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trying to buy a condo under 1000000


parafareno

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5 hours ago, moontang said:

Yeah, the bubble did burst in most of the US.  I bought a condo in Summerlin, a townhouse in Phoenix, and a house in Phoenix in 09-10...all at more than 75% off of previous sale.  I kept the house for two years, and sold it myself for 160% more.. now 7 years later, the buyer has it listed for 1000% more than I paid and 370% more than he paid.  As stated, if the bubble burst, there would be some fire sales and auctions.. just like the US.. Maybe you could post a link to one such fire sale in Patts or any other city in Thailand.. Or is the Internet broken, today?  A friend sold easily for 8.7 in Hua Hin over the Summer.  I visited right before he closed, and even used it a few times sin e he built it 10 years before.  He could have gotten 12m in 2012, with a similarly strong THB, and was slightly regretful, but he had many renters at 20,000 per week, and a few leases at 35-45 per month.. all legal and above board.  So like Patts, prices are down some, but he was firm on his price and it was not important for him to sell.  700m from the crappy beach, Chinese and Russians all over the place, and a local restaurant selling an ear of corn for 170 THB.  The Chinese are always eager to get money out, and will take less than 3% yields in prime areas.. And the lights are off... give me a break.. about the 1000th time I have heard that.  We have 6 units for sale out of 571 units.. on any given night, there are less than five balcony lights on.. superstition, not wasting electric, can't find someone to change a bulb up high? who knows.. but we are highly occupied, and there is a total of one unit in default to the condo office.. legal documents hanging from his door, and noted in the annual report.. thirty year old building.  So maybe try something a bit more based on data.. or at least post a link.  Plenty of cash around to buy at a fire sale, too.  By all means, let us know.  

Interesting that you bring here the experience of your friend in Hua Hin

there is a topic about it just started on TVF and it does not really match

the reality you describe

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1131061-real-estate-firm-surveys-hua-hin-property-market/

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2 hours ago, Leaver said:

Ok.

 

Bkk6060 stated there are 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya.

 

You work in real estate, so, do you think 12,000 condo's for sale in Pattaya indicates a healthy property market?

     I'm not a realtor. I'm not a developer. I'm not a landlord.  My partner and I have fallen into a pattern of:  buy a condo, fix it up, live in it, get restless, sell it, buy another condo fix it up, live in it, get restless, sell it... And, repeat, repeat, repeat. About 12 time in the US and 19 times here. All at a profit--although some profits were small.

     I have no idea if there are actually 12,000 condos for sale in Pattaya.  We just bought a condo so maybe the number is now 11,999.  But, someone may have just finished a new condo so perhaps it's back to 12,000.  Who knows.  I think it's safe to say it's a constantly changing number.

     Whatever the number, whether it's healthy or not I have no idea.  My partner and I continue to find buyers for our condos when we get restless once again and decide to sell.  But, we're not a developer with 1000 condos to sell.  We just need to find 1 buyer for our 1 condo and, so far, someone has always come along, both in America and here.  Sometimes they arrive quickly, and sometimes we have to wait awhile. 

     As I said in an earlier post, when we started looking for the condo we just bought we quickly narrowed down the supposedly 12,000 condos to just a handful--so 12,000, or whatever the number for sale, wasn't too relevant for us.  What's relevant is finding the condo you like, in the project you like, with the things you want and need, in the area you want to be in, and at a price you can afford. 

    I would say if you are worried about a glut of condos, if you're sleepless thinking about a property bubble, if you're having nightmares about buying a condo and losing some money, then there's always the option of renting.     

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3 hours ago, Leaver said:

Care to comment on the threads running in the news section where a Thai official states:

 

"Thai tourism in trouble, and Vietnam is scary for Pattaya."

 

Also, the other thread:

 

"Pattaya Halloween, the only scary thing was the complete lack of tourists." 

 

    I already commented on this in an earlier thread when the Pattaya Halloween article came out.  Onward.

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11 hours ago, Leaver said:
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Care to comment about a property market where people walk away, and leave properties abandoned? Think some cities in America, post GFC.

Yes that was the USA, it's not happening here. 

 

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See all the condo blocks here with no lights on at night?

Arrrhhhhh the ol lights off at night comment hey? A lot of people have condos for holidays and most of the time they are not there. 

