Just got this from the US Embassy Services regarding the need for Insurance

[RPCVguy]

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Have you ever dealt with "our various embassy staff internationally?"  Wouldn't all US Embassy staff be found internationally and when would the State Dept get involved in medical savings accounts? Embassy staff are even forbidden to do signature guarantees on financial institution documents by order of the SEC.

Let me correct the phrasing... "Our" implied the collective expat community, of whatever nationality.
It is not any embassy or nation's responsibility or prerogative to meddle in how Thailand devises its laws, but they do it all the time. How? When? Where? It happens in the personal conversation at social gatherings of government officials. Ideas and concerns are exchanged between peers. Peers then have a choice of sharing those new ideas back within their own governments - whenever the idea seems of societal or political value.
As a few have commented on various threads regarding the insertion of the insurance requirement, there are likely key people of high political sway who own stock or hold directorships in these insurance companies, and they are set to extract huge profits from this law. Yet there are members of the hospitals and banking industry who could be allies for getting paid by the self insured, or holding more assets in their banks - by having the Thai set up Medical Savings Accounts.
Go back and look at the original post from May.  See https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1100759-mandatory-health-insurance-for-non-immigrant-o-a-retirement-visa-holders-likely-to-take-effect-in-july/?do=findComment&comment=14166271 where I wrote in part:
 

Quote

Even if a paper says they are covered to the limits listed on the policy, individuals and those hospitals providing treatment will quickly find claims refused - due to those exclusions.

How can Thai authorities assure availability of funds to cover the intended ฿400,000? An option that is nearly complete under current regulations would be to define that ฿400,000 of funds now required and proven available to be secured in an account that can only be drawn upon by a hospital (maybe via a pin accessed bank-card accessed only by hospitals.) EACH and EVERY account withdraw over the year could be documented with hospital receipts AND the account would need to be topped up again to ฿400,000 before going in to immigration to extend one's stay another year.

I certainly don't have access to share these thoughts with HiSo Thai in banking or hospitals, but likely one or two of the members of various embassies have such friends -  and their sharing of this idea could help the retirees of their nation - just for sharing it.

[Tounge Thaied]

9 hours ago, hereforgood said:

No it is incorrect as it has been reported insurance from your home country will not be considered or the guys that have tried and been rejected are not telling the truth and I doubt that is the case. They seem to be requiring Thai based ins companys and they are happy to show you a list

Foreign insurance can in fact be considered... The way I read the bottom of this form, the two directors names are printed in and then anyone who is "authorized" to sign documents within the insurance company signs it. I would suggest getting a translated copy of the relevant cabinet resolution, read it, explain it in a letter, include a copy to the insurance company and I would think that would go a long way to getting the form completed. 

https://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

Edited November 8, 2019 by Tounge Thaied

[Tounge Thaied]

3 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Apparently three directors need to sign it. Something tells me that if they were willing to help they could find three people in some office who are authorized to sign  on behalf of the company or Board.   When policies are issued they would need to be signed on behalf of the company/Board.

 

According to Sheryl (as far as I could tell) the signed certificate is only good for your original entry on a visa ... although I thought that acceptance was made by Thai embassies when issuing the O-A visa and indicating proof of insurance with a notation on the visa??

 

According to another poster he was able to renew his extension at CW without any mention of insurance, but then another poster went ballistic because that poster didn't mention whether his first entry was on an O-A or O visa.

 

So, as usual here at TV, we have an abundance of "experts" who all post conflicting information or at least conflicting interpretations of the same information... and of course a good sampling of posters who "reliably" report the experience of a friend.

 

 

The way I read the bottom of this form, the two directors names are printed in and then anyone who is "authorized" to sign documents within the insurance company signs it. I would suggest getting a translated copy of the relevant cabinet resolution, read it, explain it in a letter, include a copy to the insurance company and I would think that would go a long way to getting the form completed. 

https://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

[Dumbastheycome]

F the lot of it!  I am  up for a renewal of  extension of permission to  stay  come  next year.  I will  not  even attempt presentation of  insurance. If refused on basis  of I will  depart  and consider options.  I am here currently  on the  basis  of  retirement although  married  simply  because   for  both sides  has historically been the least  complex . If   now I am obliged  to  run in circles  then I will   simply   depart, 800,000 inclusive.

