Mandatory health insurance for retirees falls flat as ‘Non-Imm O’ visa loophole exposed

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Any extension is based on the category of visa used to enter the country, and up to now O and O-A visa retirement extension application requirements were exactly the same. Since mandatory insurance was first announced I have written that, IMO, they will not impose the insurance requirement on existing O visa holders because it would affect thousands of long term retirees. That opinion hasn’t changed; but it is becoming clear to me that the long term play will be to stop issuing O entry visas to retirees and only issue O-A’s. That way future stays for retirees will have to start with insurance and maintaining that insurance will be a condition throughout their stay.

I have never heard of someone going to Immigration with an O-A and being able to change the original entry Visa to a different class ( O-A to O; O-B etc ).  HOwever, one can go out of the country with an O-A  and apply for a new Visa  (marriage, work) and re- enter with an O or B.

 

I really don't see where there is a so called loop hole.   The O-X has been around fior awhile and  is a long stay retirement Visa  with the insurance requirement: the O-a is another long stay retirement Visa= now with insurance.

 

It  is obvious to me that the target group are retirees.  Those married to a Thai do not enter on any type of Visa that allows a one year stamp at the entry point.  One gets 90 days 

 

In the US if one is simply retired- and request an O Visa- it will be denied (unless married to a Thai)  That leaves either O-A or O-X  although one can get a tourist Visa and convert (for now).  There are very few Thai Embasies/Consulates around the World that willissue an OVisa for the basis of retirment.

 

IMO your assessment of the situation is spot on.

[Suradit69]

21 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

 

And BTW, changing your visa status is easier to say than to do. You must qualify for it... and some of those who chose O-A do it precisely because they don't qualify for Non-O extensions.

The extension of stay based on retirement is not a non Imm O extension it's an extension of your permission to stay and the process is exactly the same for those who started out with a non Imm O or non Imm O-A visa entry. The non Imm O-A visa is a type of non Imm O visa. 

 

There is no  non Imm O-A extension versus a non Imm O extension. There is an extension of stay based on retirement, the requirements for which are the same for those who first entered using either visa type. The problem regarding insurance may or may not arise depending on the visa entry one had BEFORE one gets the extension. Although the check for insurance is likely to be on the embassy that issues the visa, not immigrations.

 

21 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

 

Edit: Then in fact, Phuket Immigration is saying that those on Non-O-A will need Insurance for their yearly extension... the opposite of what ThaiVisa is saying from the beginning

You're still confusing being here on a non Imm O-A visa entry/permission to stay and being here on an extension of stay based on retirement.

 

Thai Visa isn't saying anything. The people who make all sorts of claims about many topics  are individuals who are as confused as you, most of whom are not speaking on behalf of TV. You can find people saying 101 different things on every subject.

 

And what some officer in Phuket says is still open to a variety of interpretations by confused or informed people or "clarification " higher up the chain of command.

 

Remember the official proclamations of Big Joke and where he ended up.

[oslooskar]

I am here on an O-A visa and was told by an immigration officer last week when I did my 90-day report that I would need proof of health insurance coverage when I applied for my annual visa extension in February. I was also told that my Kaiser Plan was unacceptable. However, the Royal Thai Embassy's website doesn't really specify that I have to have insurance from those companies they list. (See Below)

 

Effective from 31 October 2019 , the applicant must be medically insured for the entire period of stay in Thailand with the following coverage:

– Outpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than 40,000 THB, and

– Inpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than  400,000 THB

The applicants must submit the following:

8.1. Health insurance policy document issued by a Thai or foreign insurance company, stating that the applicant is medically insured for the period and with coverage as mentioned above:

(a) In case of a foreign insurance company, the applicant must submit the original insurance policy document with 2 copies;

(b) In case of a Thai insurance company, the applicant must submit 2 copies of the insurance policy document or, if available, the original insurance policy document with 2 copies. A list of Thai insurance companies participating in the scheme can be found here: http://longstay.tgia.org

8.2. Foreign Insurance Certificate as stipulated by the Office of Insurance Commission and Health Insurance of Thailand, which must be completed, signed and stamped by the insurance company. The form can be downloaded here: http://longstay.tgia.org

[rwill]

No matter what Phuket immigration doesn't speak for the whole country. 

