Not feeling welcome

[kingofthemountain]

11 hours ago, nakluapattaya said:

Yes i do insult; again "most" westerners in Thailand as a group. Feel free to be insulted if u belong to that specific group.

TBH i mostly socialise only with fellow countrymen, in my own country. In Thailand i have a social circle of locals. As i speak the language i dont need to socialise with that group mentioned earlier. Not much to discover or fun to be had with those. I dont care about sleeping in a sh*tty hostel with backpackers, or listen to old degenerates talk and complain about their favorite beer, bars, and prostitutes all the time, like theres nothing else.

Can i ask to you why you have chosen to come and stay in Pattaya?

The temples? The beaches?

[Bruntoid]

17 hours ago, fishtank said:

We are not wanted. Fact.

Paranoia rules - it’s a fact if you say something often enough you will start to believe it. 
 

I have noted that the people most unhappy here seem to have a superior attitude to the locals - perhaps that’s behind it. 
 

I’ve never felt unwelcome here in my life, largely I believe as I try to be pleasant to everyone and I always seem to get it back. It works. 
 

You reap what you sow. 

[Thian]

17 hours ago, fishtank said:

We are not wanted. Fact.

Old guys from 70 coming to get a 20 yo girl.....you think the thai men like that?

[Skallywag]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

15 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

in my case its instability - at 45 i am comfortable and settled and can pay/qualify for anything i need, but with now TWO major changes to long stay visas

What are these "TWO" major changes in long stay visas for a 45 year old? (no "long stay" under 50 years old AFAIK)

I wish someone would actually say what has "changed" for them that is so disastrous  

[Bruntoid]

15 hours ago, SteveK said:

The insurance debacle is not about insurance. It's about deliberately adding an additional layer of hassle for ex-pats, and creating yet another cash-grab for local businesses. The insurance is clearly almost worthless. It's just more paperwork that immigration are going to demand. And yet another reason why neighbouring countries now look so welcoming to people just wanting to enjoy their retirement.

Nonsense - you are just paranoid. 

[ThaidDown]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

I agree, If you lived in the country for a reasonable length of time ( three years) and is married, all you should have to do is apply, provide evidence,  biometrics. and pay a reasonable processing fee.

At one time they considered granting PR or Citizenship after 20 years of marriage but it was rejected on the grounds that the Foreign applicant would never pass the sanity test after being married that long to a Thai.

 

 

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Bruntoid said:

Paranoia rules - it’s a fact if you say something often enough you will start to believe it. 
 

I have noted that the people most unhappy here seem to have a superior attitude to the locals - perhaps that’s behind it. 
 

I’ve never felt unwelcome here in my life, largely I believe as I try to be pleasant to everyone and I always seem to get it back. It works. 
 

You reap what you sow. 

Absolutely true my friend.

People like people that like them!!

If I knew, or felt that someone did not like me , I would not like them also.

and like animals  can sense fear. People can sense if you don't like them. or the condescension of a superiority come through loud and clear. 

13 years in Thailand, never had a problem. Do I have issues, of course I do , who and where there are no issues? But put them in the proper context and move on. LIfe is too short.

 

[ThaidDown]

14 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

Can i ask to you why you have chosen to come and stay in Pattaya?

The temples? The beaches?

'The beaches' ?? are you sure that is not a typo.

[smutcakes]

31 minutes ago, uhuh said:

Have you ever heard of TM 90, TM 30, TM 28? Plus I needed a certificate of residence,  that took 3 trips to CW (no, they didn't mail it) within 3 months. 

I like the market at CW, but the trips there are getting too frequent. 

Heard of them, but not sure which is which. I just go once a year. TM39 takes one minutes on the App. TM90 (i presume this is 90 day reporting) just get a motorbike taxi/driver to take for me. Whole year probably no more than 2-3 hours.

 

Then again i could look for problems and spend hours whinging about it, but frankly i have better things to do and worry about.

[Bruntoid]

15 hours ago, dimitriv said:

 

In all countries in the world you will get a passport or permanent residency allowing you to stay when you are married. So nothing to worry about after that.

 

Thailand is really the exception here.

 

 

and the U.K. ! 
 