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A lot of people don't want to sell for a loss, or can't afford to sell for a loss.  They are willing to hold out for the price they paid for their condo, or more, but this is undermined by the continual oversupply, and now visa law changes, and exchange rates. 

That's correct, this is mostly the Thai mindset. The farangs won't fire sale either unless they are desperate. As I said, when these fire sales come up, they are gone quickly.

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This is why many condo's remain on the market here for years. All the while, with more and more coming onto the market.

That's right because Thais won't sell at a loss, they just don't care.

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Many of these vendors will struggle to sell, even in a fire sale.

That's BS, if a fire sale came along in VT6 for example and a 4M baht unit was on the market at firesale 2M baht, it would be sold within a day. This is just not happening. A close friend of mine just sold a high 1 bedroom unit in VT6 with panoramic views for 11M baht to a Chinese Australian. He made a tiday profit as he bought the place when it was built. 

 

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I'm guessing many now wished they rented, and not bought in.

 None of my friends regret their their decision to buy a condo, why? Because most of them have been living there for 20 years plus and the money they have saved by not renting has more than paid off.

 

 

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How old are your friends?

Mostly from 65 to 85 y/o.

 

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Do you think 12,000 condo's for sale, in a major tourist destination, in a major tourist destination country, is the sign of a healthy property market?

It's probably a sign of over supply but not of a bubble bursting which is what you suggest. You really don't know this market that well. I stayed in 9 Karat Condo for several years. Half of the condos in there are not inhabited. This was 15 years ago and it's still the same now. A lot of Thais go into default, banks take possession and just just hang on to them indefinitely. Then the maintenance fees rack up, month after month, year after year. Sometimes even if they do sell one that is in default most of the proceeds goes towards paying all those unpaid fees. So for a Thai or a bank, they would rather hang on indefinitely as there is nothing left to lose. In the 5 years of living there, the unit next door to me was only ever occupied once. It's got nothing to do with lights or bubbles bursting. 

 

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How many condo's would have to be on the market before you say something is amiss?  20,000 condo's?  25,000 condos?

 Any amount, it is of no consequence. All I care about is the price I can buy in for. There is almost no fire sales, there has been no burst bubble, where are these half price condos in VT6? There are none, good unit blocks always attract good prices and nothing has changed.

 

 

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a lot of people buy them in pattaya and try to rent on airbnb. i dont recommend it.

 

thats not as easy as it looks. a couple bad reviews and your sunk, since there is so much competition and price keeps getting undercut. people watching 24/7 ready to undercut your price, even on specific dates.

 

also, you have to keep cleaning the rental each time for short term daily renters, etc. etc.

 

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7 hours ago, bmanly said:

Yes that was the USA, it's not happening here. 

Abandoned houses reflect on the property market, no matter what country.

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

 

Arrrhhhhh the ol lights off at night comment hey? A lot of people have condos for holidays and most of the time they are not there. 

Or, the electricity has been cut, showing no use at all. 

 

At what stage would you classify a property as abandoned?

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

That's correct, this is mostly the Thai mindset. The farangs won't fire sale either unless they are desperate. As I said, when these fire sales come up, they are gone quickly.

 

The Thai's will simply default.  Thai's already have record household debt.  The banks already have many repossessed properties on their books. 

 

Many farang will just die in the property, leaving their Thai partner the property that will be difficult to liquidate.

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

That's right because Thais won't sell at a loss, they just don't care.

I agree, they do not want to lose face by selling at a loss.  Hence, eventually, they walk away.  Thus, an abandoned property.  

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

That's BS, if a fire sale came along in VT6 for example and a 4M baht unit was on the market at firesale 2M baht, it would be sold within a day. This is just not happening. A close friend of mine just sold a high 1 bedroom unit in VT6 with panoramic views for 11M baht to a Chinese Australian. He made a tiday profit as he bought the place when it was built. 

This comment is interesting.  So, in order to meet YOUR definition of a fire sale, the price must drop by 50%.  Is this correct?   

 

I have a question for you.  Say a condo had been on the market here for 2 years at 1 million baht.  Suggest a price that you think someone would buy it at?  Are you suggesting 500,000 baht?

