Enki Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Assurancetourix said: typically you do not know anything about the subject.. Laziness !! I would like to see you dry the rice on a county road in Thailand. You would understand very quickly that it is a very hard job. In addition, rice is not laid directly on the road but on a blue net so as not to lose it . If peasants dry their rice on the road, it is because they have no place to do it elsewhere. When they have this place, they do it on the football fields of the schools or on the big fairgrounds that are sometimes cemented. Do you think that drying rice on earth or grass is more "authentic" or less messy than on a road made of cement or bitumen? Last thing ; I learned and I always have it in mind that when driving you MUST adapt to the weather conditions and the aleas of the road. So if a part of the road is occupied by rice drying, I slow down and if necessary I stop to let the vehicle that is already engaged. It would still be necessary for the Thai people to go to the driving school to learn the rules of road traffic. Yeah, it is amazing how silly people are in threads regarding "how it is done in Thailand". I guess all the negative posters here think the rice was on a main road ... two or four lanes in each direction, just dropped by a truck, making everything "slippery". Obviously the two drivers had no chance at all to avoid the accident ???? The experts here who live in 4 million TBH Bangkok Condo who never saw the countryside. Actually I should spare my breath to comment on them, and just tag everything with a laughing "smiley". It is breathtaking ignorant what you see written by "Thailand experts" here in the forum or e.g. in forums like "Bangok Expats" on facebook. If I see stupid posts like the guy who is afraid of chemicals and does not know that "poor farmers" are to poor to even buy chemical (and does not know if they lose the harvest - because they can not spray chemicals - the government refunds them, because Thailand is basically a communist country) and believes the "uneconomic farmers" should be deprived from their land so that a few elite more economic farmers can farm all the land, makes me simply vomit. Oh, that was a long german style sentence, I'm sorry. It is a damn good thing that in a country like Thailand the "family" always has enough rice to feed everyone, and government aid - based on taxes or other fees - is only needed in rare cases. He wants to transform Thailand into a robber baron capitalizm: have no money for rice, have no own rice, have no own field? Starve, die if you must, but don't beg for tax payer money .... I really wonder why people travel the world and don't realize that THEIR OWN SYSTEM AT HOME is failing, and that pseudo democratic, half communist, low tax, simple private capitalism, monarchy - at least under king Rama IX - : is running much better than their "imaginary first world" country is. Every time I see a rant about the school system, I really wonder the same ... at least here kids can go to school on their own bike, are not searched for guns at the entrance, have food in the school, have a foreign language from grade one etc. p.p. and I don't think Thailand ever had a school shooting, but alas: it is obviously a country that needs help from other awesome countries ... (My wife is teacher in school ... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred white Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 6 hours ago, Assurancetourix said: typically you do not know anything about the subject.. Laziness !! I would like to see you dry the rice on a county road in Thailand. You would understand very quickly that it is a very hard job. In addition, rice is not laid directly on the road but on a blue net so as not to lose it . If peasants dry their rice on the road, it is because they have no place to do it elsewhere. When they have this place, they do it on the football fields of the schools or on the big fairgrounds that are sometimes cemented. Do you think that drying rice on earth or grass is more "authentic" or less messy than on a road made of cement or bitumen? Last thing ; I learned and I always have it in mind that when driving you MUST adapt to the weather conditions and the aleas of the road. So if a part of the road is occupied by rice drying, I slow down and if necessary I stop to let the vehicle that is already engaged. It would still be necessary for the Thai people to go to the driving school to learn the rules of road traffic. I see farmers drying their rice in their yards around here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PremiumLane Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 On 11/15/2019 at 7:23 AM, robblok said: Farmers such lovely people if they dont poison you with chemicals then they kill you with other selfish actions. I wonder were defenders of farmers like @farmerjo are they are so vocal on farmers rights but fail to see how selfish farmers are. Believing that farmermers will use chemicals properly and care for consumers while this is yet an other example of how its money first and others have to live with the concequences. In a country like Thailand bans and harsh punishment are the only way to go. Just like how street vendors encrouch more and more leaving no room for people to walk. If only they respected others then bans were not needed and people self regulated but its all about maximizing profit at the expense of others. I understand the need to dry rice but then pay for a place to do so or find a safer free place. Its