Retirement extension via monthly B65K rejected in Khon Kaen

[KeeTua]

34 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

pension is paid directly from the Reserve Bank of Australia to my Bangkok Bank account in Khon Kaen it does not go through a commercial bank in Australia, but like all Australian pensions that are paid directly overseas they are paid at a 4 weekly interval and not a monthly interval so I am paid 13 x 4 weekly payments and not 12 x 1 monthly payments and that is what the I/O used against me even thou the official police order clearly states that the income system is worked on the annual average monthly income.

"Evidence of income of father, mother or husband who is an alien which shows that throughout a year, an average income is not less than 40,000 baht monthly"

 

I think the way it is written leaves it too open to an IOs interpretation. The IO may read the line "not less than 40,000 baht monthly" to mean just that ignoring the fact that it should be averaged.

 

To cover yourself from a possible erroneous interpretation I would make sure I had ฿40K/month coming in via international transfer. In your case, if possible, have the pension deposited to an account in Australia then initiate the transfers to your Thai account manually. That should avoid issues of averaging and having deposits of less than 40K for each of the 12 months.

 

It may not be correct to need to do it that way but it beats having to argue your position with an IO who may reject your application in the end.

Edited November 16, 2019 by KeeTua

[NancyL]

2 hours ago, kevinmartyn said:

I have been working for over 40 years and a British foreigner staying in Thailand. I personally do NOT have access to 65,000 bhat and have NI payments over 35 years! Who are these people that have a pension income of 65k++

For the U.S. if someone was a higher earner and paid the maximum into U.S. Social Security, their monthly benefit at if they retired at age 62 would be USD 2,265, if they waited to start benefits at their full retirement age (in the past age 65, but now being raised higher for people born after 1953) USD 3,3011 and if they waited until age 70 to start their SS benefits, their monthly benefit would be USD 3,790. 

 

And someone did not have to be a millionaire to be considered a "high earner" to reach the cap for maximum contribution to SS.  In 1990, the max income was $51,300, in 2000 it was $76,200.

 

It's common, too, for U.S. retirees to also have a pension from a private employer or military service, so yes, I know quite a few people who have a pension income excess of 65k.

[WeekendRaider]

it’s probably that many immigration folks see the 800k method to be simple and easy paperwork, and that’s why they want to push it.  And we also are seeing it that way, us retirees.

 

so then the question is why wouldn’t someone oblige?  even with Thai health coverage a few million THB is needed if you are not ambulatory enough to get back to your home country.  and for myself, I would add I don’t want to ever go back to the USA, let alone enter my 7os or 80s, still quite healthy, but not able to pay my way in the Thai hospital system.

 

so 800k is what makes sense to most of us now, and 65k gets attention as.... why? and please, a Thai retail bank account is quite safe, there are lots of other things to worry about if you worry about a large Thai retail bank having such problems.  really.

Edited November 16, 2019 by WeekendRaider

[sniggie]

28 minutes ago, WeekendRaider said:

it’s probably that many immigration folks see the 800k method to be simple and easy paperwork, and that’s why they want to push it.  And we also are seeing it that way, us retirees.

 

so then the question is why wouldn’t someone oblige?  even with Thai health coverage a few million THB is needed if you are not ambulatory enough to get back to your home country.  and for myself, I would add I don’t want to ever go back to the USA, let alone enter my 7os or 80s, still quite healthy, but not able to pay my way in the Thai hospital system.

 

so 800k is what makes sense to most of us now, and 65k gets attention as.... why? and please, a Thai retail bank account is quite safe, there are lots of other things to worry about if you worry about a large Thai retail bank having such problems.  really.

I really can't accept your premise for a variety of reasons. 65k per month was the accepted amount prior to the removal of the income letters by only three of the many nationalities retired in the kingdom. I resent the fact that I, as a UK citizen, am not treated the same as most other nationalities. I have often pointed out that it would appear that the Thai authorities stopped bothering once they had got three major English-speaking countries to stop issuing letters. All the points that you have made about keeping 800K baht in the kingdom would apply just as much to the nationalities not caught up in the problems caused by the stopping of embassy letters. Not that I want to queer their patch, good luck to them, but I resent the fact that citizens of the three affected nations seem to be being given such a hard time on occasions with extensions being refused for the smallest of discrepancies. 

 

I would remind you that the OP was about problems with the 65k per month method and for posters to come on here espousing the merits of the 800k in the bank method are not adding to the original subject.  For the record I have at least four times the 800k baht equivalent in long-term investments in the UK paying good dividends and that is where I would like it to stay.   

