Given latest (apparently) squeeze on OA extensions I'm reviewing options

[Destiny1990]

And another one bites the dust !

[4MyEgo]

17 hours ago, gavlar said:

I should state I absolutely believe in the need for insurance ....but god help those older full time expats with preconditions who it would seem (and their families) are about to be shafted.

I think a lot of people are getting ahead of themselves when it comes to any future health insurance changes for retirees and those married to a Thai.

 

The way I see it is, the government recently put in changes with regard to the retirement extension, i.e. as usual, have your 800,000 in the bank 3 months beforehand, but now you cannot touch 400,000 of it, from my understanding for 6 months, that said, it appears that they have done this to show that if anyone gets ill, it doesn't fall back on the Thai government, so one has to have enough money in the bank to cover oneself for hospital treatment. What most haven't seen is that, no one is being forced to have an insurance policy of any sort and those too old to get cover, would have 400,000 in the bank for 6 months, in the event of being hospitalised. So in essence, everyone is covered, self insured so to speak.

 

A) You comply with the amended regulation, i.e. have the usual 800,000 in the bank, keep 400,000 in it for 6 months in case you get sick so you can cover the hospital cost, or part thereof it, and you get to stay in Thailand.

 

B) What A shows us that you do not lose any money on purchasing any insurance policy, i.e. if you can get one and we know the older ones cannot get cover, so you get to use the 400,000 baht after 6 months, whereas if it was the other way around, it would have GONE to the insurance company if they enforced it, i.e. that retirees had to get an insurance policy, in other words, it's a win/win.

 

The above said, were this might change is when those who don't have the money and use an agent, who then need hospital treatment and cannot pay the bills because the money was only put in to show immigration that the farang had the money, then was taken out straight afterwards, will in no doubt shine a loophole on this and the government might say, ok, we are now enforcing that you take out private health cover which could and would have an impact on everyone, in particular, those too old to get cover, those without the money to stay in the country, and the corrupt immigration officials, and agents, so it would be a wide ranging sword cutting off a lot of heads.

 

C) With regard to the marriage extension, all I can see at worst case scenario is that they increase the 400,000 in the bank to equal the retirement extension, i.e. 800,000, again no insurance policy required.

 

So to sum this up, what I believe the Thai government have done is forced farangs to cover themselves, sort of self insuring by having 400,000 in the bank for 6 months, me personally, I don't think its a bad thing, i.e. it takes the pressure off of the Thai government who in the end would have to foot the bill, and are making sure that farangs have enough money in the bank in case of an emergency IMO.  

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by 4MyEgo

[emptypockets]

18 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Yep - using marriage is an option now for long term stays  - but it may not be in the future.  And yes - the Thai health insurance requirement is a scam - just like forcing Expats to put money into a Thai bank account is also a scam. 

 

I believe that as long as you dont do more than 3 Tourist visits for 2 months at a time and all seperated by a few months in one year you should be OK. So a 12 month METV seems the way to go. They cracked down on those using METVs who did border runs every 2 months so they could stay for long periods.  Silly buggers - all they had to do was introduce a rule that says METVs can only be used 3 times in any 12 month period.

 

How is any of that a scam? If you don't want the product don't buy it. A scam implies trickery, I see none in this issue.

No scam involved at all.

[rwill]

Has anyone been asked to show proof of insurance for an extension???

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

the Thai government have done is forced farangs to cover themselves, sort of self insuring by having 400,000 in the bank for 6 months

Not every farang, have that 400000 in a Thai bank. 

Many, like myself, were and are still obtaining an extension based on income in homeland. 

Providing one is not American, Australian, British. 

 

[thinktoomuch]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

I think a lot of people are getting ahead of themselves when it comes to any future health insurance changes for retirees and those married to a Thai.