things like this that led me to believe that farmers wont use chemicals responsible. (And of course the results of tests of produces in markets and supermarkets). I dont mind paying more for products if produced safe. But its not just farmers its also the police allowing this and testing agencies not doing much. If testing agencies were to be tough and check far mor fining and destroying batches of bad produces bans would not be needed. you do know that organic farming can and do use chemicals, right? Also, just because something is a 'chemical' doesn't make it bad, everything is made of chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 10 hours ago, PremiumLane said: you do know that organic farming can and do use chemicals, right? Also, just because something is a 'chemical' doesn't make it bad, everything is made of chemicals. I am not stupid or at least i like to believe i am not. Not al chemicals are bad but in this context i was talking about dangerous pesticides and herbicides. On numerous occasions i have read reports on Thais Visa and thai english newspapers about the testing of vegetables and fruits and almost always they contained too much of those chemicals. This was in markets and supermarkets. It is a failure of the testing agency that they don't fine and destroy those batches and track down the farmers responsible. If this would happen farmers would clean up their act. Its not their fault completely as they have no incentive not to use too much and wrong stuff as it increases their yields. If farmers would do so then they lose out as the bad ones would have more yield and still get away with it while they, the good ones don't get a reward for being good while the bad ones sell more. So it is as much the farmers fault as it is the institutions that are responsible for food safety. Enforcement is the root of many problems in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canopy Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 On 11/21/2019 at 2:39 AM, 473geo said: I'm sorry but you really don't appear to have a clue ???? good luck in all you do, you'll need it!! When you turn to making a discussion personal instead of discussing the facts, it means you lost the technical argument. So you just vividly showed everyone here that you lost by hurling that nonsense one liner on the way out. But there is no need to apologize as it doesn't bother me. It's just a natural commonplace human reaction. So welcome back to the real discussion anytime. I would be happy to continue to provide factual information from the ground level for the benefit of all. Sometimes the truth is difficult to accept and I understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canopy Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 22 hours ago, Enki said: Thai rice is basically organic You lost ALL credibility with that gem. Thai farmers do not grow organically. They love to use chemicals, herbecides, pesticides, and burn liberally. This is not "basically" organic. It is as far away from organic as you can get. You can't get to be organic by proclamation, it takes many years following well thought out industry standard rules, not your own ideas in a vacuum. Thai farmers love their chemicals. They have and will continue to resist any changes to their poorly implemented methods of farming that make them dirt poor and makes themselves and others sick. You've got to remember that before our generation farmers released crabs and serpent head fish into the paddies to do the work of pesticides. It worked. And they had the most lovely somtam, and best fish feasts from their own land, ate like kings, and the food was as healthy as can be. When you look around at what they are doing today it's not a pretty picture and it's got them nowhere but backwards. Today people and farmers alike buy fish raised in the runoff of field poisons, sell produce so drenched in chemicals it's considered unsafe for human consumption, the people are choking on the smoke, and the environment is suffering so much and the farmers are poorer than ever. Surely there is a better way than propping up this failed model. I feel for the farmers. They do unappreciated, back breaking work and deserve a better quality of life than they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmerjo Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 2 hours ago, canopy said: You can't get to be organic by proclamation, it takes many years following well thought out industry standard rules, not your own ideas in a vacuum. I would love to see the results of organic matter content in the soils of farmers applying for organic certified status in Thailand after 12-18 months. There doesn't seem to be a minimum standard percentage for that to gain certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 4 hours ago, canopy said: When you turn to making a discussion personal instead of discussing the facts, it means you lost the technical argument. So you just vividly showed everyone here that you lost by hurling that nonsense one liner on the way out. But there is no need to apologize as it doesn't bother me. It's just a natural commonplace human reaction. So welcome back to the real discussion anytime. I would be happy to continue to provide factual information from the ground level for the benefit of all. Sometimes the truth is difficult to accept and I understand that. Yes I lost because I don't agree with your truth, and have neither the time nor enthusiasm for discussion with a person carrying such blinkered views So much so that I am