 

The rest of this comment is irrelevant as it represents and out of line sale. 

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

 None of my friends regret their their decision to buy a condo, why? Because most of them have been living there for 20 years plus and the money they have saved by not renting has more than paid off.

 

You have only "saved money" if you can liquidate the asset.  Like I have said, good luck with that.  Nothing has been "saved" until the bricks and mortar has been turned back into cash.

 

I don't want to get into the whole if they rented, and kept the purchase amount invested in their home country, that the returns on the invested money would have paid for the rent in Pattaya, and then some.  Too many variables for that formula, but I am sure you know what I mean. 

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

Mostly from 65 to 85 y/o.

 

I thought as much.  Most have the idea they will die in the property and leave the property to the Thai partner.  There's probably quite a few deceased estates (farang) on the market already, or rented out. 

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

It's probably a sign of over supply but not of a bubble bursting which is what you suggest.

Pattaya / Thailand is a unique market due to many factors, but some are, foreigners can not own 100% freehold land, Thai's don't like second hand properties, the past property market "boil" that drove up prices to overvalued levels, property being used for money laundering by Thai's and farang, 49% (probably more) of the market being farang, exchange rates have an influence, and also the baby boomer generation found Thailand when property here was extremely cheap. 

 

It's for these reasons, and more, that the Pattaya property market should be given a little latitude.  You can't assess it in the same way as a western market.  You have to look into the grey areas.

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

A lot of Thais go into default, banks take possession and just just hang on to them indefinitely.

Like I said, abandoned. 

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

the unit next door to me was only ever occupied once. It's got nothing to do with lights or bubbles bursting. 

 As said, abandoned.

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

Any amount, it is of no consequence.

This goes back to the unique property market in Pattaya / Thailand.  However, I would suggest, at some stage, something has to give.

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

All I care about is the price I can buy in for.

Which was the attitude of the guys 20 years ago.  Many will pass away leaving the problem to their Thai partner. 

 

7 hours ago, bmanly said:

There is almost no fire sales, there has been no burst bubble,

But plenty of abandoned houses. Right?

 

As mentioned, the property market works a little different here.  I agree, many Thai's do not want to lose face by selling for a loss.  So, they just keep the property, and keep face.  The whole time the property sits on the market for years, at a price that sees them not take a loss.  It's like they are blind to market forces. 

 

So, in this sense, I agree that prices haven't gone down significantly, but the flip side to that is abandoned properties and nothing selling, all the time whilst new properties are being built and released.

 

I give it a little more latitude from the strict definition of a bubble burst by saying that with so many properties on the market, and / or abandoned, tends to show the bubble has burst, otherwise, we would be seeing healthy sales numbers.  I assumed other members on TV would also view the Pattaya property market outside of th western definition of a burst bubble.

 

Alas, I concede, you are correct, the strict definition of a burst bubble is a significant drop in sales prices, but as nothing is selling, I allowed for Thai culture, and the unique circumstances here surrounding foreign property ownership, to form my opinion that the bubble has burst due to nothing selling and many abandoned properties. 

 

Does this make sense?  I welcome your comment.  It's an interesting discussion.

 

MODS: I have made multiple quotes in the post.  Asking for some leeway for this particular post as I was replying to a member who also used multiple quotes. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Have you noticed how people always seem to sell at a profit, they ignore fees and and costs incurred spent on the place. No one likes to admit a loss

The older generation with the "rent is dead money" attitude is funny for me.

 

Perfectly normal attitude in a western country, where there is rule of law, and anyone can own a property, 100% freehold. 

 

However, for Thailand, the theory is not quite sound.  

 

It's not just that a pig farm or karaoke could open up next door to you a week after you buy, or, you can't 100% own the land.  There's more to consider than that. 

 

We are now seeing things such as visas and exchange issues see people with problems residing in their own property here. 

 

I'm guessing resale value was something never considered by these guys, and why should they.  However, being able to sell at all is now a big issue. 

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11 hours ago, newnative said:

I would say if you are worried about a glut of condos, if you're sleepless thinking about a property bubble, if you're having nightmares about buying a condo and losing some money, then there's always the option of renting.     

I will never buy a property in Thailand.  The rents are so cheap, there's just no need. 