[Genericnic]

13 minutes ago, oslooskar said:

I am here on an O-A visa and was told by an immigration officer last week when I did my 90-day report that I would need proof of health insurance coverage when I applied for my annual visa extension in February. I was also told that my Kaiser Plan was unacceptable. However, the Royal Thai Embassy's website doesn't really specify that I have to have insurance from those companies they list. (See Below)

 

Effective from 31 October 2019 , the applicant must be medically insured for the entire period of stay in Thailand with the following coverage:

– Outpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than 40,000 THB, and

– Inpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than  400,000 THB

The applicants must submit the following:

8.1. Health insurance policy document issued by a Thai or foreign insurance company, stating that the applicant is medically insured for the period and with coverage as mentioned above:

(a) In case of a foreign insurance company, the applicant must submit the original insurance policy document with 2 copies;

(b) In case of a Thai insurance company, the applicant must submit 2 copies of the insurance policy document or, if available, the original insurance policy document with 2 copies. A list of Thai insurance companies participating in the scheme can be found here: http://longstay.tgia.org

8.2. Foreign Insurance Certificate as stipulated by the Office of Insurance Commission and Health Insurance of Thailand, which must be completed, signed and stamped by the insurance company. The form can be downloaded here: http://longstay.tgia.org

To use your Kaiser Plan (or any non-Thai plan) you have to get the Foreign Insurance Certificate (8.2). Due to the requirements of what is on the certificate, I would say your chances of getting it signed are close to zero. I would have the same problem with my US based plan. In effect, everyone will be stuck using the overpriced Thai coverage.

 

David

 

[Skallywag]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

compulsory insurance is coming for all long term stayers regardless of original visa or extension type as sure as God made little green apples.

And the sun will supernova, the sky will grow dark, and the antichrist will appear.  

Any other clairvoyant predictions you could share with us? 

The simple solution if this occurs, engage a Visa agent if you prefer not to participate

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

What a mess that not even the local immigration bosses seem to know what it exactly means.

 

Well what does anyone expect? This is Thailand. ????

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Not really. The 4th option (agent) also allows to keep fund overseas. And the 3rd option (transfer 65k/month) is money that you would have to send to you anyway for your monthly outgoings, so not  really "money in the bank".

I purposely avoided including the 4th option since agents can be a very emotive subject and they aren't referenced in any police orders anyway. But I agree that for the greater part, it avoids the local-bank-account-with-evidence-of-money-from-overseas malarkey

 

The 3rd option STILL requires that the money ULTIMATELY be in a Thai bank account with the proof that it came from overseas. If that latter, key coding isn't apparent, then that's a(nother) Ret Ext fail.

 

As said, really nothing new under the sun... for the moment anyway.

[FarFlungFalang]

Phew!After reading all these posts the situation seems to be as clear as mud.

[AAArdvark]

12 hours ago, pagallim said:

You need to seriously get a grip.   An OA visa is issued external to Thailand with a well defined qualification criteria.   Now that visa requires that applicants have health insurance to a certain level because the applicant may not have 400,000 baht in the bank in Thailand.   This visa has financial requirements, proof of which may be required on application.

 

The typical retiree here has an O visa, and an extension based on retirement.   We all know what the qualifications for that are.   I think everyone affected by now understands that if going the money in the bank route, there has to be a minimum of 400,000 baht in your account for the whole year.

 

Seriously folks, what is there not to understand?

 

 

Once the O-A holder applies for an actual extension (not the 1st year exit and re-enter extension) they are required to have the same money in a Thai bank as anyone else. 

[Isaanbiker]

21 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

The Phuket immigration chief deserves a medal for this, though more likely he may get posted to an inactive position for defying orders. .... I like this man!

He should get Pinocchio's position. 

[chrisinth]

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

Presumably now when you apply for a 1 year extension the IO will check the category of visa used to enter the country and if it’s a O-A they will also check insurance is in place.

 

What I wrote above is that it’s not possible to change the category of visa at immigration to an O from an O-A before applying for the extension.

Ah, OK, I see where you are coming from. Thanks for the clarification.

