zydeco Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 3 hours ago, elviajero said: It doesn't really matter what the letters say. The arrangement immigration have with the embassies is that they "verify" the income. The only way to truly verify the income is to get confirmation direct from the source of the income. So, does Canada and New Zealand, then, actually verify the income? Or just continue to say they do? Are they able to access private and public pensions in the home country and "verify" the income for their letters? Do they have similar privacy laws to the US and UK? If so, how do they get around them to "verify?" Or did just the US, UK, and Australian embassies have their feet held to the fire? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fforest1 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, zydeco said: So, does Canada and New Zealand, then, actually verify the income? Or just continue to say they do? Are they able to access private and public pensions in the home country and "verify" the income for their letters? Do they have similar privacy laws to the US and UK? If so, how do they get around them to "verify?" Or did just the US, UK, and Australian embassies have their feet held to the fire? Or did just the US, UK, and Australian embassies have their feet held to the fire? This is the correct answer...... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post elviajero Posted November 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, zydeco said: So, does Canada and New Zealand, then, actually verify the income? Or just continue to say they do? Are they able to access private and public pensions in the home country and "verify" the income for their letters? Do they have similar privacy laws to the US and UK? If so, how do they get around them to "verify?" Or did just the US, UK, and Australian embassies have their feet held to the fire? As far as I know no embassy actually verifies the income from the source. It would not be worth their time to do so. All I can say is that the UK and US have the largest number of expats getting these letters. The US affidavit was wide open to fraud as it didn't require the applicant to provide any proof to the embassy whatsoever; and the UK embassy accepted pretty much anything including emailed copies that were easily faked. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Moonlover Posted November 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 16, 2019 3 hours ago, elviajero said: It doesn't really matter what the letters say. The arrangement immigration have with the embassies is that they "verify" the income. The only way to truly verify the income is to get confirmation direct from the source of the income. This is quite true and quite a few of have already done so to the satisfaction of immigration. We don't need the embassy do it for us. I did myself and saved 52 GBP plus postage. This is all 'water under the bridge'. Move on. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post zydeco Posted November 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, evadgib said: The short answer is that the Thai authorities wanted and expected to hold Embassies feet-to-the-fire in a 'do-yer-know-who-I am?' sort of way if applicants were subsequently found to have told porkies in order to obtain their letters. Consular duties do NOT include acting as guarantor for passport holders abroad. If host Govts want more information they are expected to be able to verify it themselves instead of insisting upon a letter from the headmaster. HTH Then, it would have been Thailand escalating a diplomatic conflict with the US, the UK, and Australia. And Thailand could have expected repercussions that would have hurt Thailand far greater than Thailand could have hurt the Big Three. But instead the Big Three threw their own citizens under the bus and continued to have champagne toasts and eat cucumber sandwiches with the generals. And what have they got out of it? Zilch. As Thailand moves ever more securely into the status of a Chinese satrapy. Edited November 16, 2019 by zydeco 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post evadgib Posted November 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 16, 2019 36 minutes ago, zydeco said: Then, it would have been Thailand escalating a diplomatic conflict with the US, the UK, and Australia. And Thailand could have expected repercussions that would have hurt Thailand far greater than Thailand could have hurt the Big Three. But instead the Big Three threw their own citizens under the bus and continued to have champagne toasts and eat cucumber sandwiches with the generals. And what have they got out of it? Zilch. As Thailand moves ever more securely into the status of a Chinese satrapy. 'The Embassy aint doing Nuffink' rolls off the keyboard a little too easily whenever expectation exceeds reality. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJack54 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 1 hour ago, zydeco said: Then, it would have been Thailand escalating a diplomatic conflict with the US, the UK, and Australia. And Thailand could have expected repercussions that would have hurt Thailand far greater than Thailand could have hurt the Big Three. But instead the Big Three threw their own citizens under the bus and continued to have champagne toasts and eat cucumber sandwiches with the generals. And what have they got out of it? Zilch. As Thailand moves ever more securely into the status of a Chinese satrapy. Rubbish. There is no such thing as "income letter". Just one example, au provided certification of Sat Dec. All that was is to verify your statement. I attended au embassy on unrelated matter and asked senior au employee about this. Her reply..." We never should have been providing stat dec. They have zero authority outside of Australia. BTW, how can any embassy VERIFY statement re income. The many other embassies are a fraud 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, mikebell said: also ask why we cannot share HMRC’s pension databases. Unfortunately the UK’s Data Protection laws prohibit organisations, including Government departments, from providing personal information to third parties about customer details. I am American and don't know about the UK but I am willing to bet the same as below applies to the UK. The same claim has being made about the US refusal to share income information from their databases. Though the US routinely shares such information with financial institutions, such as mortgage providers. They simply require that this third party entities are certified to receive such information. Furthermore the petitioner can sign a permission for such information to be shared, nullifying privacy concerns. In fact the application for an income certification is IMO a De Facto permission for release. I suggest the OP researches to see if the above applies to the UK, and if it does confront the