[sirineou]

18 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

F the lot of it!  I am  up for a renewal of  extension of permission to  stay  come  next year.  I will  not  even attempt presentation of  insurance. If refused on basis  of I will  depart  and consider options.  I am here currently  on the  basis  of  retirement although  married  simply  because   for  both sides  has historically been the least  complex . If   now I am obliged  to  run in circles  then I will   simply   depart, 800,000 inclusive.

Let me see if I understand this. You will go trough the inconvenience of moving to another country,  so that you would not endure the inconvenience and lower cost of applying for an extension to stay based on Marriage?

[ChouDoufu]

3 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

How would immigration know if the signatures on the form were made by three directors or three people one each, in the company mail room, the lunch lady in the staff dining room and the guy who tends the potted palms in the lobby.

 

Realistically, all policies the company writes have to be signed on behalf of the company and Board. Whether or not three of them would be willing to sign this document is questionable, but then you go back to plan A above.

 

 

 

 

quite simple, really, based on the procedure for verifying diplomas/degrees.

 

you get your form signed by three directors.

you take your form to a notary in the state/province where the company is headquartered to have it notarized.

you then take the notarized form to the department of state in the same state or province to have it stamped.

then you come back to thailand and have your certificate stamped at your nation's embassy in bangkok.

and then you can have the certificate translated into thai.

then you have the translation legalized at the ministry of silly walks.

and then finally you can apply for your extension, assuming you haven't died of auld age sometime during the process.

[Suradit69]

29 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

assuming you haven't died of auld age sometime during the process.

Nearly did that reading through all the steps.

 

Is all of this actually stipulated somewhere?

[SpokaneAl]

6 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

quite simple, really, based on the procedure for verifying diplomas/degrees.

 

you get your form signed by three directors.

you take your form to a notary in the state/province where the company is headquartered to have it notarized.

you then take the notarized form to the department of state in the same state or province to have it stamped.

then you come back to thailand and have your certificate stamped at your nation's embassy in bangkok.

and then you can have the certificate translated into thai.

then you have the translation legalized at the ministry of silly walks.

and then finally you can apply for your extension, assuming you haven't died of auld age sometime during the process.

That is not the way a notary works. The notary’s function is to verify the identification, to the best of his/her ability, of the person in front of him/her, signing the document. You can’t get a form signed and then later bring it to a notary to be notarized.

[simon43]

I believe that they'll be a downturn in the number of men in the 65 year old and up range coming to Thailand on O-A...

 

So the government policy seems to be working....

 

[soisanuk]

21 hours ago, jackdd said:

Actually they are not wrong, but they left out the crucial part which will cause lot's of confusion because most people would consider their insurance policy to be proof of having insurance.

They forgot to explain that to "proof" this you need to get the "foreign insurance certificate" signed by the directors of the company, which most insurance companies won't provide you.

As I read it, the US Embassy announcement is correct but incomplete.  Note the title: New Health Insurance Requirement for Long-Stay Visa Applicants

 

They are showing the requirements for applicants for the OA Visa which is done through Thai Embassies/Consulates in the applicant's country of residence  (Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs sets forth the requirements).

 

What they have omitted is Immigration rules that govern the entry into Thailand using the OA Visa (permission to stay) or for granting extensions of the permission to stay for those that entered using the OA Visa. 

 

Based on other Thaivisa threads with hundreds of posts, the Immigration rules do not permit foreign health insurance to be used.  If entering and the OA Visa issued by the Embassy/Consulate is annotated showing insurance coverage period, the permission to stay will be until the end of the coverage period. To go beyond that date or to be admitted if the date is already passed, it appears from reports that a policy from a company listed on the Thai General Insurance Association webpage will be required.  Likewise, to extend the permission to stay at an Immigration Office (initially or future extensions when the underlying Visa is OA, the insurance must be from a TGIA listed company.

 

In the case of those entering without the annotation, i.e., issued before the effective date of October 31 for requiring health insurance, reports are they are not receiving the usual one year permission to stay, but instead given a 30 day permission to stay and told to get the insurance from one of the TGIA webpage listed companies and go to a local Immigration Office to receive the up to one-year stay permitted by authorized when using an OA Visa.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by soisanuk

[alex8912]

16 hours ago, sirineou said:

Good luck finding the director of your insurance to sign the document. and in the document it states :

"; the insured person is insured in accordance with the Cabinet Resolution, dated 2 April B.E. 2562 (2019) "

How would the director of your insurance know the requirements of the Thai cabinet resolution dated 2 April B.E. 2562 (2019)  , and if their insurance coverage complies? 