[Russell17au]

1 hour ago, KeeTua said:

"Evidence of income of father, mother or husband who is an alien which shows that throughout a year, an average income is not less than 40,000 baht monthly"

 

I think the way it is written leaves it too open to an IOs interpretation. The IO may read the line "not less than 40,000 baht monthly" to mean just that ignoring the fact that it should be averaged.

 

To cover yourself from a possible erroneous interpretation I would make sure I had ฿40K/month coming in via international transfer. In your case, if possible, have the pension deposited to an account in Australia then initiate the transfers to your Thai account manually. That should avoid issues of averaging and having deposits of less than 40K for each of the 12 months.

 

It may not be correct to need to do it that way but it beats having to argue your position with an IO who may reject your application in the end.

I used to do the transfers from my Australian bank but the big problem there is the over the top fees plus the lousy exchange rate that you get from the commercial banks. I was losing around 5000 baht a month in fees and exchange rates. Some will say to use transferwise because it is cheaper but there are a few that have had problems with them not showing an international transfer into your bank account so for this one I will be going to Savannakhet and get a 1 year multi entry marriage visa and see what happens during the year. It just means that the wife and I have a couple of days holiday every 90 days instead of visiting the immigration office and I can extend it out to 15 months simply by going to Laos a couple of days before the visa expires and get another 90 days.

[shen923]

On 11/15/2019 at 12:25 PM, PatOngo said:

What is disturbing is people who think they can retire but can't scrape together 800,000 baht!

Even more disturbing is comments such as this.  If one has well over 65K/mo coming in from pensions or investment distributions, WTH difference does it make how much they can "scrape together" as you term it, as to rather or not one can retire?  

[ThaiWai]

On 11/15/2019 at 11:12 AM, 4MyEgo said:

Got to agree with you there.

 

I make it a note to dress appropriately and wai when I walk in to the immigration office that does my annual extension and 90 day renewals, that said there was once that I forgot to take photos when I submitted my extension based on marriage to a Thai, it was a Friday, and I was told that I could send new ones in to the I/O on his LINE profile, he would download and print them off and put them with the application, i.e. if I would like to donate something to their Xmas fund, of which I did as it would have been a 3 hour return trip, money spent on fuel and my time etc etc, wife didn't want too....lol, so the 500 baht was worth it IMO, in other words he did me a favor as opposed to me returning on Monday.

 

The above said you might ask why don't you do the 90 days online (have been thinking about it) as we do the TM30 online, but I find the hour 300 drive for a 5 minute wait to be, although annoying, they remember the face, little chat and smile, so that facial profile, wai, smile, may want to assist if there is a problem, sometimes for a small donations, other times, like for a re-entry permit, I forgot to photocopy some stuff, mai pen rai, will do for you, so the face behind the 90 day renewal being seen an extra 3-4 times a year helps in my opinion, although if its a big office, you might just be a number.

Yeah a wai and a token will get you a ride on the subway also

[ThaiWai]

On 11/15/2019 at 12:25 PM, PatOngo said:

What is disturbing is people who think they can retire but can't scrape together 800,000 baht!

Earning nothing on that money while it sits in a Thai bank is considered losing money to even an average investor which you are obviously not.  Also, some pensioners receive monthly pensions etc and don't have lumps sums and of course if that doesn't satisfy you there is the always they option to mind your own business and not assume everyone is you. To think that it concerns you to the point of being "disturbed" says a lot about you.

[rexall]

3 hours ago, Thailand said:

Private pensions plus perhaps state pensions or other acceptable income.

I am not aware that the income must be from a "pension," only that it be from offshore.  Of course, I/O can make up the rules as they go along, but there is nothing official that I know of saying it has to be a pension. I used the income affidavit form the U.S. Embassy for many years, and that letter said only quote-unquote:

"I affirm that I receive a monthly income of $_________________ from sources in the United States..."

[shen923]

4 hours ago, kevinmartyn said:

I have been working for over 40 years and a British foreigner staying in Thailand. I personally do NOT have access to 65,000 bhat and have NI payments over 35 years! Who are these people that have a pension income of 65k++

Well for one would be a retired US Military member at 20 years in the grade of E-8, thats about 75K/mo.

[WhatupThailand]

On 11/15/2019 at 12:25 PM, PatOngo said:

What is disturbing is people who think they can retire but can't scrape together 800,000 baht!

