trying to buy a condo under 1000000

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/4/2019 at 7:45 AM, Pdavies99 said:

Why not just rent?  Keep you life fluid and options open.   (No neighbour issues etc!)

Indeed. How many years can one rent a condo or house for the price of buying one? Then when the inevitable happens and one doesn't want to live next to an all night karaoke, one can move.

[thaibeachlovers]

TVF is a funny forum.

Dozens of threads about posters wanting to leave because of the visa situation and someone pops up saying they want to BUY a property.

Visa situation isn't going to get better, and prices are not going to get lower.

[moontang]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

People seem to be prepared to hold on to property here waiting for the right price. Perhaps because the overheads are low, no property taxes. 

Yep, and maintenance fees are usually much less than we are used to... desperate sellers are often those with trouble making payments.. so even a foreigner forced out might still use it for a few months a year, let alone renting it out, which again justifies leaving it empty.  My fees are 10,000 per year.. Less than parking for three weeks at Dulles.  10000 is worth it to keep my personal belongings here and have a functional home, when I visit.  Just don't pay top dollar and you won't have to sell for top dollar, but can still try.  

[newnative]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

TVF is a funny forum.

Dozens of threads about posters wanting to leave because of the visa situation and someone pops up saying they want to BUY a property.

Visa situation isn't going to get better, and prices are not going to get lower.

     Yes, indeed.  And, no surprise to me.  I think there will always be people who want to own the place where they live.  Not for them living in someone else's place, looking at someone else's taste (or lack of it) in art and furnishings, being able to do what they want with their space, and not constantly worrying about breaking something that they will likely be charged an arm and a leg for.   Include me in.

     As Moontang has mentioned, one of the great things about owning in Thailand is the low maintenance fees and no taxes.  It's easily affordable to own a place in Thailand even if you are only here part-time.  For many, it's worth it for them to own, have their own things, and not have to haul stuff back and forth when they visit.

      With all the endless talk about the 'visa situation', in my nearly 10 years here the only change has been the requirement to report my 800,000 as still being in the bank 3 months after my yearly renewal.  Since, like many, I've parked it there and don't use it, not a big deal.

     Bkk6060 reminds us that there are 12,000 condos for sale in Pattaya so there's certainly a large number to choose from if you wish to buy rather than rent.  (Although if you have a specific area you want to live in and specific things you want in both a condo unit and a condo project, that 12,000 quicky whittles down--to 12 or less when my partner and I bought recently. ) Happy hunting.

[Leaver]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Visa situation isn't going to get better, and prices are not going to get lower.

 

1 hour ago, newnative said:

Bkk6060 reminds us that there are 12,000 condos for sale in Pattaya so there's certainly a large number to choose from

 

So, there's 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, and they keep building more, but prices are not going to get lower.  Really?  Can you explain this?

 

In general, the property market follows market forces of supply and demand.  Are you suggesting an oversupply has no effect on the market here?

 

With an aging expat population, tougher and more expensive visa requirements, lower exchange rates, and a new tourist demographic of Chinese and Indians, I expect prices to drop, significantly.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

 

So, there's 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, and they keep building more, but prices are not going to get lower.  Really?  Can you explain this?

 

In general, the property market follows market forces of supply and demand.  Are you suggesting an oversupply has no effect on the market here?

 

With an aging expat population, tougher and more expensive visa requirements, lower exchange rates, and a new tourist demographic of Chinese and Indians, I expect prices to drop, significantly.

Expect away, but the Thai way is to not drop prices, and often to increase them.

I'm not psychic, so some catastrophic event might change the situation, but barring that I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for a significant drop.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

Yes, indeed.  And, no surprise to me.  I think there will always be people who want to own the place where they live.  Not for them living in someone else's place, looking at someone else's taste (or lack of it) in art and furnishings, being able to do what they want with their space, and not constantly worrying about breaking something that they will likely be charged an arm and a leg for.   Include me in.

