Embassy Explanation for Ceasing Immigration letters

[mikebell]

This is the reply I received after I suggested that UK Inland Revenue could provide proof of income.  I pointed out the Embassy have lost a lucrative source of income for doing little.  I underlined that 800,000 baht in a Thai bank does not benefit the tax on savings interest.  I suggested expats would be squeezed into returning home and would plunder Social Services.

 

Thank you for your email to the Ambassador and Deputy Head of Mission, dated 17 October 2019, about the withdrawal of the British Embassy Bangkok’s income letter service.

 

I am sorry that you are unsatisfied with the replies you have already received on this matter. As you will be aware your latest message to us is being treated as a complaint and as Deputy Consul and Head of Operations in the Consular section at the Embassy, I have been asked to investigate.

 

You start your letter to us by asking when we will perform what many see as our primary function (‘to assist expats in their daily lives whilst living in Thailand’). It is correct to say that we have a role supporting our citizens and businesses around the globe and we work hard to deliver that.

 

Our main focus is to provide support to the most vulnerable of those, for example victims of violent crime, children at risk, rape victims and people with serious physical and mental health issues. It may be of interest to you that in 2018 the British Embassy Bangkok provided this kind of support to 1,466 British Nationals in Thailand.

 

You also ask why we cannot share HMRC’s pension databases. Unfortunately the UK’s Data Protection laws prohibit organisations, including Government departments, from providing personal information to third parties about customer details. A further obstacle is that pensions often come from many sources and countries, so HMRC will not have information on them. You also express concerns as a UK taxpayer that a source of income for the Embassy has ‘dried up’.

 

I can appreciate your concern but as you are aware the drivers for the decision to cease providing income verification letters was that the British Embassy is unable to verify the various incomes of British Nationals, which was what the Thai Immigration Bureau expected these letters to do. It was therefore an unsustainable service. It may also be reassuring to note that the cost of consular services is borne by the beneficiaries of the service and is not subsidised by the UK taxpayer. You also ask if we were aware of the ramifications and impact on daily life of British expatriates here in Thailand.

 

We were acutely aware of this and the decision to cease providing these letters was never taken lightly. But after extensive discussions with Thai authorities and with the FCO in London it was clear that we had to stop issuing these. As part of this process we worked hard to ensure that Thai authorities provide alternative ways for British Nationals to prove their income.

 

Although we will continue to encourage them to provide options that work for British Nationals, the options they offer are their responsibility and not an aspect of the services we offer. I should also note that there has been no change in the financial requirement for Thai visa applications and extensions since this aspect of the Immigration Act came into effect in 2006. I appreciate your concerns regarding British Expatriates who feel that they will have no alternative than to leave Thailand.

 

We are not aware of any who are doing so and need our support, but we stand ready to help them where we can. I also understand your concerns about returning to UK. Before making this decision, you may wish to visit our website https://www.gov.uk/guidance/returning-to-the-uk for information about returning to the UK permanently.

 

I hope that I have been able to address your concerns. If you have any queries or require any further information please get in touch - my contact details are below. If you are not happy with my response and would like to take the matter further, you can also write to the Director of Consular Services at:

Edited November 17, 2019 by Jonathan Fairfield
Paragraph spacing and italic added to make a little easier to read

[UncleMhee]

A whole lot of prefabricated pollywaffle; just as I'd also expect to hear from the Australian Embassy.

Edited November 16, 2019 by UncleMhee

[steve187]

was always going to be the result. the UK government do not care about expats. 

[MRToMRT]

They care only about their little diplomatic world of privilege and associated people. They don't want to deal with the likes of me.

 

______________

 

Saying that, in this particular case, I would have done the same thing in their shoes. The Thais wanted a credible document and it is too hard to provide it for everyone. Its the Thais at fault - and we are all now living through the tightening of their system because it was made too easy for undesirables. Lets be honest Thailand is full of dodgy foreigners whether they be Brit ex crims, Amercian con artists, Pakistani forgers, Indian mafia, Iranian scammers, Australian hells angels, etc, etc and the changes to the Thai system made by Imm don't really bother the undesirables because they are used to getting around these things.

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by MRToMRT

[Momofarang]

31 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

The Thais wanted a credible document and it is too hard to provide it for everyone. Its the Thais at fault

I think this honors the British embassy, and surely they haven't done it lightly. The embassy I depend on still issue these letters without proof, officially. Highly unprofessional, if you as me.

[zydeco]

1 hour ago, mikebell said:

But after extensive discussions with Thai authorities and with the FCO in London it was clear that we had to stop issuing these.