[Isaanbiker]

23 minutes ago, rwill said:

No matter what Phuket immigration doesn't speak for the whole country. 

And all the offices seem to have different regulations.

 

  In theory, you might need an insurance in xxxx, but you don't need it in yyy?

 

    Makes sense.

[SteveK]

Whilst applying for my first non-O extension, I overheard a conversation between an IO and an Australian gentleman doing the same. She very clearly told him that next year he WILL need insurance to renew the extension so it will be applying to existing extension holders, at least at the Ubon office.

 

Surely it should be money in the bank OR insurance?

[AAArdvark]

2 hours ago, Mango Bob said:

I have  life insurance.  Better than this <deleted> that is being offered here and I pay nothing for it except a deductible of $150.  I pay 25% of the bill and if I pay $3,000 in a year everything after that is at no cost to me.  Now beat that or shut up.

 

"Life insurance"?  Do you care to share your age group and where you got this insurance?

[carbon007]

2 minutes ago, SteveK said:

Whilst applying for my first non-O extension, I overheard a conversation between an IO and an Australian gentleman doing the same. She very clearly told him that next year he WILL need insurance to renew the extension so it will be applying to existing extension holders, at least at the Ubon office.

And  again: Did the gentleman gently ask: 'What if I cannot get an insurance because of age or pre-existing conditions'?

[SteveK]

6 minutes ago, carbon007 said:

And  again: Did the gentleman gently ask: 'What if I cannot get an insurance because of age or pre-existing conditions'?

I spoke with him briefly and he seemed aghast at the paperwork requirements, I think he had visited the office a few times before getting everything they wanted. It took them 7 hours to do my extension, I think his experience was even worse.

 

Seeing as this is Thailand, if you can't get the insurance I guess it will tough luck - buy an Elite visa or go home. But I suspect that's the point of it.

[pookondee]

17 hours ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

I came here over 3 years ago on an O-A visa.  Thus far I have had two 1 year extensions.  I am told, that I am not here on an OA anymore, I am permitted to stay due to the extension.  

 

I'm here, so now what?

Now im confused.

Ive been reading here recently that you can only get 2 years out of an

O-A from my country??

[zaZa9]

19 hours ago, Russell17au said:

There is no loop hole at all. The facts are that with an "O-A" visa you only had to show that you had the money and that money could be in any account in any country. This insurance <deleted> I believe was done to get you off the "O-A" visa and get you on the Non-Imm "O" where your money MUST be in a Thai bank account which gives the Thai banks and the Thai government control of your money. They had no control or use of your money whilst you are on the "O-A" visa.

But thats only for the first 2 years - after that , any Extension requires 800/400 in a Thai bank.

[Sonyboy]

22 hours ago, WhatupThailand said:

Rule #1- if the rule is too easy to understand, Change it.

 

Rule #2- All rules must have at least 3 different meanings, each of which can be proved valid.

 

Rule #3- All rules are subject to the Interpretation of the Officer, regardless of his state of mind.

 

All true,especially the last part,written at the bottom  of most immigration 'laws' and 'Rules' for Visa applications is ,'The immigration officer for each of Thailand's immigration Provence's will decide and do as s/he see fit for all actions',or similar words with the same meaning.

[Peter Denis]

12 minutes ago, zaZa9 said:

But thats only for the first 2 years - after that , any Extension requires 800/400 in a Thai bank.

You can simply re-apply for a new Non Imm OA Visa in your home-country at the end of the 2nd year.  Doing so, you avoid having to park 400K/800K in a Thai bank-account or prove monthly income transfers of +65.000 THB.

Which means that if something happens during those 2 years that there is no money on a thai bank-account (unless you did that voluntarily).  With the new health-insurance requirement for Non Imm OA Visa applications that loophole has now been filled.

[FarFlungFalang]

26 minutes ago, SteveK said:

I spoke with him briefly and he seemed aghast at the paperwork requirements, I think he had visited the office a few times before getting everything they wanted. It took them 7 hours to do my extension, I think his experience was even worse.

 

Seeing as this is Thailand, if you can't get the insurance I guess it will tough luck - buy an Elite visa or go home. But I suspect that's the point of it.