I receive a Monthly Military Pension and Social Security Pension, from the US,

that is more than the B65K needed to meet my Retirement Visa amounts.

Up until this coming December Extension, I had used the Income letter from the US Consulate

to verify my Income. Now will try the Monthly income method.

I do not need to tie my money up in a Bank, doing nothing, when I can use it to Live.

 

People need to consider how unstable the World Banking system is at present.

Remember what happened in Greece not long ago ?

What will you do when all the Banks Fail, and take your money with them ?

 

Think it will not happen ?

You got your head in the sand.

Better to take the paper, and buy anything of value, Gold, Silver, Car, House, ect.

Cause there is a Fire Sale coming soon, all over the World.

 

 

[Fairynuff]

7 hours ago, rexall said:

Have a backup plan because there have been more than one report of extensions being denied on the basis of one or two deposits showing as domestic rather than foreign. In one incident, the OP was able to show receipts from TransferWise proving that the transfers were from offshore.  He was denied.  I/O wanted to see that FTT notation in the bankbook.

Which just shows how petty officialdom can be for no other reason than because they can. 

[ubonjoe]

A post quoting a post out of context and replies to it have been removed.

[john terry1001]

3 hours ago, Russell17au said:

that pension is paid directly from the Reserve Bank of Australia to my Bangkok Bank account in Khon Kaen it does not go through a commercial bank in Australia, but like all Australian pensions that are paid directly overseas they are paid at a 4 weekly interval and not a monthly interval so I am paid 13 x 4 weekly payments and not 12 x 1 monthly payments and that is what the I/O used against me even thou the official police order clearly states that the income system is worked on the annual average monthly income

Your post is very interesting. I'm from the UK but two of my pensions are paid 4 weekly with the third being calendar monthly. Fortunately just counting all three as monthly incomes still takes me over the threshold so the 13th payment is just a bonus for 40k pm income purposes.

 

Are you saying that they only recognise twelve of your 4 weekly transfers as individual monthly incomes with the 13th payment simply added to one of the other twelve, to effectively make one month a much higher income? And did that effectively make the other eleven slightly below the 40k pm threshold? Did you have to show any proof of where your income originated as this would distinguish between 4 weekly and monthly payments?

[Russell17au]

6 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

Your post is very interesting. I'm from the UK but two of my pensions are paid 4 weekly with the third being calendar monthly. Fortunately just counting all three as monthly incomes still takes me over the threshold so the 13th payment is just a bonus for 40k pm income purposes.

 

Are you saying that they only recognise twelve of your 4 weekly transfers as individual monthly incomes with the 13th payment simply added to one of the other twelve, to effectively make one month a much higher income? And did that effectively make the other eleven slightly below the 40k pm threshold? Did you have to show any proof of where your income originated as this would distinguish between 4 weekly and monthly payments?

10 of my payments were over the 40,000 with the other 3 payment in the high 39,000 which according to the police order with the average annual monthly income I was well above the threshold. No, I was not even asked about where my income originated. The I/O was just not interested in anything that was said or the spreadsheet from the bank.

[john terry1001]

7 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

10 of my payments were over the 40,000 with the other 3 payment in the high 39,000 which according to the police order with the average annual monthly income I was well above the threshold. No, I was not even asked about where my income originated. The I/O was just not interested in anything that was said or the spreadsheet from the bank.

Thanks for the information. Sad to see Khon Kaen appear to be saying all monthly transfers must exceed 40k and are ignoring what the Police order actually says about average. Hope you can get things sorted via Savannakhet. It'll be interesting to post your progress.

 As I said, my transfers all average nearer 50k pm. I tend to make two transfers a month. The two 4weekly ones come on the same day and I transfer them as and when. The monthly one comes on the 1st and I transfer that one to pay all the monthly bills. I use Tansferwise and my only concern is that in February, before they'd got anything organised, one transfer arrived as a local transfer. I've got a credit advice slip to prove is was an international transfer so I'll have to wait and see if that is acceptable.

[wwest5829]

On 11/15/2019 at 12:25 PM, PatOngo said:

What is disturbing is people who think they can retire but can't scrape together 800,000 baht!

Then there are those of us who could bring 800,000 baht to park in a Thai bank but are wiser to leave their money invested for a higher rate of return helping fund our retirement.

[rexall]

1 hour ago, john terry1001 said:

Thanks for the information. Sad to see Khon Kaen appear to be saying all monthly transfers must exceed 40k and are ignoring what the Police order actually says about average. Hope you can get things sorted via Savannakhet. It'll be interesting to post your progress.