Marriage in the U.K. definitely does not guarantee you either 

[Skallywag]

31 minutes ago, uhuh said:

Have you ever heard of TM 90, TM 30, TM 28? Plus I needed a certificate of residence,  that took 3 trips to CW (no, they didn't mail it) within 3 months. 

I like the market at CW, but the trips there are getting too frequent. 

the 90 day report is available online and every 90 days, not 2 months.  The TM 30 is only when you travel and register somewhere with your passport.  TM 30 reporting available online.  TM 28 and Cert. of residence you should have done when you first moved into your house, condo, or apartment.  One time deal AFAIK.  

[mokwit]

15 hours ago, SteveK said:

The insurance debacle is not about insurance. It's about deliberately adding an additional layer of hassle for ex-pats, and creating yet another cash-grab for local businesses. The insurance is clearly almost worthless. It's just more paperwork that immigration are going to demand. And yet another reason why neighbouring countries now look so welcoming to people just wanting to enjoy their retirement.

It is death by a thousand cuts - that is Thai way. The way Thai's 'manage out' people is by not giving them positive reinforcement - exactly as is being done to us. A Thai would immediately understand what the message was but Farang's don't. The Thai's are probably asking to themselves, 'what do we have to do to make them understand - stand up, wave our arms around and shout "LEAVE, JUST GO". They probably can't understand why we are not getting it.

 

Ask youselves this: Against a backdrop of TM30 disconcertion, when was the 'positive affirmation' free mango and sticky rice feast for Farang retirees? Getting the picture?

[uhuh]

3 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

the 90 day report is available online and every 90 days, not 2 months.  The TM 30 is only when you travel and register somewhere with your passport.  TM 30 reporting available online.  TM 28 and Cert. of residence you should have done when you first moved into your house, condo, or apartment.  One time deal AFAIK.  

Oh yeah. We all know how well those online applications work. 

90 day report is every three months,  throw in a bit of TM 30, and its more than that. 

Don't forget that sometimes you have to go to CW the next day again because you got queue number 387 (should have gotten up at 4 a.m., lazy guy!) or because they invented a new form TM 527 that you had never heard about. 

The trips to CW are not a disaster,  but no fun either. 

[wtfracing]

8 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

The notion that the only people who perceive that attitudes towards foreigners are changing are just those struggling to meet stricter immigration rules and making face saving excuses is classic TVF echo chamber mythology. This started getting repeated here about half a year ago, and has gradually taken root as if it were fact.

 

When I read posts from people claiming that they have noticed absolutely no change in local attitudes towards them I am truly baffled. I can only surmise that they are either dealing with Thais on such a superficial (solely transactional) basis that attitudes whether good or bad are barely detectable, or their interactions with Thais are so buffered (the wife does all of the interface/immigration agents are used) that opportunities to evaluate attitudes are minimized, or they cannot communicate well enough in Thai or have not been here long enough to effectively evaluate any changes in attitudes. Whether you agree with this or not, it is easy to cite a whole slew of objective socio-political-economic changes which have likely contributed to perceptions that the environment has become less welcoming than in the past:

 

1. In one of his earliest addresses after taking over the government, Prayut not only talked about foreign criminal elements operating in Thailand, but how Thailand's sex industry was a blemish on the country's international reputation. This stigmatized the entire ex-pat community as potential criminals and sex tourists. It also stigmatized Thai women in the sex industry or in relationships with foreign men, which made entering into relationships with foreign men less socially acceptable.

 

2. The 2008 financial crisis, falling (sometimes negative) interest rates, drops in currency exchange rates, cuts and uncertainty about the reliability of entitlement benefit programs have made more foreigners more frugal and price sensitive and in turn shifted perceptions that Westerners are all flush with money.

 

3. Social media (such as TVF) have made Western men more aware of the potential for being hoodwinked by Thai women for financial gain. As a result, Western men are being more cautious about leaping into marriage, making investments in real estate, or making themselves vulnerable to financial exploitation such as opening joint bank accounts with their spouse, etc. Because it has become - on average - simply less lucrative to become involved with foreign men, not as many Thais see entering into a relationship with a foreign man as attractive of an option as in the past. Rising minimum wages and higher personal incomes, etc., have also narrowed the income gap between Thais and expat retirees. The internet has of course accelerated familiarity with the outside world with foreigners losing a degree of mystique in the process.