 

The way I see it is, the government recently put in changes with regard to the retirement extension, i.e. as usual, have your 800,000 in the bank 3 months beforehand, but now you cannot touch 400,000 of it, from my understanding for 6 months, that said, it appears that they have done this to show that if anyone gets ill, it doesn't fall back on the Thai government, so one has to have enough money in the bank to cover oneself for hospital treatment.

You need 800,000 in the bank for 5 months and 400,000 in the bank for the remaining 7 months, although some immigration offices may want a 6 and 6 split, or an income of 65,000 per month or a combination of money in the bank and income.

 

I think that people are worried that these changes will come to other visa classes because: 

 

1) Government officials are publicly saying that they want anyone over 50 on a long stay visa to have insurance.

 

2) Anyone getting an O-A visa for the purposes of retirement IS now forced to have insurance. 

 

3) People now on O-A visas who later get a retirement extension are required to have both the money in the bank AND insurance (as per the new immigration orders).

 

4) We have multiple immigration offices (including Division 1) saying that anyone with an O-A visa who then moves to a retirement extension will have to have insurance (as per the new immigration orders).

 

5) In addition we have multiple immigration offices saying that even people who are already on a retirement extension based on an O-A visa will have to get insurance **BUT** I have yet to see reports of this happening.

 

So the question in many people's minds is, why do all this if there is an easy out? Why do all this for so few people (just O-A visa holders) if the intention is not to expand it to as many people as possible?

 

If points (3, 4 and 5) didn't exist then I think that far fewer people would be worried since they would assume that being required to keep money in the bank in Thailand was the backstop should someone not have not have insurance or the free funds to pay for any treatment they were to receive in Thailand.

 

This may well be a pilot project (and I believe I read somewhere that it was just that) for making sure as many people over 50 as possible who are on long stay visas have insurance.

 

When I look at other long stay visa classes, with the exception of tourist visas, I see insurance requirements for most, if not all of them.

 

So people on other extensions to stay are right to be worried, especially since this change, which upends some people's lives, was announced with something like 20 days notice.

 

There may be changes that come out of this "pilot" such as recognising foreign insurance beyond the first year and foreign perpetual insurance, etc, which could lead to the creation of appropriate better priced products by foreign companies. We shall see.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by thinktoomuch

[4MyEgo]

 

1 hour ago, thinktoomuch said:

There may be changes that come out of this "pilot" such as recognising foreign insurance beyond the first year and foreign perpetual insurance, etc, which could lead to the creation of appropriate better priced products by foreign companies. We shall see.

Like I said, "I think a lot of people are getting ahead of themselves when it comes to any future health insurance changes for retirees and those married to a Thai".

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

Not every farang, have that 400000 in a Thai bank. 

Many, like myself, were and are still obtaining an extension based on income in homeland. 

Providing one is not American, Australian, British. 

 

How would you pay for any medical bills if you were hospitalised ?

[travelerjim]

21 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

i would have thought 3x60 day tourist visas is the way to go.

 

If it turns out it's a problem, reassess then

Will not work in todays immigration clampdown...

[AlfHuy]

18 hours ago, thinktoomuch said:

As others have said, you should be able to use your re-entry permit without any issues since this is an existing permission to stay. In fact the new immigration orders specifically stated that they did not affect existing permissions to stay. Unfortunately though no one can say for sure how you will actually be treated at the border.

 

It seems like you have until March next year to decide what to do. I suggest returning as planned in January. If you do have an issue at the boarder ask for a 30-day stamp, then see if you can get that extended at your local immigration office.

 

Keep following the developments. Things will probably change and may eventually be handled at entry points in as consistent a manner as immigration handles anything else. Also Sheryl has previously posted some information from the US embassy that may affect the O-A visa insurance issue. 

 

If things don't look good for the O-A visa you should be able to change to a single entry Non Immigrant O visa when you are back in the UK (or in a neighbouring country). You can then extend this with a retirement extension and get back on that train and see where it takes you.

 

If you are registered as the parent of the Thai child at that time you will have more options.