Was it? Why? The UK, as well as the US and Australia, could have simply continued issuing the letters and leave it up to Thai Immigration to accept them or not. What were the "Thai authorities" going to do? Launch an invasion of the embassies? Are the Canadian and New Zealand embassies continuing to issue letters that are accepted by Thai Immigration? If so, are they substantially different from those issued by the US, UK, and Australia? Do they not have privacy laws, too? 

Edited November 16, 2019 by zydeco

[Matzzon]

Oh dear, for crying out load! It´s an Embassy that represents UK in a foreign country. They are not there to create a better life for UK citizens that wish to settle down in Thailand.

They are there for exactly the main reasons the man is kindly expressing, as well as creating, develop and maintain the diplomatic relationship between UK and Thailand.

It´s horrendous! First you all complain about Thai Immigration and they are so bad. When that doesn´t work. Yeah, then you are looking down at your own Embassy that represents your own country in Thailand.

Whenever will you people come to the conclusion that you might be wrong instead of Thai Immigration, your Embassy and everything else you can look down on and shuffle the blame to?

[spiekerjozef]

1 hour ago, steve187 said:

was always going to be the result. the UK government do not care about expats. 

You mean they don't care about their own citizens. If I remember well the cizizens voted in favour of the brexit. 33 years later and nothing happened...

[potless]

1 hour ago, mikebell said:

We were acutely aware of this and the decision to cease providing these letters was never taken lightly. But after extensive discussions with Thai authorities and with the FCO in London it was clear that we had to stop issuing these.

Then how is it possible that other countries are able to supply such letters without any problems? zydeco already beat me to it with a post.

Edited November 16, 2019 by potless

[zydeco]

Just remember.

 

 

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, MRToMRT said:

They care only about their little diplomatic world of privilege and associated people. They don't want to deal with the likes of me.

 

______________

 

Saying that, in this particular case, I would have done the same thing in their shoes. The Thais wanted a credible document and it is too hard to provide it for everyone. Its the Thais at fault - and we are all now living through the tightening of their system because it was made too easy for undesirables. Lets be honest Thailand is full of dodgy foreigners whether they be Brit ex crims, Amercian con artists, Pakistani forgers, Indian mafia, Iranian scammers, Australian hells angels, etc, etc and the changes to the Thai system made by Imm don't really bother the undesirables because they are used to getting around these things.

 

The data protection laws are consistent throughout Europe and are not exclusive to the UK. So how do most other European embassies still manage to provide the letters?

[Old Croc]

1 hour ago, UncleMhee said:

A whole lot of prefabricated pollywaffle; just as I'd also expect to hear from the Australian Embassy.

I thought it was well written and covered the OP's questions quite well. Like many, he has his own thoughts on the role of embassies that tends to differ from the actual. They do assist citizens with serious problems, but are not set up to provide a social service for people with financial or foreign visa difficulties.

The only real question that should be asked about in detail would be, why do they now find impossible that which embassies of other countries continue to provide. That question needs to be asked a lot further up the chain than with the embassy.

 

The rest of the OP's arguments were just pollywaffle.

 

[sqwakvfr]

How about this;  I waive my rights under the Data Privacy Act in order for the British Embasay in Bangkok to confirm my income?

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post meant to deflect the topic has been removed.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, potless said:

Then how is it possible that other countries are able to supply such letters without any problems? zydeco already beat me to it with a post.

Because they are prepared to confirm that they’ve confirmed the income.
 

The British embassy are not willing to verify the income — as required by immigration; therefore, they’re not prepared to provide a letter to immigration stating they have.

[sniggie]

A very detailed response to your complaint and much as to be expected. Thanks for sharing. However the person drafting the response shows a touching faith in the ability of the Thailand Immigration offices to apply their rules consistently and fairly throughout the kingdom.

Edited November 16, 2019 by sniggie
Amendment.

[Salerno]

3 hours ago, mikebell said:

You start your letter to us by asking when we will perform what many see as our primary function (‘to assist expats in their daily lives whilst living in Thailand’).

There's the OP's first mistake. The role of any Embassy is to look out for the interests of its country ... not it's citizens 

[from the home of CC]

2 hours ago, Momofarang said:

I think this honors the British embassy, and surely they haven't done it lightly. The embassy I depend on still issue these letters without proof, officially. Highly unprofessional, if you as me.

 you need proof with my embassy..

[john terry1001]

3 hours ago, MRToMRT said:

Thais at fault

NO...... it was the people illegally fiddling the Embassy letters that caused the problem and created the headaches the rest of us now have.  

[zydeco]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Because they are prepared to confirm that they’ve confirmed the income.
 