 

The money I could use to buy a property here is in a non aggressive fund, making around 6%, back in my home country.  This subsides my rent here considerably, and I still have access to it at short notice. 

 

I have no property fees, taxes, maintenance and repairs to pay for, and I can leave tomorrow.  For some reason, the rent has not increased since I have been here, which is great.

 

Renting allows me piece of mind in relation to visa law changes, or any other unforeseen situation that may see me have to vacate Thailand, such as an illness or injury.  

 

As mentioned in another post, renting may not be such a good thing to do in the west, but a very sensible thing to do in Thailand.  

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29 minutes ago, Leaver said:

I will never buy a property in Thailand.  The rents are so cheap, there's just no need. 

 

The money I could use to buy a property here is in a non aggressive fund, making around 6%, back in my home country.  This subsides my rent here considerably, and I still have access to it at short notice. 

 

I have no property fees, taxes, maintenance and repairs to pay for, and I can leave tomorrow.  For some reason, the rent has not increased since I have been here, which is great.

 

Renting allows me piece of mind in relation to visa law changes, or any other unforeseen situation that may see me have to vacate Thailand, such as an illness or injury.  

 

As mentioned in another post, renting may not be such a good thing to do in the west, but a very sensible thing to do in Thailand.  

So, there you are.  Sorted.  As I've said many times, renting is a good option for some.

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5 minutes ago, newnative said:

So, there you are.  Sorted.  As I've said many times, renting is a good option for some.

I would say rent is a good option for many, not just some.

 

So, what's your prediction for the property market here?

 

Do you see the Chinese and Indians following in the steps of westerners?

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45 minutes ago, Leaver said:

So, what's your prediction for the property market here?

 

Do you see the Chinese and Indians following in the steps of westerners?

Just so happens the newly completed Arcadia Beach Resort project has a majority Chinese ownership.

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13 hours ago, fhickson said:

a lot of people buy them in pattaya and try to rent on airbnb. i dont recommend it.

 

thats not as easy as it looks. a couple bad reviews and your sunk, since there is so much competition and price keeps getting undercut. people watching 24/7 ready to undercut your price, even on specific dates.

 

also, you have to keep cleaning the rental each time for short term daily renters, etc. etc.

 

Not true. Airbnb is extremely profitable if done well. 

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8 minutes ago, Leaver said:

I would say rent is a good option for many, not just some.

 

So, what's your prediction for the property market here?

 

Do you see the Chinese and Indians following in the steps of westerners?

    The Chinese already are--remember my last 5 condo sales were to Chinese--at price points from 3.25MB to 10.5MB.  If you've been to a northern China city in winter, you'll understand why they want an escape from the smoggy, dreary, damp, cold, depressing winter days.  The recent, prolonged unrest in Hong Kong is likely bringing about some condo sales in Thailand.  Mainland China and Hong Kong find Thailand condo prices reasonable.  

    I don't know what will happen with the Indians and I make no predictions regarding the property market here.  I do think the EEC and all the recent building activity--Terminal 21, Central Marina revamp, Amari hotel additions, Ozo Hotel, Centre Point 1 and 2,  Mitt Hotel, Brighton, and all the many upgrades being done everywhere are positive signs.  

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The definition of a balanced market in the US is a 6 month supply of homes, based on how many sold the previous six months.  So 12000 means little without knowing how long of a supply that is, or even 12k of how many. My last trip to the land office was 15 months ago, and it wasn't dead by a long shot.  The big banks have people who are permanent fixtures in there, with their own big table in the back. I noticed a lot of the ghost buildings on the newly opened purple line, but they just weren't complete.  Kind of like some of the new train lines.. they have looked ready for a year. 12000, 12000, 12000.. make that 103 times mentioned here.. Haven't seen a single report of the publicly traded developers having difficulties, but there is some bluffing and gambling going on.  Not difficult to turn a condo into an apartment building or even a hotel, and vice versa. Might be a good time for a crackdown on airbnb.. like there is in many markets.. not fair to the condo residents and not fair to the hotels.  Kind of like the illegal teachers.. might help a few, but it harms the much bigger picture. 