pleased I lost - Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soalbundy Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 On 11/15/2019 at 7:55 AM, robblok said: Things can and should change i see it in my profession too. Its called progress. Sure it often means more work and cost but the end result is more safety. I guess you have no problem with selfish people and like things to stay stagnant. For years it was normal to throw human waste on the streets and roads causing disease. That changed an was expensive at first now its normal and saves life. I guess your ok with the burning as that is what has been done for years ? Also a ptime example of a selfish and dangerous act of farmers. Should that not change as it is the way it always was? I find it a weak argument saying we do it because we always did it. It means the end of progress and innovation. It has been suggested that farmers pay a land owner for space to dry their rice instead, I have heard from my wife that the going price for rice this year is 5 Baht a kilo, it costs around 6 Baht to produce it. In the villages the concrete roads are used, these aren't main thoroughfares and the locals know what is going on, there aren't that many cars anyway, mainly motorbikes. On 'B' roads between villages straight roads are used so one can see far ahead any oncoming traffic. I have never heard of an accident because of rice drying, if in this case that was what caused it then it was driving without due care and attention because in rural areas everybody knows what happens at harvest time, it's the same in Europe in winter time everybody knows there could be ice on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canopy Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 4 hours ago, farmerjo said: I would love to see the results of organic matter content in the soils of farmers applying for organic certified status in Thailand after 12-18 months. That is why there is a period of time, often 6 years after applying, before you can get organic certification on anything planted in a given area. And the area will be tested periodically during that time to make sure any residual chemicals dissipate and no new substances are being added that taint the soil. 2 hours ago, 473geo said: Yes I lost because I don't agree with your truth No, you lost because you switched to getting personal instead of presenting a credible counter argument. And you don't seem to have noticed I don't care much for presenting view points which I find pretty useless, but rather prefer to report factual, substantive, relevant information many may not know about. This is not a viewpoint. People who call things "basically organic" which doesn't make any sense are presenting a viewpoint / opinion that open themselves up to debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 @Canopy You advocate economy of scale in Thai farming, seek to destroy a culture of rural family support, in a country where there is no welfare system, salaries are low, and a piece of land allows to build a home and is the base of survival - you lost my interest right there!! You clearly do not understand the required use of pesticides (where organic solutions are time consuming, expensive and risk limited success) against such crop destructive threats as the Thrip - please bear in mind we are talking swarms of thrips can work through tens of rai destroying rice crops in days You create statement of fact because one guy on an organic farm told you "they are probably burning something I could use" Baling rice straw for sale is quite simply not an economic proposition for the small farmer despite your imaginary market for the product. The Thai will find a middle road moving forward, However in a country where the rewards of agriculture include being able to build your own home and homes for your children and the land feeds the family basic needs, yes there are still crabs and fish, profit margins are small, if any at all, lifestyle is driven on a daily basis by financial consideration. In my country some people live on welfare, some by choice others not so, to these people I say if you can adapt your lifestyle to live on welfare, no issues for me, enjoy. To the Thai rural community I say hang on to your land, your heritage, resist the economy of scale <deleted> pushed at you by those with limited vision, retain an element of independence that has survived over the years, that in any situation, you have the ability to be for the most part self sufficient. If you need to burn a little now and then get the matches out ???? while of course looking for solutions that are realistic and economically viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritManToo Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 On 11/22/2019 at 8:58 AM, canopy said: You've got to remember that before our generation farmers released crabs and serpent head fish into the paddies to do the work of pesticides. It worked. And they had the most lovely somtam, and best fish feasts from their own land, ate like kings, and the food was as healthy as can be. And then all died of cancer resulting from the infestation of liver flukes which they all suffered. Internal parasites is not my idea of healthy living/eating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canopy Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, 473geo said: You advocate economy of scale in Thai farming, seek to destroy a culture of rural family support I am simply being realistic. The Thai 21st century system of small family run chemical farms is a failure that is noncompetitive on the global market, harmful to the people and the environment, and results in more poverty than ever to the farmer. The gap between rich and poor is rising. These are all facts. We need new, fresh ideas and new approaches to end this. I can't tell you for sure what those are though I do have some pretty interesting ideas. But I am firmly against the government propping up the existing failed farming model with handouts because it is sure to result in a deeper, longer cycle of poverty than letting free market forces work. I am pro farmer. I want them to have a better life than the one they are trapped into today. And the sooner they find a way out of this poverty trap, the better. Farmers work like lions and their work should be towards rewards, not more poverty. 