I understand that, but do those that buy understand that they have no control and little recourse if the once great deal turns sour and the chance of getting a good sale price is minimal?

All night karaoke starts up across the road- who ya gonna call? Might as well be ghostbusters for all the help you'll get from city hall.

For me the deciding factor was always that one might want to move in a hurry- it's not Kansas, Toto.

[Leaver]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Expect away, but the Thai way is to not drop prices, and often to increase them.

I was thinking more along the lines of foreign vendors, hence mentioning aging expats, visa requirements, exchange rates, and tourist demographics. 

[moontang]

They have barely scratched the surface of the India mob.  And the Chinese are just starting... must seem pretty cheap to them compared to South China.  You can't set your price based on exchange rates, but they can give you some breathing room if you don't buy when the fx is terrible.  But what is bad for you may be great for others.  A million THB condo in Patts or a million baht car or truck.... I am going with the condo, even though I personally don't like Patts, but never say never.  

[kingofthemountain]

52 minutes ago, Leaver said:

So, there's 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, and they keep building more, but prices are not going to get lower.  Really?  Can you explain this?

 

In general, the property market follows market forces of supply and demand.  Are you suggesting an oversupply has no effect on the market here?

It's called a bubble

all is ok until it explodes

[Leaver]

21 minutes ago, moontang said:

They have barely scratched the surface of the India mob.  And the Chinese are just starting..

Are you suggesting the Chinese and Indians will buy condo's here, as an investment, to rent to their fellow countrymen, on AirBnB and the the like?

 

Or, are you suggesting the Chinese and Indians will buy condo's here, with a view to holidaying here regularly?

 

Or, are you suggesting the Chinese and Indians will buy condo's here, with a view to living in them upon their retirement?

 

I know the Chinese are renting condo's, for a cheap rate, on long leases, and then renting them out for short stay visitors, at a higher per night rate, and keeping the difference.  This is reasonably risk free, and they can rent many condo's, which not a big outlay, so why would they buy for the same purpose?

[Leaver]

21 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

It's called a bubble

all is ok until it explodes

With 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, I think it fair to say the bubble has burst. 

[bmanly]

40 minutes ago, Leaver said:

With 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, I think it fair to say the bubble has burst. 

I don't think so. The bubble bursts when prices start spiralling downwards but this is not happening. Going price in VT6 for a high studio 44sqm with views is still between 4 and 5 million baht. They are not dropping their prices. Same in lesser quality buildings where some of my mates live, there are no fire sales there. And if and when VT6 starts selling condos for half price then I will be lining up to buy one but this isn't happening.

[Leaver]

31 minutes ago, bmanly said:

The bubble bursts when prices start spiralling downwards but this is not happening.

Care to comment about a property market where people walk away, and leave properties abandoned? Think some cities in America, post GFC. 

 

See all the condo blocks here with no lights on at night?

 

31 minutes ago, bmanly said:

Going price in VT6 for a high studio 44sqm with views is still between 4 and 5 million baht. They are not dropping their prices.

A lot of people don't want to sell for a loss, or can't afford to sell for a loss.  They are willing to hold out for the price they paid for their condo, or more, but this is undermined by the continual oversupply, and now visa law changes, and exchange rates. 

 

This is why many condo's remain on the market here for years. All the while, with more and more coming onto the market.

 

Many of these vendors will struggle to sell, even in a fire sale. 

 

I'm guessing many now wished they rented, and not bought in. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, bmanly said:

Same in lesser quality buildings where some of my mates live, there are no fire sales there.

How old are your friends?

 

 

Do you think 12,000 condo's for sale, in a major tourist destination, in a major tourist destination country, is the sign of a healthy property market? 

 

How many condo's would have to be on the market before you say something is amiss?  20,000 condo's?  25,000 condos? 

 

[thaitero]

No bubbles in Pattaya..
EEC will bring jobs, money and investments, Expansion of UTP and high speed train station will bring more people of all sorts also,,,

[moontang]

39 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Care to comment about a property market where people walk away, and leave properties abandoned? Think some cities in America, post GFC. 