 

I sold my place after four years in CM last year.  Moved into a rental for a three month minimum in Udon.  Didn't like the first floor being used as a hotel.. just more noise.. not a big problem.  Almost worthless cable TV.  Sub par WiFi.. but was free.  8 for electricity... which was lowered to 5, but a service charge was added... but no fans in the room.  Minimum water usage about double actual use. Most of the particle board stuff was warped and couldnt function properly, and the front office tries to get their finger in everything.. bottled water, cleaning, laundry.  And the fridge was one of those single door pieces of Chit, that needed frequent defrosting and uses twice the energy of my larger Toshiba inverter that was 6600 at Power Buy. The pluses were it was cheaper than an equivalent hotel, but by very little, she returned my deposit on the spot, and it was in their interest to maintain good security.  Ended up buying in a well functioning building on the edge of BKK. Not making more than 5% a year when all is said and done, but it is regular, steady, and it is like getting a monthly cash dividend tax free, while enjoying cheap, clean ac, fast Internet, and safe electrical, and even a hatari wall fan.. every room should have one.. 

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27 minutes ago, Lacrimas said:

Not true. Airbnb is extremely profitable if done well. 

    I doubt renting one condo on Airbnb is 'extremely profitable' after you deduct the monthly condo fee, the monthly water fee, the monthly electric fee, the monthly internet fee, the laundry fee, the maid fee, the Airbnb fee, the breakage and resupply fee, and the fee to pay someone to check in and out the illegal renters.  It likely can be profitable if you have 30 or 40 condos you are renting and can utilize economies of scale.  

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2 minutes ago, newnative said:

    I doubt renting one condo on Airbnb is 'extremely profitable' after you deduct the monthly condo fee, the monthly water fee, the monthly electric fee, the monthly internet fee, the laundry fee, the maid fee, the Airbnb fee, the breakage and resupply fee, and the fee to pay someone to check in and out the illegal renters.  It likely can be profitable if you have 30 or 40 condos you are renting and can utilize economies of scale.  

I agree, and even if you lived in the same building it would require quite a bit of time and illegal work.  It is not a punctual society.  How many backpackers are walking around with bedbugs and lice, or at least have then in their belongings. And some of the cooking people do in hotel type rooms is shocking.. A friend was saying, he wasn't that upset his whole house smelled like <deleted> after the Russian family left, but if only they had told him where they hid the dirty diapers. 

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22 minutes ago, newnative said:

    I doubt renting one condo on Airbnb is 'extremely profitable' after you deduct the monthly condo fee, the monthly water fee, the monthly electric fee, the monthly internet fee, the laundry fee, the maid fee, the Airbnb fee, the breakage and resupply fee, and the fee to pay someone to check in and out the illegal renters.  It likely can be profitable if you have 30 or 40 condos you are renting and can utilize economies of scale.  

I take it you never had a condo on air bnb . You don't know what you're talking about

1 water fee paid by tenant

2,Electric paid by tenant @ at 7baht/unit ( nice profit for the owner) This is the standard fee charged by a condotels and air bnb landlords

3 Maid fee paid by tenant

4. cleaning fee on exit paid by tenant  900 baht

4 why would i pay a laundry fee? I have a washing machine

5.breakage resupply fee???

6. I only rent monthly and just high season

 

Air bnb fee for 1 month is around 1800 Baht ( this is the only outgoing fee for the owner

 

Air BNB is extremely profitable. I get 45k/ month where it would be only 35k non air bnb plus electricity profit

 

Air BNB is a fantastic option for condo owners personally I wouldn't bother with nightly that would drive me nuts apart from being illegal

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I know a lady, who is a chartered accountant in Oz, like a CPA, and she taught me to use 40% of monthly rent for expenses, when calculating yields, and some even use 50%...but I think 40 is accurate for Thailand.  Many dispute this, and too many calculate yields on just the rent, which is bad accounting.  Vacancies, taxes, repairs, commissions, fees.. it does add up.  Using airbnb for monthly seems fine.  My neighbor did similar in Phoenix with a golf course condo.. made it all inclusive and furnished, double the normal rent, and said he didn't care if it was vacant during the death heat low season.. It cut potential maintenance calls in half.  Turns out a few stayed six months, and it even got booked in the summer months by people from Honeywell on business in the area.  One guy did use the fireplace without opening the vent.. But otherwise, he had a clientele that was mostly better than the yearly renters.  OTOH, I simply bought a hotel REIT at 18 us per share and get 12 cents per share monthly div, like clockwork.. without the lice and diapers. 