 As I said, my transfers all average nearer 50k pm. I tend to make two transfers a month. The two 4weekly ones come on the same day and I transfer them as and when. The monthly one comes on the 1st and I transfer that one to pay all the monthly bills. I use Tansferwise and my only concern is that in February, before they'd got anything organised, one transfer arrived as a local transfer. I've got a credit advice slip to prove is was an international transfer so I'll have to wait and see if that is acceptable.

I refer to a similar situation in an earlier post. The OP had 12 deposits via TransferWise, but one was entered as domestic rather than FTT (International Transfer). He was denided even though he provided the TransferWise receipt proving that the deposit was from offshore.  The I/O was only interested in what notation appeared in the bankbook. The "good news" was that he was granted the extension after making "special arrangements" with the I/O. I suppose that is better than an unplanned trip to Laos and starting the visa process over.  The annoying thing about it is that the original scuttlebutt on ThaiVisa from a year ago was that Imm was going to show quote-unquote "leniency" the first year owing to the fact that it might take a few months for applicants to get their finances organized.

Edited November 16, 2019 by rexall

[john terry1001]

1 hour ago, rexall said:

I refer to a similar situation in an earlier post. The OP had 12 deposits via TransferWise, but one was entered as domestic rather than FTT (International Transfer). He was denided even though he provided the TransferWise receipt proving that the deposit was from offshore.

I am not talking about supplying the Transferwise receipt to show it it came from overseas.

 

The transfer I am referring to went from Transferwise to the TMB, then from TMB to my Bangkok bank account. I contacted the TMB International Department in Bangkok and supplied them with the relevant Transferwise transfer information plus my Bangkok Bank account details and TMB supplied me with an official credit advice receipt certificate instructing Immigration that the transfer did actually originate from overseas. Took them about three days and they sent it to my local TMB branch for me to collect.

 

Speaking to TW and BKKB a few months ago, when TW set up their procedure for transfers into Thailand they had discussions with immigration and their three partner banks when it was agreed that should a 'rogue' local transfer occur, the relevant bank would, if asked, supply a certificate that was acceptable to immigration to prove the transfer originated from overseas.

 

To my knowledge, so far there have been two people, one in Chang Mai and one in Pattaya, who have used this process and both were successful. 

 

 

I have posted the availability of this process several times in different threads on TV since it was set up and running since July. The three banks are aware of what is needed. I have had feedback of people being able to get the credit advice receipts successfully and not heard of any being refused by immigration so far.

Edited November 16, 2019 by john terry1001

[rexall]

5 minutes ago, john terry1001 said:

I am not talking about supplying the Transferwise receipt to show it it came from overseas.

 

The transfer I am referring to went from Transferwise to the TMB, then from TMB to my Bangkok bank account. I contacted the TMB International Department in Bangkok and supplied them with the relevant Transferwise transfer information plus my Bangkok Bank account details and TMB supplied me with an official credit advice receipt certificate instructing Immigration that the transfer did actually originate from overseas. Took them about three days and they sent it to my local TMB branch for me to collect.

 

Speaking to TW and BKKB a few months ago, when TW set up their procedure for transfers into Thailand they had discussions with immigration and their three partner banks when it was agreed that should a 'rogue' local transfer occur, the relevant bank would, if asked, supply a certificate that was acceptable to immigration to prove the transfer originated from overseas.

 

To my knowledge, so far there have been two people, one in Chang Mai and one in Pattaya, who have used this process and both were successful. 

Thanks for the update and filling in all those blanks.  Very interesting. I guess it establishes what we already knew; some I/Os in some offices are going to be more flexible than others, and some are going to whatever they want regardless.  Good luck with your extension.

[john terry1001]

6 minutes ago, rexall said:

Thanks for the update and filling in all those blanks.  Very interesting. I guess it establishes what we already knew; some I/Os in some offices are going to be more flexible than others, and some are going to whatever they want regardless.  Good luck with your extension.

It's not a matter of some IO's being more flexible. A process to validate the transfers has been set up. Use it and you shouldn't have a problem. Don't use it and IO's have a legitimate reason to refuse the application. Cheers.

Edited November 16, 2019 by john terry1001

[rexall]

Have you been reading this thread?  It began 8 pages ago with a report of two applicants were were recently denied retirement extensions by the B65K/month option.  Certainly, there could be things we don't know about those interviews.  That is what we are trying to find out. However, I/Os in the same and in other offices are allowing the B65K/month.