12 minutes ago, 473geo said: Baling rice straw for sale is quite simply not an economic proposition for the small farmer despite your imaginary market for the product. Surprised to hear this. Look around more, farmers do sell bales in Thailand and they are sought after and carry I quite high price. I even suggested a hand baler, rather than giant baling machinery, because it is perfect for the small farmer especially in out of the way or mountainous terrain and yet I have never seen one here, except mine happily baling rice straw. 14 minutes ago, 473geo said: you have the ability to be for the most part self sufficient Yes and it sounds so picturesque to us, but keep in mind this is out of touch of what a farmer wants today. They want to buy cars, i-phones, and pay the bills just like everyone else. They need a path that matches with these desires, not trapped in a system where their land offers them no real money making potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Hand bailing looks quite labour intensive, thus unless you are capable need to hire labour, how many bales do you produce in a season? but I see your point it can be done in time. Rice straw, so tell me, don't waffle, "quite a high price" exactly what are the prices you are hearing/seeing for rice straw, and is being sold per bale, per ton. per truck load? I have heard of guys baling spare rice straw output to clear it for free, mostly for their own use? saves burning but no other benefit to the farmer and is the exception rather than the rule. Thai small farms "Non competitive in a global market" Didn't I just explain that!! safety net, family home, self sufficient, free building land!! and you prefer to be "realistic" also known as and 'blind to the benefits!!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canopy Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 On 11/23/2019 at 2:10 PM, 473geo said: Hand bailing looks quite labour intensive, thus unless you are capable need to hire labour, how many bales do you produce in a season? Stacking loose straw into a box and pulling the lever down does not take hercules. It's actually fun and rewarding as open the door and out pops a beautiful bale. It's like a money printer. On 11/23/2019 at 2:10 PM, 473geo said: Rice straw, so tell me, don't waffle, "quite a high price" exactly I really wish I had an up to date price because I am curious as well. The last time I checked the price of straw bales was 10 years ago. They cost 25 baht each at the time and surely it's far higher now. A couple guys can easily make thousands of baht a day, maybe 10,000 baht with virtually no operating costs. Sure beats minimum wage, creates new and high income for these people, and eases the bad air a bit. It's seasonal money utilizing a field waste product that is normally heaped and burned. There is limitless potential as you just go farm to farm consuming their straw heaps and selling bales to others. Besides the local market, who knows, put them on lazada and see what happens. Or someone who can't afford a house can bale away and use the fruits of their labor to make their very own snug, straw bale house. But hand baling is just one possibility, no need to focus on it too much. The important thing to understand is there are many ways the economics of the farmers can be increased by no burn. On 11/23/2019 at 2:10 PM, 473geo said: Thai small farms "Non competitive in a global market" Didn't I just explain that!! safety net, family home, self sufficient, free building land! Again, this sounds wonderful and no one wants to lose any of that, but keep in mind this is secondary to what the farmers desperately want the most. They are in debt and living in shacks. They want a better quality of life, better healthcare, ability to send their kids through secondary education, and so forth. Today's model doesn't work for them. Fix it, propping it up with a crutch is the worst thing you can do because it only assures they live on in poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trolleen Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 More and more rules come... Once easy and happy country war bombarded med different rules. Soon it will England /USA numbers 2. Do not do it, do not do that. That's why few people smile and happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enki Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 On 11/22/2019 at 2:58 AM, canopy said: On 11/21/2019 at 5:03 AM, Enki said: You lost ALL credibility with that gem. Thai farmers do not grow organically. They love to use chemicals, herbecides, pesticides, Yes it is. In the area I live, they mostly don't even use fertilizer. On 11/22/2019 at 2:58 AM, canopy said: and burn liberally. That is a regional issue, and