 

4. With the rise of big box retailers (Makro, Big C, Lotus, Tops, HomePro, Robinson, Central, 7-11), many farmer's markets and small retailers no longer see foreigners as an important part of their client base worth cultivating. Many foreigners tend to favor these retailers for reasons of convenience and familiarity. These big box retailers also offer stiff price competition and allow for easier price discovery which also makes overcharging by small retailers more difficult. The fact that some of these retailers have foreign (or at least non-local) ownership has also contributed to class and xenophobic resentments.

 

5. Because of Immigration's crackdown on foreigners working as English teachers this has eliminated a major source of community contact and goodwill generated by foreigners working in volunteer or low paid teaching positions.

 

6. For years now, the government, in tandem with the media, has been engaged in a campaign to highlight every possible crime, misdeed, or immigration violation no matter how trivial committed by a foreigner. This has definitely shaped and coloured Thai perceptions of foreigners. Police campaigns encouraging the public to report any misconduct of foreigners has encouraged a block-warden mentality in many Thais, resulting in a steady stream of police tips, Facebook and Instagram posts documenting every cultural faux-pas or minor misdeed committed by a foreigner.

 

7. There's also a generation of kids who have come of age who have either grown up in or had some exposure to a Thai mother/foreign father household and had a chance to observe up close both the upside and downside of such marriages. Let's just say that if there was any instability in the relationship (arguing, domestic violence, child abuse or neglect, alcoholism, drug abuse, divorce, abandonment or other dysfunction) this may have contributed to their perceptions that marriage to a foreign man might not be all it's cracked up to be. I also think that many Thai women who initially were very focused on the short-term benefits (financial security) of having an older foreign husband are now grappling with the realities of having to care for the older husband as he ages. As this reality sinks in, some of the enthusiasm she, her family, and friends may have once felt may have begun to wane. All of the publicity in the media about domestic violence (including murder and suicide) between Thai female - foreign male couples has also had a dampening effect on enthusiasm for marrying a foreigner.

 

8. In my opinion, and contrary to Thai cultural mythology, respect and reverence for the elderly has pretty much fallen off a cliff in the past ten years. I think this has to do with the disintegration of the Thai nuclear family, driven by urbanization. If rural kids are raised by elderly uncles and aunties while their parents leave for Bangkok in search of employment, that doesn't always result in a wholesome gratitude for the care they received. More often than not, the elderly relative is a disengaged guardian, sometimes themselves having been raised in absent parent households, who the kids quickly learn can be safely ignored and tuned-out. The attitude that older people are invisible and can be safely ignored of course spills over to attitudes about older expats as well.

 

9. There's also a school of thought that Thailand, like a number of other SE Asian countries, has fallen under the spell of China which appears to want to consolidate its sphere of influence in the region. Lured by promises of financing for large infrastructure projects and military aid, the Thai government may be deliberately becoming less welcoming of Western expats because they are seen as potential voices of Western liberalism. China also is suffering an imbalance of males to females, and may see SE Asia as providing a safety valve for this problem by eliminating the competition sex tourism presents. When you consider what is going on in neighboring countries vis-a-vis Chinese investment and consider the talk about possible decoupling of the world economy into different spheres, some of these immigration moves perceived as unfriendly towards Western foreigners start to make a little more sense.

 

 

Well written.

[NoshowJones]

28 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

What are these "TWO" major changes in long stay visas for a 45 year old? (no "long stay" under 50 years old AFAIK)

I wish someone would actually say what has "changed" for them that is so disastrous  

I did not write the post answering this, but as for the last paragraph, If you have been reading Thaivisa 

much, then you should know the answer.

[Skallywag]

22 minutes ago, uhuh said:

90 day report is every three months,  throw in a bit of TM 30, and its more than that. 

CW - Chengwatana I presume, yes been there, not fun.  Best find an agent/IT knowledgeable friend that can set you up with an online account for reporting TM-30's if you travel a lot.  I had someone help with my first online 90 day report, it works.

[Skallywag]

6 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

I did not write the post answering this, but as for the last paragraph, If you have been reading Thaivisa 

much, then you should know the answer.