The British embassy are not willing to verify the income — as required by immigration; therefore, they’re not prepared to provide a letter to immigration stating they have.

Can somebody then compare the letters from Canada and New Zealand to the old letters from the UK, US, and Australia. Are they different? 

[elviajero]

53 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Can somebody then compare the letters from Canada and New Zealand to the old letters from the UK, US, and Australia. Are they different? 

It doesn't really matter what the letters say. The arrangement immigration have with the embassies is that they "verify" the income. The only way to truly verify the income is to get confirmation direct from the source of the income.

[Salerno]

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

Can somebody then compare the letters from Canada and New Zealand to the old letters from the UK, US, and Australia. Are they different? 

As above, content of the letter doesn't mean much, what the Embassy wants before issuing the letter is what counts. For Australians it was a stat dec i.e. taking a person's word they have the income, not verifying they have the income.

[UncleMhee]

12 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The only way to truly verify the income is to get confirmation direct from the source of the income.

Which the Australian government could have easily done for pensioners at least. They still could; because they are happy to certify original documents i.e. Centrelink income statements directly off of a MyGov app. I know this, because I  asked. They told me they could do that, just not a Stat Dec not for use in Oz.

 

But without the combo method it's all rather moot!

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by UncleMhee

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, zydeco said:

Was it? Why? The UK, as well as the US and Australia, could have simply continued issuing the letters and leave it up to Thai Immigration to accept them or not. What were the "Thai authorities" going to do? Launch an invasion of the embassies? Are the Canadian and New Zealand embassies continuing to issue letters that are accepted by Thai Immigration? If so, are they substantially different from those issued by the US, UK, and Australia? Do they not have privacy laws, too? 

The short answer is that the Thai authorities wanted and expected to hold Embassies feet-to-the-fire in a 'do-yer-know-who-I am?' sort of way if applicants were subsequently found to have told porkies in order to obtain their letters.

Consular duties do NOT include acting as guarantor for passport holders abroad. If host Govts want more information they are expected to be able to verify it themselves instead of insisting upon a letter from the headmaster.

HTH

Edited November 16, 2019 by evadgib

[Mr Smithy]

It is interesting that only four embassies refuse to certify income. The others continue to provide letters.

[BertM]

Talk about "beating a dead horse". Yes, the 4 embassies stopped issuing income letters in Dec 2018.  But, don't think for a minute, that any of those embassies ever verified incomes by contacting the sources. The embassies merely issued affidavits based on sworn statements or based on someone providing some paper documents which could have been legitimate or not... The horse is dead and there's no bringing it back to life, so, the only option now is to comply with Immigration's requirements. Feel sorry for those who are having trouble meeting the requirements...

Edited November 16, 2019 by BertM

[Mr Smithy]

5 minutes ago, BertM said:

Talk about "beating a dead horse". Yes, the 4 embassies stopped issuing income letters in Dec 2018.  But, don't think for a minute, that any of those embassies ever verified incomes by contacting the sources. The embassies merely issued affidavits based on sworn statements or based on someone providing some paper documents which could have been legitimate or not... The horse is dead and there's no bringing it back to life, so, the only option now is to comply with Immigration's requirements. Feel sorry for those who are having trouble meeting the requirements...

Mmm -- My income comes from two, legitimate easily verified UK government sources - The DWP and the NHS pension scheme. 

[fforest1]

4 hours ago, zydeco said:

Can somebody then compare the letters from Canada and New Zealand to the old letters from the UK, US, and Australia. Are they different? 

Sir please dont ask hard questions.....The you might make the guys on here who unquestionably support this action uncomfortable...

 

There is no mystery here....There is a ZERO% chance the embassies all thought this idea up at exactly the same time.....

 

Nope this is just good old fashion anti western sentiment....And dont any one try and say its not because if it was not it would have included ALL embassies every last one of them....They got the big 3 ....More western embassies will probably follow later...     

 

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by fforest1

[BertM]

45 minutes ago, Mr Smithy said:

Mmm -- My income comes from two, legitimate easily verified UK government sources - The DWP and the NHS pension scheme. 

Mmm... So, you are fortunate and should not have a problem transferring your income to Thailand each month to meet the requirements. My income comes from a legitimate pension also, but I choose to keep money in the bank rather than hassle with having to transfer each month. The horse is still dead...

Edited November 16, 2019 by BertM

[evadgib]

49 minutes ago, Mr Smithy said:

Mmm -- My income comes from two, legitimate easily verified UK government sources - The DWP and the NHS pension scheme. 

Both of which, along with the FCO (Embassy) and your sending bank are hamstrung by GDPR & lack of man hours as explained.