As to the the method of demonstrating that deposits are offshore, I am not aware of any directive that says the only way to prove that deposits are offshore is via a FTT notation in the bankbook, yet that seems to be what some I/Os are insisting upon even when other proof is offered.

Finally, it is hardly a secret that I/Os have discretionary authority, so the idea that some would be ore flexible than others his hardly a matter of controversy.

[john terry1001]

39 minutes ago, rexall said:

Have you been reading this thread?  It began 8 pages ago with a report of two applicants were were recently denied retirement extensions by the B65K/month option.  Certainly, there could be things we don't know about those interviews.  That is what we are trying to find out. However, I/Os in the same and in other offices are allowing the B65K/month.

As to the the method of demonstrating that deposits are offshore, I am not aware of any directive that says the only way to prove that deposits are offshore is via a FTT notation in the bankbook, yet that seems to be what some I/Os are insisting upon even when other proof is offered.

Finally, it is hardly a secret that I/Os have discretionary authority, so the idea that some would be ore flexible than others his hardly a matter of controversy.

Yes, I have read every post right from your OP, the same as I have with every thread that relates to the monthly income option, whether based on retirement or marriage extensions. I have also spoken directly to Transferwise, banks in the UK, the Bangkok Bank and my local Immigration office at Si Racha as well as the helpline in Bangkok on several occasions since the initial changes to the monthly income rule in January of this year. 

 

 From your comments in your posts about your colleagues and their failure in their application it appears you/they might not be aware of what has actually gone on so far by several different members here in trying to get clarity in the rules and suggest a system that will bring a successful application.

 

While I'm aware that some IO's have been more flexible in accepting transfers without being given actual proof that they originated from abroad, the fact that you/your colleagues have come up against an IO who's sticking strictly to the rules shows you can't rely on posts from people that say the the lax IO they saw will be the same for everybody. 

[jacko45k]

19 hours ago, possum1931 said:

There are people like myself who can afford to have the required funds in a Thai bank, but  want to give the banks as less custom as possible are they are the biggest crooks

in the country.

Hyperbole aside, they certainly are not!

[sunnyboy2018]

On 11/15/2019 at 3:53 AM, rexall said:

Thanks, Matzzon. It's possible. That is why I used the word "claim."  I don't know them personally, but do find the stories credible. One of the guys is a real straight-shooter, "law & order" type who impresses me as someone who makes sure to dot all of his i's and cross all of his t's. Neither of the stories involved any specific objections from the I/O other than that the B65K method was unacceptable. 

We'll see. But two in one week is too much of a coincidence not to raise a red flag..

Why didnt they use an agent to revolve the problem? Thats what they are there for!

[sunnyboy2018]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Hyperbole aside, they certainly are not!

True.

[sunnyboy2018]

19 hours ago, kevinmartyn said:

I have been working for over 40 years and a British foreigner staying in Thailand. I personally do NOT have access to 65,000 bhat and have NI payments over 35 years! Who are these people that have a pension income of 65k++

Company pensions   private pensions, corporate pensions. If you work for a blue chip company or a good public sector job you pension can be as high as your salary. My pension is my state pension and my rentals income plus dividends on investments.

[sunnyboy2018]

16 hours ago, shen923 said:

Even more disturbing is comments such as this.  If one has well over 65K/mo coming in from pensions or investment distributions, WTH difference does it make how much they can "scrape together" as you term it, as to rather or not one can retire?  

True.  My income exceeds the requirements in total but not in convenient montly tranches so i use an agent.

[EricTh]

1 hour ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Why didnt they use an agent to revolve the problem? Thats what they are there for!

 

Is corruption still rampant?

 

If not, what could an agent do if all the rules and conditions are adhered to?

 

Some so-called monthly transfers are suspicious because the money can be recycled by the applicants either inside Thailand or outside Thailand. After all, you need only a maximum of 65k in Thailand at any one time versus 800k.

 

Unless there are other proofs like government pension fund etc, that method might not be acceptable.

 

That's why some immigration officers prefer the 800k method as it is less vulnerable to manipulation. 

 

There are just too many loopholes and immigration is trying to close each one.

Edited November 17, 2019 by EricTh

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Why didnt they use an agent to revolve the problem? Thats what they are there for!

Can you suggest an agent that is located in Khon Kaen. I suspect not.

I would guess agents are not available at over 90% of immigration offices.