 

Lastly, I know that you weren't asking about this and it may possibly be unwelcome advice so I will speak for myself. I know that if I were the parent of a child I would not want that child educated in the Thai system. So it would either have to be a really good International School (are there any in Thailand?) or back to the UK to a good school. This is something I would want to factor into my future plans.

 

I hope everything works out for you.

There are brilliant International schools.

 

Bangkok Patana

NIST

ISB

 

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I think a lot of people are getting ahead of themselves when it comes to any future health insurance changes for retirees and those married to a Thai.

 

The way I see it is, the government recently put in changes with regard to the retirement extension, i.e. as usual, have your 800,000 in the bank 3 months beforehand, but now you cannot touch 400,000 of it, from my understanding for 6 months, that said, it appears that they have done this to show that if anyone gets ill, it doesn't fall back on the Thai government, so one has to have enough money in the bank to cover oneself for hospital treatment. What most haven't seen is that, no one is being forced to have an insurance policy of any sort and those too old to get cover, would have 400,000 in the bank for 6 months, in the event of being hospitalised. So in essence, everyone is covered, self insured so to speak.

 

A) You comply with the amended regulation, i.e. have the usual 800,000 in the bank, keep 400,000 in it for 6 months in case you get sick so you can cover the hospital cost, or part thereof it, and you get to stay in Thailand.

 

B) What A shows us that you do not lose any money on purchasing any insurance policy, i.e. if you can get one and we know the older ones cannot get cover, so you get to use the 400,000 baht after 6 months, whereas if it was the other way around, it would have GONE to the insurance company if they enforced it, i.e. that retirees had to get an insurance policy, in other words, it's a win/win.

 

The above said, were this might change is when those who don't have the money and use an agent, who then need hospital treatment and cannot pay the bills because the money was only put in to show immigration that the farang had the money, then was taken out straight afterwards, will in no doubt shine a loophole on this and the government might say, ok, we are now enforcing that you take out private health cover which could and would have an impact on everyone, in particular, those too old to get cover, those without the money to stay in the country, and the corrupt immigration officials, and agents, so it would be a wide ranging sword cutting off a lot of heads.

 

C) With regard to the marriage extension, all I can see at worst case scenario is that they increase the 400,000 in the bank to equal the retirement extension, i.e. 800,000, again no insurance policy required.

 

So to sum this up, what I believe the Thai government have done is forced farangs to cover themselves, sort of self insuring by having 400,000 in the bank for 6 months, me personally, I don't think its a bad thing, i.e. it takes the pressure off of the Thai government who in the end would have to foot the bill, and are making sure that farangs have enough money in the bank in case of an emergency IMO.  

 

The logic of this fall apart when you consider the new OX rules where you need 3 million in the bank, AND you need insurance. 

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

How would you pay for any medical bills if you were hospitalised 

With money, or using my Credit card. 

It is not because I don't need to have money on a Thai bankbook to get an extension, that I don't have money. 

[UKresonant]

21 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Are you the parent of the child you mentioned. If yes you can get non-o visas and extension based upon being his father.

Only 400k baht in the bank is needed or 40k baht of income. 

Could I ask...

Do they do them based on a child, more quickly than they would process a marriage extension i.e. less than say 88 days? ( and would they do it, even if you were married? with a multi- re-entry permit)

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, rwill said:

Has anyone been asked to show proof of insurance for an extension???

Yes.. Jomtien, Phuket, Chiang Mai, Yasithorn, Korat, Khon Khen, CW etc.. 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

With money, or using my Credit card. 

It is not because I don't need to have money on a Thai bankbook to get an extension, that I don't have money. 

I think you would have to agree that in the eyes of immigration, without money in a Thai bank account, your a liability, i.e. one size fits all unfortunately.

[saengd]

Just now, 4MyEgo said:

I think you would have to agree that in the eyes of immigration, without money in a Thai bank account, your a liability, i.e. one size fits all unfortunately.