And with that sentence, why could you not have stated the answer? 

Is it the seasoning period of an extra 3 months for your 400K in the bank?  The now enforced TM-30? 

I really don't see how those 2 items make a huge difference in anyone's life. My opinion of course

[bkk6060]

45 minutes ago, Thian said:

Old guys from 70 coming to get a 20 yo girl.....you think the thai men like that?

This is very very true many do not think about it.

Lots of jealousy out there by Thai males.

In fact, I believe it may have an effect on decisions made regarding requirements/treatment of expats.  Coming here and taking some of their young good lookers off the market.

[NoshowJones]

20 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

And with that sentence, why could you not have stated the answer? 

Is it the seasoning period of an extra 3 months for your 400K in the bank?  The now enforced TM-30? 

I really don't see how those 2 items make a huge difference in anyone's life. My opinion of course

Yes your opinion, but a very few others I would think.

[nakluapattaya]

1 hour ago, kingofthemountain said:

Can i ask to you why you have chosen to come and stay in Pattaya?

The temples? The beaches?

Not the temples xD I stayed in Pattaya from age 22 till 26, because i didnt speak Thai yet, BKK is too chaotic for me.

Pattaya folks all speak english as they work with tourists so that was convenient, there is a wide choice of international foods, close to BKK and suvarnabhumi, Koh-Laan has the best beach in this region of Thailand (Haat Thien). I could stay in Pattaya for years on a ED visa. And i loved to use Tinder and other dating apps, let me just say that it "gave me alot of free fruits to harvest" due to my age and looks at that time ???? That includes agogo girls, that didnt find a customer for the night. They would just come and spend the night. Thanks Tinder! Didnt visit a bar during my stay in Pattaya.

 

Anyway i got older and bored of it, got to know how to read and write Thai, and got away from Pattaya. Lived in CM after that. And now i just frequent Rayong city sometimes for prawnfishing, with occasional trips to the north for mountain hiking.

 

Dont live filltime in Thailand anymore. And ATM dont want it anymore. Family members are getting older, and passing away. And i want to spend more time with them, before they are all gone.

[JAFO]

15 hours ago, Psimbo said:

Nothing to do with 'Westerners'- the majority they target are Burmese, Laotians and Cambodians along with other Asiatic and African nations. 'Westerners' form a very small part of the overall picture but like to big up their own self-importance on here. 

Spot on. Westerners have this belief that Thai's are out to get them. Its really quite pathetic to read these threads and all the self pity posted.

 

In the US when they made health insurance mandatory do you think those folks all sat around saying "Man the U.S. wants me out of here?, Where will I go. I cannot afford it. Blah blah. 

 

Laws and policies are always going to change. Its all part of a country growing and emerging. Its the price that's paid. If you meet the new rules you can stay, does not matter race, color or religion. If you can't...well then. Choices have to be made.

[sillyfool]

14 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Spot on. Westerners have this belief that Thai's are out to get them. Its really quite pathetic to read these threads and all the self pity posted.

 

In the US when they made health insurance mandatory do you think those folks all sat around saying "Man the U.S. wants me out of here?, Where will I go. I cannot afford it. Blah blah. 

 

Laws and policies are always going to change. Its all part of a country growing and emerging. Its the price that's paid. If you meet the new rules you can stay, does not matter race, color or religion. If you can't...well then. Choices have to be made.

stop it. common sense posts among these threads is just strange. haha

[theonetrueaussie]

Look It's pretty simple I am young compared with most here and a long way from retiring but I remember coming here 6 years ago for the first time and it was GREAT. There was so much freedom the dollar went a long way and you could relax here and not really worry about most things. Wow how things have changed in just 6 years.... The visa situation went from not a problem, relaxed to over the top enforcement and denying many for any reason they want to making just entering a nerve racking experience.

The AUD has dropped from 33 to 20 and yet the fruit and veg and products from Australia have not budged an inch in price in fact most have gone up. Because of the high THB most expats are no longer spending like they used to and many locals(not all) are not happy about expats being stingy. The cost of many condos/apartments are now getting closer and closer to western prices the cost of living is rising closer to a western cost of living.

The cheap easy going relaxed Thailand that most fell in love with is now a thing of the past and I don't see it returning anytime soon.