 

See all the condo blocks here with no lights on at night?

 

A lot of people don't want to sell for a loss, or can't afford to sell for a loss.  They are willing to hold out for the price they paid for their condo, or more, but this is undermined by the continual oversupply, and now visa law changes, and exchange rates. 

 

This is why many condo's remain on the market here for years. All the while, with more and more coming onto the market.

 

Many of these vendors will struggle to sell, even in a fire sale. 

 

I'm guessing many now wished they rented, and not bought in. 

 

 

How old are your friends?

 

 

Do you think 12,000 condo's for sale, in a major tourist destination, in a major tourist destination country, is the sign of a healthy property market? 

 

How many condo's would have to be on the market before you say something is amiss?  20,000 condo's?  25,000 condos? 

 

Yeah, the bubble did burst in most of the US.  I bought a condo in Summerlin, a townhouse in Phoenix, and a house in Phoenix in 09-10...all at more than 75% off of previous sale.  I kept the house for two years, and sold it myself for 160% more.. now 7 years later, the buyer has it listed for 1000% more than I paid and 370% more than he paid.  As stated, if the bubble burst, there would be some fire sales and auctions.. just like the US.. Maybe you could post a link to one such fire sale in Patts or any other city in Thailand.. Or is the Internet broken, today?  A friend sold easily for 8.7 in Hua Hin over the Summer.  I visited right before he closed, and even used it a few times sin e he built it 10 years before.  He could have gotten 12m in 2012, with a similarly strong THB, and was slightly regretful, but he had many renters at 20,000 per week, and a few leases at 35-45 per month.. all legal and above board.  So like Patts, prices are down some, but he was firm on his price and it was not important for him to sell.  700m from the crappy beach, Chinese and Russians all over the place, and a local restaurant selling an ear of corn for 170 THB.  The Chinese are always eager to get money out, and will take less than 3% yields in prime areas.. And the lights are off... give me a break.. about the 1000th time I have heard that.  We have 6 units for sale out of 571 units.. on any given night, there are less than five balcony lights on.. superstition, not wasting electric, can't find someone to change a bulb up high? who knows.. but we are highly occupied, and there is a total of one unit in default to the condo office.. legal documents hanging from his door, and noted in the annual report.. thirty year old building.  So maybe try something a bit more based on data.. or at least post a link.  Plenty of cash around to buy at a fire sale, too.  By all means, let us know.  

[Lacrimas]

Look on Kaidee.com or Facebook groups dedicated to real estate. With the oversupply of condos that you have this days it might not be that difficult to find a decent place for under 1 MLN

[newnative]

6 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

 

So, there's 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, and they keep building more, but prices are not going to get lower.  Really?  Can you explain this?

 

In general, the property market follows market forces of supply and demand.  Are you suggesting an oversupply has no effect on the market here?

 

With an aging expat population, tougher and more expensive visa requirements, lower exchange rates, and a new tourist demographic of Chinese and Indians, I expect prices to drop, significantly.

You need to direct your questions to Thaibeachlover.  He's the one who posted about condo prices not going lower, not me.  

[scubascuba3]

i guess the lack of price drops is because falang pay with cash. With thais i assume most have loans of some sort so if their condos are empty I'm surprised more don't get repossessed

[newnative]

4 hours ago, Leaver said:

Are you suggesting the Chinese and Indians will buy condo's here, as an investment, to rent to their fellow countrymen, on AirBnB and the the like?

 

Or, are you suggesting the Chinese and Indians will buy condo's here, with a view to holidaying here regularly?

 

Or, are you suggesting the Chinese and Indians will buy condo's here, with a view to living in them upon their retirement?

 

I know the Chinese are renting condo's, for a cheap rate, on long leases, and then renting them out for short stay visitors, at a higher per night rate, and keeping the difference.  This is reasonably risk free, and they can rent many condo's, which not a big outlay, so why would they buy for the same purpose?