And what about those of us that do have money in the bank and have held several million in an account for over fifteen years, even with money in the bank we're still a liability and are being squeezed? This is not about money in the bank, if it was I wouldn't need to contemplate buying a worthless insurance product, this is about health insurance, plain and simple.

[oznomad]

8 minutes ago, saengd said:

This is not about money in the bank, if it was I wouldn't need to contemplate buying a worthless insurance product, this is about health insurance, plain and simple.

If it was really about health insurance they would provide decent local options, as well as allowing offshore companies (without the 2 directors signatures crapola), instead of 'a worthless insurance product'.

 

 

[saengd]

2 minutes ago, oznomad said:

If it was really about health insurance they would provide decent local options, as well as allowing offshore companies (without the 2 directors signatures crapola), instead of 'a worthless insurance product'.

 

 

I've held 4 mill. Baht in UOB for fifteen years and you tell me this is about money in the bank, really!

 

And why would they provide options that meet your definition of decent, all they are concerned about is that you have health insurance, not the quality of it.

Edited November 11, 2019 by saengd

[4MyEgo]

53 minutes ago, saengd said:

And what about those of us that do have money in the bank and have held several million in an account for over fifteen years

Small money to part with for a year in Thailand, besides, if you have "millions" in the bank, you should be smart enough to re-coupe the insurance money through investments, IMO 

[saengd]

Just now, 4MyEgo said:

Small money to part with for a year in Thailand, besides, if you have "millions" in the bank, you should be smart enough to re-coupe the insurance money through investments, IMO 

Ridiculous! So now increased investments becomes a core part of the retirement visa cycle also, along side health insurance, I must now increase my total annual investment return by a few percent to compensate for the loss on health insurance, I mean really!

 

And why should I have to spend upwards of THB 100k per year on insurance I don't want, don't need and can't use. I'm 70 years old and pre-existing conditions invalidate most of any new insurance product. Or perhaps you feel I should be charitable and prepared to donate 100k + each year to this worthy cause!

[luckyluke]

59 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I think you would have to agree that in the eyes of immigration, without money in a Thai bank account, your a liability, i.e. one size fits all unfortunately.

Maybe,

 

if Immigration really want that everybody park money in a Thai bankaccount, they would suppress the possibility to get an extension based on income in homeland ( with no obligation to park any money in a Thai bankaccount, no obligation to transfer monthly at least 65000 ThB, if one doesn't want to). 

 

Of course this can be inplemented tomorrow. 

 

As can 400 become 500000, or 800000 one million, or whatever. 

 

After all T.i.T..

[GeorgeCross]

18 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Small money to part with for a year in Thailand, besides, if you have "millions" in the bank, you should be smart enough to re-coupe the insurance money through investments, IMO 

 

its funny i don't remember that being in the brochure.. "come to beautiful thailand, bring a few million and rather than sit by the pool enjoying a mai tai, spend your days working out how to pay for all the stupid <deleted> we're going to charge you for"

 

nah doesn't have the same ring to it 

 

 

[saengd]

6 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

its funny i don't remember that being in the brochure.. "come to beautiful thailand, bring a few million and rather than sit by the pool enjoying a mai tai, spend your days working out how to pay for all the stupid <deleted> we're going to charge you for"

 

nah doesn't have the same ring to it 

 

 

It's a new slant on dual pricing, we charge you twice as much and you still get nothing in return. Imagine rocking up to a national park, kuhn Thai, 40 baht, you farang, 400 baht, you pay now.....solly, park now closed, no refund.

[4MyEgo]

48 minutes ago, saengd said:

I'm 70 years old and pre-existing conditions invalidate most of any new insurance product.

If that's the case, I would think you cannot get insured, and if that is the case, I have no answers for you.

[saengd]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

If that's the case, I would think you cannot get insured, and if that is the case, I have no answers for you.