And how would anyone in Thailand know the name or signature of that person?  I think people need to stop being OTT in literally interpreting all these silly requirements.  Take matters into your own HANDS!  Get it? 

[Kurtf]

17 hours ago, RPCVguy said:

I thought all of this had been resolved as NOT applying to extensions, then was shocked to get the embassy message shown in my email. So extensions up through October 31st only, then they apply the hook. ????
We can hope our various embassy staff internationally might yet offer an alternative - one I suggested last May.
Why not a THAI MEDICAL SAVINGS ACCOUNT?  



Banks would love it. Even hospitals would love it. Just set up a bank debit card that can only be paid out to a hospital.  As I wrote in this proposal (that got ignored) with healthcare payments insurance, “consumers may engage in riskier behavior, increasing the likelihood to need more healthcare, and/or simply purchase more healthcare than medically needed. In addition, providers may also supply more care than necessary. Such bad behavior changes increase the quantity of healthcare consumed. It is allocatively inefficient as too much of society’s resources are directed to healthcare, creating a welfare loss."

I'm 71 years of age, several of the dozen authorized companies already won't insure me, all promise far higher rates in my approaching future. The best rate spotted with the minimum coverage will already cost more per year than the ฿50,000 I spent during all of my first 12 years here total. Guaranteed there will be exclusions and such that does exactly what a private company wants - collect far more than they pay out.

See https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1100759-mandatory-health-insurance-for-non-immigrant-o-a-retirement-visa-holders-likely-to-take-effect-in-july/?do=findComment&comment=14166271

You can “propose” all you want but if the Thais can’t see a way for them to line their pockets with corruption money, it will never be accepted.

[andre47]

Has anybody already asked a Immigration Office, e.g. Bangkok or Pattaya? How are they understanding the new rules?

[Sonyboy]

18 hours ago, CALSinCM said:

A very good friend of mine who is in his early 70s has been coming here one or twice a year for extended periods on an O-A visa.  He comes for the same reasons a many single (and perhaps married) foreign guys do.  Inexpensive (until recently), female company, and exotic scenery (it ain't Kansas or Texas or anything like America).  My friend doesn't drink so I won't add that as an attraction.

With the news that O-A visas were going to require insurance, he relocated his itinerary to Cambodia almost immediately.  He began going there right after the initial news regarding insurance broke. 

His view is reflective of what will probably become a common view for guys 65 and up:  Why purchase an insurance policy that is over-priced for the minuscule amount of benefits paid and that is so packed with exclusions for pre-existing conditions and age related conditions including moratoriums on most pathologies that affect aging people that the policy is essentially useless - especially if you can self-insure.  And he has the money to self-insure.
"But, you really, really need insurance because if you get sick you may end up with a 1 or 2 million THB bill."  Really?  And what good is an insurance policy that doesn't cover that 1 or 2 million THB bill?  Seriously!

So my friend said the heck with it (I can't print what he really said) and now splits his time between Cambodia and the US. 

I believe that they'll be a downturn in the number of men in the 65 year old and up range coming to Thailand on O-A, which is sort of a harbinger of what's to come if suddenly the Non-O expats find themselves saddled with having to obtain worthless, expensive mandatory insurance for the sole purpose of 'having the privilege' to reside in Thailand. 

"Good riddance losers!"  Yeah, whatever.  Thailand isn't the only game in town and in short order nor will it be the best imho.

So true,and the Non-'O' visa part probably about to follow on,and hospitals insurance is like a car insurance claim,a two tier payment,for the UK anyway,if you have full insurance cover the claim get's heavily 'padded' way above an upfront 'cash payment' bill,so the requirement for a medical insurance if used would be heavily padded leaving you with a big bill anyway unless it is a very expensive top insurance cover,if older retiree's can even get cover,but,I suppose some will be happy with it knowing they will get their visa,plus many more doing as you say,move to other near country's more foreigner friendly.