   I CAN answer this question and, with the Chinese, the answer is they are buying for investment and they are also buying to live in.   My last 5 condo sales have been to Chinese.  One of the sales was, I think, for investment and the other 4 buyers planned to live in the condos, either full or part-time with holiday and other visits.  Two of the condos were 2 bedroom/2 bath, one was a Bangkok studio, and the other 2 were 1 bedrooms.  Prices ranged from 3.25MB to 10.5MB.

    Next door to me is an older, retired Chinese couple who bought their condo (not from me) and visit part-time, mostly in the winter months.  When I lived at another condo project there was an extended Chinese family that had bought 3 condos side-by-side at the pool level.  Grandparents, parents, and kids visited several times a year.  I thought they might rent out the units when they weren't there but I never saw them rented out.

     I don't have any experience selling to Indians and I don't know what will happen with that large population but it wouldn't surprise me if they have started buying condos in Thailand--which is not too far away. They are certainly coming in large numbers and that could result in some sales at some point.

    One thing to consider is the mindset that considers Pattaya 'dead' because the local farang watering hole once popular with westerners is now mostly empty.  My favorite bar is empty=Pattaya is dead=the property market must also be dead.  In reality, Pattaya is doing quite well with a different tourist demographic.  In my personal experience, my condo sales in my first years here were mostly to westerners, Thais, and Russians.  In addition to my last 5 sales being to Chinese, I also had a sale to a Singaporean.  So, my recent condo sales are somewhat reflecting the changing tourist demographic.  

[newnative]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I understand that, but do those that buy understand that they have no control and little recourse if the once great deal turns sour and the chance of getting a good sale price is minimal?

All night karaoke starts up across the road- who ya gonna call? Might as well be ghostbusters for all the help you'll get from city hall.

For me the deciding factor was always that one might want to move in a hurry- it's not Kansas, Toto.

     Well, you do want to try to buy wisely.  Which is why my partner and I whittled down the 12000 condos supposedly for sale in Pattaya to less than 12. Probably more like 6.  I've said before that I like to own even knowing I might lose some money--life is short.  But, if renting works, go for it.  

[Leaver]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

You need to direct your questions to Thaibeachlover.  He's the one who posted about condo prices not going lower, not me.  

I did.

 

I only quoted you as stating there are currently 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya. 

[newnative]

1 minute ago, Leaver said:

I did.

 

I only quoted you as stating there are currently 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya. 

   But you are wrong there, as well.  I stated that Bkk6060 has said there are 12000 condos for sale.  I have no idea how many condos there are for sale.  Bkk6060 says 12,000 and I was using his figure.   I do know that when you start looking for something to buy, and you are a careful buyer with specific wants, needs, and budget, the supposedly 12000 quickly reduces to a handful.

[Leaver]

3 hours ago, moontang said:

Maybe you could post a link to one such fire sale in Patts or any other city in Thailand..

You don't have to have sales data to see that a property bubble has burst.  Many times there are simply abandoned properties, because they could not be sold.  Eg. The US, post GFC.

 

Found this article after a very quick Google.  Yes, it's Bangkok, but at 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, I think it fair to say the Pattaya property market is experiencing similar conditions.

 

https://www.thailand-business-news.com/real-estate/75873-record-low-condo-sales-hits-bangkok-condo-market.html

 

You give one example of your friend's sale in Hua Hin, but what about the 12,000 condo's sitting on the market here?  Do you think that indicates a healthy property market?

 

3 hours ago, moontang said:

We have 6 units for sale out of 571 units..

 

Who are "we?"  Are you talking about collective owners in your own condo block, or are you in real estate here?

 

3 hours ago, moontang said:

And the lights are off... give me a break.. about the 1000th time I have heard that. 

 

So, it's all about the balcony light bulb only, not electricity into the whole property?  Give me a break. 

 

Note in the above article:

 

"Empty homes (Every type of residential units) are residential units which use less electricity than 15 units per month which indicates that there is almost no use."