Might have been quicker to zip up to Chong Mek and do a border crossing which at this stage avoids the insurance requirement along with money in the bank.I went to Mukdahan yesterday and was REFUSED ENTRY and made me cross to Loas for a stamp.????????

[pookondee]

43 minutes ago, SteveK said:

Whilst applying for my first non-O extension, I overheard a conversation between an IO and an Australian gentleman doing the same. She very clearly told him that next year he WILL need insurance to renew the extension so it will be applying to existing extension holders, at least at the Ubon office.

 

Surely it should be money in the bank OR insurance?

So they are applying their own rules?

 

Sounds like many will have to wait see what rules their local IMMs office want to make up, then move provinces if needs be.

[DogNo1]

When a person's OA visa is about to expire and he/she applies for a one-year extension of stay in-county, what are the financial requirements?  If the same as for an extension based on retirement or marriage, would not the basis for the extension then revert to be Non-O?

[Percy P]

22 hours ago, smedly said:

everybody knows that this insurance debacle is nothing but a huge scam and money grab

 

Also, people who have chosen to retire here now have an age limit of 75 because they will never get the insurance past that age.

 

There are other more simple options 

 

- hold a permanent bank balance of Baht 400,000 for all those on 12 month extension

or

- Let those on 12 month extension pay into the Thai public health system

or

- just not allow people to retire here (many are/will be leaving anyway)

400k Baht at what interest .In uk one can get 4%.

[Captain 776]

Sounds like dum American Democrats.

Couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with a shotgun from 1 meter away

[Captain 776]

1 hour ago, AAArdvark said:

"Life insurance"?  Do you care to share your age group and where you got this insurance?

Never make yourself worth more dead than alive........especially here

[statman78]

18 hours ago, fittobethaied said:

So, if I'm understanding all this correctly, one who came to Thailand on a Non-Immigrant O-A and has extended their 12 month stay for several years on the basis of retirement, that person can apply for a change of visa to Non-Immigrant O at the time of their extension renewal and be granted a 90 day permission to stay. Somewhere around 60 days into that new permission to stay one can go back to their local immigration office and convert that to a 12 month extension of stay based on retirement or marriage. If that be the case does the applicant have to now provide a police clearance and a medical certificate in addition to meeting the financial requirements just as he did when he applied for the Non-Immigrant O-A in his home country? 

I don’t know about the ability to come into Thailand on an O-A visa then at some time convert it to just an O visa.  About 1 year ago I entered with a SETV then while in Thailand converted it to the Non Imm O visa.  I did not need a police clearance or a medical certificate.  The O visa was valid for 90 days. During the last 30 days of validity I applied for extension of stay based on retirement.

[oslooskar]

1 hour ago, SteveK said:

Surely it should be money in the bank OR insurance?

I have more than 800,000 baht in my Thai bank account and I was still told I needed insurance as a condition of getting an extension of my O-A visa in early February. Draw your own conclusions. 

[fittobethaied]

I have read a number of times this most recent Police Order which contains 11 pages, the first 6 of which are in Thai and the last 5 in English. Only the 2nd page of the English translation is applicable to any discussion about an insurance requirement for those applying for an extension of stay, and it pertains only to Article 2.22 For Retirement.

 

In all of the above posts I have not heard anyone mention being able to avoid the mandatory Insurance requirement by simply changing the reason for the annual extension (which originated from a Non-Immigrant O-A Visa) from retirement to marriage, thus avoiding the requirement to have the insurance. When referring to extensions of stay, nowhere in the police order does it say that the insurance is required for any other category other than extensions based on retirement.

 

One possible misunderstanding of the new Police Order comes from the fact that the pages are not numbered and the order of the information doesn't flow properly. The English translated page number 2 should have been included as the last page, then it makes more sense. Only page 2 applies to extensions of stay, and all others apply to requirements to obtain Non-Immigrant O-A visas from outside of Thailand. 

 

Therefore, for those of us who are legally married, we should change our reason from retirement to marriage to extend our 12 month stay to avoid the insurance requirement while at the same time reducing our proof of income from 800,000 baht to 400,000 baht with no requirement to leave a portion in the bank past the date of our extensions. Now that's a win-win.  

Insurance O-A Visa New Police Order.pdf