[yimlitnoy]

23 hours ago, hereforgood said:

No it is incorrect as it has been reported insurance from your home country will not be considered or the guys that have tried and been rejected are not telling the truth and I doubt that is the case. They seem to be requiring Thai based ins companys and they are happy to show you a list

Please read:  will need to download the Overseas Insurance Certificate and have it completed, signed, and stamped by their insurance company if using a non-Thai insurance policy to qualify.

[Sheryl]

17 hours ago, SometimezaGreatNotion said:

I applied for new spouse visa Oct. 28 at Chiang Mai immigration (had retirement visa last year). There was no mention of insurance. It was surprisingly easy (and don't think it was due to the officer being a cousin of my wife, but maybe). The immigration team came to my wife's house two days later, took photos and verified with neighbor, etc., also easy. 

 

Who knows, when I come to pick up my visa later this month maybe they will demand I show proof of insurance. It would be a deal-breaker for me - would have to expend so much energy and money to settle somewhere else.

 

I checked out some of the major farang insurers, and no way am I going to pay $300 a month, which was about the minimum I found.

 

There is no insurance requirement for extensions of stay based on marriage to a Thia.

[wwest5829]

14 hours ago, sirineou said:

Let me see if I understand this. You will go trough the inconvenience of moving to another country,  so that you would not endure the inconvenience and lower cost of applying for an extension to stay based on Marriage?

Certainly facing this, my first action will be to change from an O-A Visa. Personally, my last action would be leaving to a more welcoming country. But I do understand this poster's position.

[wwest5829]

51 minutes ago, Sonyboy said:

So true,and the Non-'O' visa part probably about to follow on,and hospitals insurance is like a car insurance claim,a two tier payment,for the UK anyway,if you have full insurance cover the claim get's heavily 'padded' way above an upfront 'cash payment' bill,so the requirement for a medical insurance if used would be heavily padded leaving you with a big bill anyway unless it is a very expensive top insurance cover,if older retiree's can even get cover,but,I suppose some will be happy with it knowing they will get their visa,plus many more doing as you say,move to other near country's more foreigner friendly.

Hmmm, not my experience with billing. 411,000 baht bill was presented (heart attack, TIA), then reduced for my "old age" discount, then bill sent to my US insurance company (which pays up to 5000 USD annually overseas), then I paid the remainder from personal funds (ouch!).

[yimlitnoy]

19 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Certainly facing this, my first action will be to change from an O-A Visa. Personally, my last action would be leaving to a more welcoming country. But I do understand this poster's position.

The inconvenience is, at my age 69. more than US$3000 per year for an almost worthless insurance to stay in Thailand...  I am open to Cambodia, India and Vietnam for that small inconvenience and stay in an apartment hotel.

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Certainly facing this, my first action will be to change from an O-A Visa. Personally, my last action would be leaving to a more welcoming country. But I do understand this poster's position.

I also understand the frustration. There seems to be something new required every day. But IMO at this point the path of least resistance  if marries would be an Non Imm-0 based on marriage.  And certainly explore other options. I am looking into activating Greek citizenship for which I qualify. If not move there, (which I am thinking of)  at least the Greek embassy still issues income certificate letters.

[sirineou]

5 hours ago, alex8912 said:

And how would anyone in Thailand know the name or signature of that person?  I think people need to stop being OTT in literally interpreting all these silly requirements.  Take matters into your own HANDS!  Get it? 

 Got it.

I actually can sense a business opportunity here.

Edited November 9, 2019 by sirineou

[lexilis]

I presume that if you are retired and are covered by the Thai Social Security system (which covers everything) that no other insurance is required. Anybody know anything different? 

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, lexilis said:

I presume that if you are retired and are covered by the Thai Social Security system (which covers everything) that no other insurance is required. Anybody know anything different? 

There is at present no exception  for people  covered by Thai SS. That is one of many, many flaws on this new policy.

 

 

[WhatupThailand]

So much to do over nothing.

So Many Opinions whether correct or not, Does not matter, because it will change tomorrow.

 

The Forever moving Shell Game will keep any REAL SOLUTIONS, from ever being accepted.

Because a real solution does not line the Pockets of Mr Big.

 

If the purpose was to really cover any Hospital Lose, they would simply allow ALL LONG STAY,

OR Tourist, to Join the Thai Social Security Program  during their stay in Thailand.

