens wishing to extend their stay in Thailand or change visa types Must submit an application at the Immigration Bureau, Government Center, Chaeng Watthana Road, Bangkok Tel. 02-141-9889 Website  http://www.immigration.go.th/    Approval is up to the discretion of the immigration officer.

 

And lastly, here are the guidelines (in Thai), for visa exempt and TR to non B.

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/sv_bwork

 

tm86.pdf tm87.pdf

[fittobethaied]

So, if I'm understanding all this correctly, one who came to Thailand on a Non-Immigrant O-A and has extended their 12 month stay for several years on the basis of retirement, that person can apply for a change of visa to Non-Immigrant O at the time of their extension renewal and be granted a 90 day permission to stay. Somewhere around 60 days into that new permission to stay one can go back to their local immigration office and convert that to a 12 month extension of stay based on retirement or marriage. If that be the case does the applicant have to now provide a police clearance and a medical certificate in addition to meeting the financial requirements just as he did when he applied for the Non-Immigrant O-A in his home country? 

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

That's just concerns people using 1 of the 4 available options to get this extension.

Ret Ext 101 question... what are the other 3 available options?

[MartinKal]

5 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

I don't understand. The foreigner must be in Thailand to change his status, and the requirement for Insurance is to be checked when entering the country, so nothing to win by changing the status... not? 

 

And BTW, changing your visa status is easier to say than to do. You must qualify for it... and some of those who chose O-A do it precisely because they don't qualify for Non-O extensions.

 

Edit: Then in fact, Phuket Immigration is saying that those on Non-O-A will need Insurance for their yearly extension... the opposite of what ThaiVisa is saying from the beginning... 

Exactly right. The journalist needs to arrange and validate his facts before going into print.

Here in this article it is stated that the insurance is required for extensions from an O-A visa. Yet up until now we had been told insurance is required only for a visa application.

(Just to be clear, the applicant applies for a one-year Visa. At the end of this petiod - well, at any time during the 12 month visa - the applicant applies for an extension.)

Correct me if I've got it wrong.

[MartinKal]

33 minutes ago, fittobethaied said:

So, if I'm understanding all this correctly, one who came to Thailand on a Non-Immigrant O-A and has extended their 12 month stay for several years on the basis of retirement, that person can apply for a change of visa to Non-Immigrant O at the time of their extension renewal and be granted a 90 day permission to stay. Somewhere around 60 days into that new permission to stay one can go back to their local immigration office and convert that to a 12 month extension of stay based on retirement or marriage. If that be the case does the applicant have to now provide a police clearance and a medical certificate in addition to meeting the financial requirements just as he did when he applied for the Non-Immigrant O-A in his home country? 

We dont know. The rule change has been implemented without testing.

[Pattaya46]

43 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Ret Ext 101 question... what are the other 3 available options?

Discussed many many times already on this forum, but the 4 options are :

- proof of 65kB/month with Embassy Letter

- proof of 65kB/month with Bank Letter proving transfers

- proof of 800/400kB in Thai Bank   (or combo method when still accepted)

- visa agent...

(and yes the last one must not be 100% legal, but now so popular that need to be listed)

[MartinKal]

So insurance is required for an extension of stay from an O-A visa. Extension of stay, not visa application. O-A visa, not O or OX.

 

I should think my understanding is wrong. Please correct.

 

 "O" 
To visit family or friends in Thailand, voluntary job, retirement, medical treatment, to attend judicial process, to work as diplomat's housekeeper 

"O-A" 
For applicants aged 50 and over who wish to stay in Thailand for an extended period without the intention of working. 

"O-X"
For applicants aged 50 and over who wish to stay in Thailand for an extended period without the intention of working, and who are nationals of of (1) Japan (2) Australia (3) Denmark (4) Finland (5) France (6) Germany (7) Italy (8) Netherlands (9) Norway (10) Sweden (11) Switzerland (12) United Kingdom (13) Canada (14) United States of America.

[madmen]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

But either way, I wouldn't get too attached the idea at this point, as I'm guessing the officialdom is not done messing with this topic, and there likely will be more chips to fall in the future one way or the other.

based on what? nothing has changed since the very first announcement. The only changes made are by Scaremongers throwing out a zillion what if scenarios and still continue to do so

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, madmen said:

nothing has changed since the very first announcement.

 

That's right. Other than clearly applying to new issued O-As, no one at the Embassies/Consulates of any of the various Immigration offices has any clear and consistent explanation of just who is and isn't going to be covered by this and under what cirumstances.

 

And that fact was reinforced by the reports re the various Immigration Offices mentioned in the OP article here. Confusion reigns, and continues to do so.

 

[lkv]

1 hour ago, fittobethaied said:

So, if I'm understanding all this correctly, one who came to Thailand on a Non-Immigrant O-A and has extended their 12 month stay for several years on the basis of retirement, that person can apply for a change of visa to Non-Immigrant O at the time of their extension renewal and be granted a 90 day permission to stay.

In theory yes, in practice I don't feel that any office would be willing to do such a conversion.

 

Even today, the number of places that allow VE to Non O or TR to non O is limited. Most local offices also send applicants out of Thailand anyways to apply for a non O, or whenever they want to change the visa type.

 

[madmen]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's right. Other than clearly applying to new issued O-As, no one at the Embassies/Consulates of any of the various Immigration offices has any clear and consistent explanation of just who is and isn't going to be covered by this and under what cirumstances.

 

And that fact was reinforced by the reports re the various Immigration Offices mentioned in the OP article here. Confusion reigns, and continues to do so.

 

 What do you find confusing about it? Has to be the easiest new immigration policy I have seen

problem is Thai Visa where "newbie" trolls pepper the threads with wild stories and the scare mungers push it to 20 pages long

 

NOTHINg has changed unless you can provide a link to the contrary then I will happily admit Im wrong...link please?

[Tounge Thaied]

5 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And yet the primary question thats being addressed here is.. How will immigration treat extensions of stay, of OA visa generated entries. This isnt about obtaining the initial visas outside of Thailand in the OP at all !! 

 

And yes.. Both O and OA generated permissions of stay, have the same requirements for incountry extension, with the one exception of this insurance. 

An extension of stay is based upon the original VISA. An extension of stay, in and of itself is not a VISA. So... currently the only VISAs and their respective extensions, that require health coverage are the O-A and O-X VISAs. If your extension of stay is based upon any Non-Immigrant "O" category, currently no health insurance requirement. 

[Tounge Thaied]

23 minutes ago, MartinKal said:

So insurance is required for an extension of stay from an O-A visa. Extension of stay, not visa application. O-A visa, not O or OX.

 

I should think my understanding is wrong. Please correct.

 

 "O" 
To visit family or friends in Thailand, voluntary job, retirement, medical treatment, to attend judicial process, to work as diplomat's housekeeper 

"O-A" 
For applicants aged 50 and over who wish to stay in Thailand for an extended period without the intention of working. 

"O-X"
For applicants aged 50 and over who wish to stay in Thailand for an extended period without the intention of working, and who are nationals of of (1) Japan (2) Australia (3) Denmark (4) Finland (5) France (6) Germany (7) Italy (8) Netherlands (9) Norway (10) Sweden (11) Switzerland (12) United Kingdom (13) Canada (14) United States of America.

Currently now, applications and extension of the Non-Immigrant O-A and O-X VISAs require health insurance. The Non-Immigrant "O" applications and extensions currently do not require health insurance.