You missed the point, I am in a position to self finance my health care, I don't want to be insured and have no need to be so, all my medical bills will be fully paid. I can get a policy with Pacific Cross that will exclude most things and effectively be worthless, but it will allow me to extend my visa.

[4MyEgo]

39 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

its funny i don't remember that being in the brochure.. "come to beautiful thailand, bring a few million and rather than sit by the pool enjoying a mai tai, spend your days working out how to pay for all the stupid <deleted> we're going to charge you for"

 

nah doesn't have the same ring to it 

 

 

Regardless, governments everywhere in the world can change immigration rules, more so in Thailand, so if your not prepared for the change or implementation regardless of what we all think, and in particular are not prepared to part with those funds for whatever reason, we have options to leave.

 

I have private health insurance for the family and myself with a pre-existing condition, it costs me 110,000 baht a year, money down the drain some say, sure, but you pay for it for peace of mind, it is not a visa requirement for me, and I am fortunate enough to be under 60, just to get it and always look at recouping it through investments.

 

Some not so fortunate, but we all make our beds, as for those to old to get insurance, one would think that immigration would be relaxed if funds were in an account in Thailand, but hey, I am not their advisor and I don't make up the rules, it is what it is, fair or unfair, we all have choices, no one in Thailand gives a rats and if you don't have a plan B, well your not a planner IMO.

[4MyEgo]

3 minutes ago, saengd said:

You missed the point, I am in a position to self finance my health care, I don't want to be insured and have no need to be so, all my medical bills will be fully paid. I can get a policy with Pacific Cross that will exclude most things and effectively be worthless, but it will allow me to extend my visa.

No point missed by me, perhaps the one size fits all policy by immigration missed the point as its easier to maintain a policy that they want all to fit into, and if it costs you to be insured, then their policy is working, unfortunately for you and others who can self insure get the raw end of the deal, but hey, this is Thailand, expect the unexpected and if your looking for things to work the way they would back home, forget it, as commonsense seldom prevails here due to a loss of face clause in just about everything.

[GeorgeCross]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Regardless, governments everywhere in the world can change immigration rules, more so in Thailand, so if your not prepared for the change or implementation regardless of what we all think, and in particular are not prepared to part with those funds for whatever reason, we have options to leave.

 

I have private health insurance for the family and myself with a pre-existing condition, it costs me 110,000 baht a year, money down the drain some say, sure, but you pay for it for peace of mind, it is not a visa requirement for me, and I am fortunate enough to be under 60, just to get it and always look at recouping it through investments.

 

Some not so fortunate, but we all make our beds, as for those to old to get insurance, one would think that immigration would be relaxed if funds were in an account in Thailand, but hey, I am not their advisor and I don't make up the rules, it is what it is, fair or unfair, we all have choices, no one in Thailand gives a rats and if you don't have a plan B, well your not a planner IMO.

 

i totally agree, i have insurance too and at my age its a pittance.

 

problem is it definitely won't be a pittance if i live to 85 or more. my coverage then will be north of 350K per year according to pacific cross.

 

and i'll be 85! not sure i'll be so good with the "investments" then lol

 

 

[tgeezer]

12 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

i totally agree, i have insurance too and at my age its a pittance.

 

problem is it definitely won't be a pittance if i live to 85 or more. my coverage then will be north of 350K per year according to pacific cross.

 

and i'll be 85! not sure i'll be so good with the "investments" then lol

 

 

Gosh the only people who think it worth living to 85 and now 84! 

[tgeezer]

As an adult I think that I should be allowed to make up my own mind about what provisions I make for my future. At 74 it has worked so far. What is so annoying is that individual IOs are allowed to make decisions about my future when they are intellectually unfitted for that task.  

The Big Cheese specified A-O visas and since he did that and not some other condition like having red hair, we have to assume that there is something special about A-O visas that make insurance necessary. That Immigration Offices are allowed to replace the specificity of being here under the conditions of an A-O visa and replace it with having had an A-O visa stamped in your passport at some point in the past is galling to say the least.