This Program is already set up, and would only need an addition of a few tiers, to cover all.

 

Just like the Bank BS, where the money is supposed to show the ability to support yourself

while in Thailand, BUT you can not use it to do that, cause it has to be locked in a Bank.

 

Does any one Believe any of this Nonsense, well maybe some that are sitting in their ivory tower,

completely detached from reality, devising ways to fatten their wallets.

 

So while common people with common sense, try to get past the smoke and mirrors,

the insanity runs full steam ahead, so have another bowl of noodles and pick a shell.

 

[Lacrimas]

21 hours ago, SometimezaGreatNotion said:

I applied for new spouse visa Oct. 28 at Chiang Mai immigration (had retirement visa last year). There was no mention of insurance. It was surprisingly easy (and don't think it was due to the officer being a cousin of my wife, but maybe). The immigration team came to my wife's house two days later, took photos and verified with neighbor, etc., also easy. 

 

Who knows, when I come to pick up my visa later this month maybe they will demand I show proof of insurance. It would be a deal-breaker for me - would have to expend so much energy and money to settle somewhere else.

 

I checked out some of the major farang insurers, and no way am I going to pay $300 a month, which was about the minimum I found.

Spouse visa's don't require any insurance

[Wake Up]

On 11/7/2019 at 11:35 PM, LivinLOS said:

Your out of date..

 

All extensions coming from an original OA visa, however old, DO require insurance. 

Says who?  I have read the police order like I am sure you have and no where does it state what you are stating as fact. Do you know anyone at CW that entered Thailand on an old O-A nonimmigrant visa that has been required to produce insurance for their extension of stay based on retirement? If what you said was fact from CW you would have people on thai forums in the hundreds telling us the true facts and many would not get an extension of stay. You may be worried and upset but don’t state facts that are simply not true. 

[Wake Up]

On 11/8/2019 at 5:00 AM, payanak said:

I just renewed my extension of stay based on retirement yesterday (Nov, 7) at Chaeng Watana.  There was NO mention of any need for medical insurance.  This process was an 8 hour ordeal, however.  Standing room only pretty much all day. 

Thank you for sharing the truth and not speculation. ????????????????????????????????????

[Wake Up]

On 11/8/2019 at 4:17 AM, Sheryl said:

They are wrong re US policies being accepted. Only for the first entry and only if your insurer will sign a form worded such that no fiteign insurer can possibly sign it.

 

I enailed them accordingly and received an intetesting response I reported on elsewhere.

 

As to need for it with extensions, the dust is yet to settle but thus far most people seem to being told it is required even those who have already done many,many extensions.

 

Sheryl 

 

I respect you and you have really helped me in the past with many important issues. But I know expats in Bangkok that have gotten extensions of stay at CW since November 1 and entered Thailand years ago on an O-A non immigrant visa.  None of them were asked for health insurance to get their extension of stay at CW. Are there any verifiable reports of CW requiring health insurance for extensions of stay when the expat entered Thailand on an old expired O-A non immigrant visa?  

[Wake Up]

On 11/8/2019 at 7:11 AM, LivinLOS said:

I politely asked for that, explaining all reports so far were either incorrect or trolling and got a indignant refusal.. 

 

Even if it turns out to be correct, immigration inconsistency isnt exactly unusual. The order clearly states it includes extensions of stay (for OA visa generated permissions of stay). 

Simply not true. Why do you post this “fact” and red underline the police order that does not support your “facts”. You are wrong and just causing problems for people who believe you. 

[Sheryl]

24 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

Sheryl 

 

I respect you and you have really helped me in the past with many important issues. But I know expats in Bangkok that have gotten extensions of stay at CW since November 1 and entered Thailand years ago on an O-A non immigrant visa.  None of them were asked for health insurance to get their extension of stay at CW. Are there any verifiable reports of CW requiring health insurance for extensions of stay when the expat entered Thailand on an old expired O-A non immigrant visa?  

There are very reliable reports from multiple members being told by CW that they would be required to have insurance to get their extensions. These people were asking in advance, not actually extending at that time. One eent so far ad to consult a senior officer.  The most recent such was on 6 November.

 

On what date exactly did these people get their extensions? (Wondering if it is a change subsequent to the earlier reports we got -- which would be very good news). And are you certain their original visa was OA and not O? People often confuse these.