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14 minutes ago, madmen said:

I take it you never had a condo on air bnb . You don't know what you're talking about

1 water fee paid by tenant

2,Electric paid by tenant @ at 7baht/unit ( nice profit for the owner) This is the standard fee charged by a condotels and air bnb landlords

3 Maid fee paid by tenant

4. cleaning fee on exit paid by tenant  900 baht

4 why would i pay a laundry fee? I have a washing machine

5.breakage resupply fee???

6. I only rent monthly and just high season

 

Air bnb fee for 1 month is around 1800 Baht ( this is the only outgoing fee for the owner

 

Air BNB is extremely profitable. I get 45k/ month where it would be only 35k non air bnb plus electricity profit

 

Air BNB is a fantastic option for condo owners personally I wouldn't bother with nightly that would drive me nuts apart from being illegal

    Maybe with monthly rentals.  I think most Airbnb rentals are only for a few days; hence, the outcry against them.  With daily Airbnb rentals the owner pays the electric, water, cleaning, laundry, internet, condo fees, Airbnb fee,  and so on. 

     I saw a studio at Unixx listed for 486 baht a night on Airbnb.  Even rented every day, that brings in only 14580 baht a month. Condo fee is 50 baht a sqm; 22 sqm studio equals 1,100 baht a month. Figure electric and water maybe 1000 baht.  Have no idea what Airbnb charges but let's say 500 baht.   Maybe you're cheap and don't provide internet and do all the laundry, cleaning, and checking in yourself.  And, let's say nobody ever breaks or steals anything and nothing ever wears out. 

    So, subtracting the deductions leaves you with about 12,000 baht, assuming you get it rented every single day--highly doubtful with all the competition.  Seems like a lot of work to net at most 12,000 baht.  If I had just 1 condo to rent I would be looking for a long-term tenant, paying possibly less but for 12 steady months.  

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15 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

People always fail to mention, investments can go down in value as well as up, but on this forum everyone thinks they are Soros

Especially the ones that didn't actually have the 800k in a Thai bank, some pretty shrewd investors.. Seems like everyone of them was getti g double digit returns at home in mutual funds and they never went down or sustained a loss.  Quite a few no longer post on TVF, guess they are back home enjoying their millions in mums basement. 

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4 minutes ago, parafareno said:

and how much are transfer fee for 1100000 price condo?

Almost nothing now, but someone would have to pay about 35000 in taxes, depending on length of ownership. Assuming the moratorium on transfers under 3 million went into effect. There is a fee calculator.. Google it... It is on a Thai real estate website.. Normally transfer is 1% buyer, 1% seller.. And 1% of the amount of mortgage, which very rarely applies to farang. 

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26 minutes ago, parafareno said:

so electric is 8bht /(they charge me this at hotel where I stay)

and water is maybe 100 bht...etc....

and yearsly maintenance is maybe 100 usd, is that all? This is why I want to have a condo here....

 

Maintenance is often by square meter, per month.. I pay mine twice per year, 5000 x 2.  More like 3-500 us per year on a studio in a decent building.  Seen as low as 300 THB per month, but lots of deferred maintenance, no elevators.. You don't want too low or too high, and anything involving a lot of labor, upkeep is a potential problem.. like a fitness center.. looks great in the brochure.. but there is a trend in condos offering Ala carte plans, where even elevator use is optional.. makes the second floor a lot more interesting. 

 

With condo, you get your own elect account and pay close to 4 per unit.. so right there you are saving 1000 per month average or quite a bit more if you use an old ac frequently.  I run ac 24/7 for 1400 in the hottest or most humid months.  But in Patts, a sea breeze is worth its weight in gold.. But in places like Florida, with high humidity, you have to be really close to get the breeze, like a 100 meters.. 

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26 minutes ago, parafareno said:

so electric is 8bht /(they charge me this at hotel where I stay)

and water is maybe 100 bht...etc....

and yearsly maintenance is maybe 100 usd, is that all? This is why I want to have a condo here....

 

Also depends on your age, i think the younger you are the better case for buying. If you are 70 I don't think it's worth it money wise, easier and less stress to rent

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