[uhuh]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

This is very very true many do not think about it.

Lots of jealousy out there by Thai males.

In fact, I believe it may have an effect on decisions made regarding requirements/treatment of expats.  Coming here and taking some of their young good lookers off the market.

Farangs don't take good lookers (in the eyes of Thai men).

Good lookers in the eye of Thai men means white skin. 

Farangs usually prefer tanned skin, the real ugly ones (in the eyes of Thai men). And farangs even accept women who have children. 

Farangs really take the left-overs, and Thais have always found this weird. 

[nakluapattaya]

Just now, uhuh said:

Farangs don't take good lookers (in the eyes of Thai men).

Good lookers in the eye of Thai men means white skin. 

Farangs usually prefer tanned skin, the real ugly ones (in the eyes of Thai men). And farangs even accept women who have children. 

Farangs really take the left-overs, and Thais have always found this weird. 

BS, white skin is a factor but does not mean anything, its mostly about facial structure. Girls in the north, and some Isaan provinces are actually very light skinned, but have an ugly face according to Thai standards. and short legs. Its about a combination of all. Cute girls not too dark prefered by Thai guys.

 

Also the younger generation of westerners coming to Thailand, have much more pretty and cute girls. Sometimes i see a young western guy dating a solid 8/10 Thai girl. Common thing to see these days.

[Mavideol]

19 hours ago, fishtank said:

We are not wanted. Fact.

Nope, see what IMO said  "Tourists will be safe and we will be good hosts" says tourist police chief

[kevin612]

I don’t understand the detail as well.

[Stevemercer]

I still feel welcome in Thailand. The people are great, still smiling and happy. I live in  town out in the north-east.

 

I've been here 6 years now and the loss of income due to the appreciating Baht has made a difference. I guess I'm living on 40% less than when I first got here. I find it strange that the price of things made in Thailand has stayed much the same, but imports keep going up in price. Somebody must be pocketing a bundle.

 

I do worry a little about the future in Thailand. It is well known history that a high local currency benefits the elite and wealthy of a country. But sooner or later there must be a reckoning and it is the poor who pay for the good times.

 

I'm tempted to think about a move back to Australia because day to day living costs are now comparable. If only we could sell our house and land in Thailand for a fair price so as to afford a modest bedsitter in Australia!

 

Just about all my wife's Thai children now live in Australia. They prefer it there because they can work hard and make some real money (provided they don't try and bring it back to Thailand). Soon Thailand will be cluttered up with old people like ourselves.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

10 hours ago, sillyfool said:

not feeling welcome....then go home. so many whiners on this site it's becoming embarrassing.

 

thailand owes you nothing. the entitled sentiment shared by so many on here is laughable. 

 

I partially agree with this, there are plenty of 'whiners' on this forum who seem to express a sense of entitlement.

 

However, for those who are married and face having to move their family or move away from their family due to visa woes the shifting sands can be extremely concerning. 

 

Some have been supporting their family for well over a decade - in 'other countries' they would have been afforded Permanent residence by now, even a passport. 

 

A friend (Thai) had her British Passport within 3 years of moving the UK with her husband. My Wife's cousin (Thai) now has a British passport after working in the UK for 3-4 years. 

 

Yes, there is an option to go PR in Thailand but reports suggest that the option is limited and an extremely difficult process. 

 

The only viable option is to continue to jump through the hoops implemented by Immigration - fair enough, this is the policy, but to have to do this year in year out is overkill, especially for those married here, with children here or retired here.  They have proven that they meet the requirements, why is there a need to repeatedly prove this? it makes little sense, hence the 'whinge' is valid. 

 

I think it is universally accepted and agreed that Thailand owes us nothing, it can also be agreed the bureaucracy is overkill. 

 

[madmen]

37 minutes ago, uhuh said:

Farangs don't take good lookers (in the eyes of Thai men).

Good lookers in the eye of Thai men means white skin. 

Farangs usually prefer tanned skin, the real ugly ones (in the eyes of Thai men). And farangs even accept women who have children. 

Farangs really take the left-overs, and Thais have always found this weird. 

Its extremely rare to see a hot thai wife with an expat. I dont get why they go for the ugly ones and take their kids as well playing stepdad at age 60...why??