basically only a problem regarding bad air if it is done to exhaustive. I live in Nakon Phanom province, burning is done by perhaps one out of 100 farmers. The others are plowing the straw under again. On 11/22/2019 at 2:58 AM, canopy said: Thai farmers love their chemicals No, they don't they are to poor to buy them. You have no clue about the topic, but you are phobic about thai food, best is you leave the country ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enki Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 On 11/22/2019 at 7:44 AM, soalbundy said: It has been suggested that farmers pay a land owner for space to dry their rice instead, I have heard from my wife that the going price for rice this year is 5 Baht a kilo, it costs around 6 Baht to produce it. In the villages the concrete roads are used, these aren't main thoroughfares and the locals know what is going on, there aren't that many cars anyway, mainly motorbikes. On 'B' roads between villages straight roads are used so one can see far ahead any oncoming traffic. I have never heard of an accident because of rice drying, if in this case that was what caused it then it was driving without due care and attention because in rural areas everybody knows what happens at harvest time, it's the same in Europe in winter time everybody knows there could be ice on the road. Then your wife is wrong ... the government has set minimum prices nearly 3 times as high. Google is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enki Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 On 11/23/2019 at 7:37 AM, canopy said: The Thai 21st century system of small family run chemical farms is a failure that is noncompetitive on the global market This is not the "Thai System" that is your imagination ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enki Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 On 11/25/2019 at 3:09 AM, canopy said: They cost 25 baht each at the time and surely it's far higher now. A couple guys can easily make thousands of baht a day, maybe 10,000 baht with virtually no operating costs. Were I live, there is no farmer that has fields enough to make bales for 10,000 TBH. You are so delusional it is unbelievable. My wife makes 30,000 TBH from rice. This year perhaps a bit more. With your theory about bales she would make 500 TBH extra. Not really worth it. We plow it under and save on fertilizer - which we can not use most of the years anyway because the water is retreating to late. You have no clue, why are you posting here your american nonsense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayned Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 how could they be drying crops on roads? The Thai government declared that the "official" start of rainy season was 1 November so a\ll of the roads should be wet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enki Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 22 hours ago, wayned said: how could they be drying crops on roads? The Thai government declared that the "official" start of rainy season was 1 November so a\ll of the roads should be wet! The official start of rainy season is Sonkran festival, mid April. The actual start this year was end of May. November is cold season ... Thailand has only 3 seasons. No idea what you wanted to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayned Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 I was trying to say that as usual the Thai Government doesn't have a clue as they came out and said that the "official" start of rainy season is 1st November a couple of months age. As far as rainy season is concerned it depends where you live: "When is the Rainy Season in Thailand? The rainy season in Thailand varies from region to region and is largely dominated by the monsoon. Very broadly speaking, Thailand’s rainy season can be classified as May/June to October. For most of Thailand, the wettest months are usually August-October. However, the Gulf Coast of the southern peninsula (e.g. Ko Samui, Ko Pha Ngan) is affected by the south-west monsoon which can lead to heavy rainfall in November and the beginning of December.'\' Just google it! That was what I was trying to say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canopy Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 On 11/30/2019 at 10:21 PM, Enki said: That is a regional issue...Nakon Phanom province, burning is done by perhaps one out of 100 farmers Perhaps huh. When I look at the air quality figures for that province and compare it with provinces that are known to heavily burn it makes your anecdotal data far from convincing. On 11/30/2019 at 10:21 PM, Enki said: you are phobic about thai food I have nothing to do with it. If the health experts test the food and announce to the public that it is unhealthy or sub-standard who are you to tell everyone they are wrong? On 11/30/2019 at 10:32 PM, Enki said: Were I live, there is no farmer that has fields enough to make bales for 10,000 TBH Hint: you can go from heap to heap and even field to field to collect as much straw as you want. I know exactly how much a hand baler can do in a day, you don't. So this is quite humorous to see you trying to invent arguments about something you know nothing about. On 11/30/2019 at 10:32 PM, Enki said: With your theory about bales she would make 500 TBH extra That's what, maybe 10 bales? That's a pretty small farm, sounds like more of a hobby garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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