 

 

 

 

 

[Leaver]

7 minutes ago, newnative said:

   But you are wrong there, as well.  I stated that Bkk6060 has said there are 12000 condos for sale.  I have no idea how many condos there are for sale.  Bkk6060 says 12,000 and I was using his figure.   I do know that when you start looking for something to buy, and you are a careful buyer with specific wants, needs, and budget, the supposedly 12000 quickly reduces to a handful.

Ok.

 

Bkk6060 stated there are 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya.

 

You work in real estate, so, do you think 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya indicates a healthy property market?

[Leaver]

40 minutes ago, newnative said:

In reality, Pattaya is doing quite well with a different tourist demographic. 

Care to comment on the threads running in the news section where a Thai official states:

 

"Thai tourism in trouble, and Vietnam is scary for Pattaya."

 

Also, the other thread:

 

"Pattaya Halloween, the only scary thing was the complete lack of tourists." 

 

[kingofthemountain]

7 hours ago, Leaver said:

With 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, I think it fair to say the bubble has burst. 

Not yet but it's on the way

[kingofthemountain]

5 hours ago, thaitero said:

No bubbles in Pattaya..
EEC will bring jobs, money and investments, Expansion of UTP and high speed train station will bring more people of all sorts also,,,

...Or not

a lot of ''hub'' of everything already  have ended in nothing more than

hot air and some costly pre studies by ''authorized'' agencies

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Ok.

 

Bkk6060 stated there are 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya.

 

You work in real estate, so, do you think 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya indicates a healthy property market?

As he has writed in his post, only 5 or 6 of the 12 000 condos are bargain.

The 11995 are overpriced or\and too far from the center or'and with a crapy management

and so on.

Yes the chineses have buyed some of them (And few indians have made the same thing) but now the chinese economy is in trouble plus some chineses owners start to realise it was not really a very good idea to buy here (I don't detail the reasons, everybody a little bit serious know already why ) and with internet now the words spread quick.

Then who's next to save the pattaya real estate market? The africans? the martians?

Imo the bubble burst is not far, for example if the Thais owners are unable to pay the loans, and the banks need to sale quickly, the spiral can go down very quick

And i don't even imagine the possible scenario where the authorities decide a

total ban on rbnb and co. it not going long until the real estate crash in this case.

[moontang]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

You don't have to have sales data to see that a property bubble has burst.  Many times there are simply abandoned properties, because they could not be sold.  Eg. The US, post GFC.

 

Found this article after a very quick Google.  Yes, it's Bangkok, but at 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya, I think it fair to say the Pattaya property market is experiencing similar conditions.

 

https://www.thailand-business-news.com/real-estate/75873-record-low-condo-sales-hits-bangkok-condo-market.html

 

You give one example of your friend's sale in Hua Hin, but what about the 12,000 condo's sitting on the market here?  Do you think that indicates a healthy property market?

 

 

Who are "we?"  Are you talking about collective owners in your own condo block, or are you in real estate here?

 

 

So, it's all about the balcony light bulb only, not electricity into the whole property?  Give me a break. 

 

Note in the above article:

 

"Empty homes (Every type of residential units) are residential units which use less electricity than 15 units per month which indicates that there is almost no use."

 

 

 

 

 

There was a fire sale in the US, when the Internet bubble burst and in 2008....there were fire sale prices in both cases.. Still waiting to see the link to the fire sale in bkk or Patts.  12000 units for sale.. Out of how many.. 240,000?  That would be 5%.  10%+ turnover per year is normal in many markets.  We, as in my co-owners are selling about 2% of our thirty year old building.  During the GFC, saw entire hoods with half the units in some state of foreclosure.. not pretty, but anyone, who bought did very well, including stockholders of companies like Blackstone that bought thousands and thousands of units, and has raised rents 100%, in ten years to all the genius renters that wouldn't buy at the high or the low. They are the real losers in the game.  They never played.  But, just rent is a great soundbite for the Lefty nanny staters, who just love to be victims.. it just reaffirms their status as commoners.