embassy with it. I personally don't need a certification letter, I am in the process of activating dual nationality (for reasons unrelated to the certification) with a country that provides an income certification letter, and if such time arrives where I need the income certification letter I will exercise that option. Edited November 16, 2019 by sirineou 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jacko45k Posted November 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, potless said: Then how is it possible that other countries are able to supply such letters without any problems? zydeco already beat me to it with a post. Have you seen the letters every other country still issues? It would be interesting to know how they are worded. Certainly in the case of the USA and Australia, didn't the letters basically say the subject had sworn (affidavit or stat dec... whatever) and no verification had taken place. The British Embassy, claimed they had viewed paperwork, but not verified anything? I believe the problems started because Thai Immigration wanted the Embassies to truly verify income. Some countries can do this, many cannot. I expect that because the Nigerian Embassy issues a letter saying Omongo does get a pension, that does NOT obligate the British one to issue statements it has not verified. Edited November 16, 2019 by jacko45k 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyboy2018 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 18 hours ago, MRToMRT said: They care only about their little diplomatic world of privilege and associated people. They don't want to deal with the likes of me. ______________ Saying that, in this particular case, I would have done the same thing in their shoes. The Thais wanted a credible document and it is too hard to provide it for everyone. Its the Thais at fault - and we are all now living through the tightening of their system because it was made too easy for undesirables. Lets be honest Thailand is full of dodgy foreigners whether they be Brit ex crims, Amercian con artists, Pakistani forgers, Indian mafia, Iranian scammers, Australian hells angels, etc, etc and the changes to the Thai system made by Imm don't really bother the undesirables because they are used to getting around these things. A tax return form accepted by the IR, regarding an income on which tax has been paid should be sufficient. The the British Embassy staff are the worst in the world. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zydeco Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 10 hours ago, DrJack54 said: Rubbish. There is no such thing as "income letter". Just one example, au provided certification of Sat Dec. All that was is to verify your statement. I attended au embassy on unrelated matter and asked senior au employee about this. Her reply..." We never should have been providing stat dec. They have zero authority outside of Australia. BTW, how can any embassy VERIFY statement re income. The many other embassies are a fraud I take it, then, that Australia no longer issues the income letter anywhere else in the world either? The US does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poohy Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 From reading a brief synopsis You nasty expats spoiling our days, get stuffed we are far too busy to care about you! 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BoBoTheClown Posted November 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2019 Thailand is no longer the place for poor Western expats. The golden years are over. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJack54 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 45 minutes ago, zydeco said: I take it, then, that Australia no longer issues the income letter anywhere else in the world either? The US does. Please post what an "income letter" looks like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertM Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, DrJack54 said: Please post what an "income letter" looks like. I'm sure he's using "income letter" as a general term to describe an Income Affidavit from the US embassy or a Statutory Declaration from the AUS embassy or whatever was being used by the UK embassy. He's welcome to use income letter as a general term if he wishes... Edited November 17, 2019 by BertM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterw42 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, DrJack54 said: Please post what an "income letter" looks like. Google "Australian Statutory Declaration" to see the blank form.. When they did them, you just wrote "my name is fred smith I make 1 million baht a year" You signed it and the consulate stamped it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BertM Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Peterw42 said: Google "Australian Statutory Declaration" to see the blank form.. When they did them, you just wrote "my name is fred smith I make 1 million baht a year" You signed it and the consulate stamped it. Great post... But, I think the person you replied to was just being pedantic about someone using the term "income letter" instead of using the actual term "Statutory Declaration". I don't believe he was really asking to see what an income letter looks like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJack54 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, BertM said: Great post... But, I think the person you replied to was just being pedantic about someone using the term "income letter" instead of using the actual term "Statutory Declaration". I don't believe he was really asking to see what an income letter looks like... I was not being pedantic. I was stating that it was a stat dec not an income letter. I am only relating what an official stated to me at au embassy. If she is wrong so be it. Her explanation... " stat dec is only for use WITHIN au" IF that's the case then cannot be provided for Thai imm purposes. She went on to say that the au embassy should never have been providing them. I'm only relating what I was told. BTW I had the impression she had been in job for some years and in fact had a trainee with her. Aside from that I do not believe that embassies are equipped or qualified to check and verify incomes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DannyCarlton Posted November 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, BertM said: Great post... But, I think the person you replied to was just being pedantic about someone using the term "income letter" instead of using the actual term "Statutory Declaration". I don't believe he was really asking to see what an income letter looks like... British Embassy issued Income Letter on reciept of evidence of income in UK. I always sent an original payslip from my pension company, original P60 (annual tax return) and copies of 3 months bank statements. More than adequate for verification. At the original meeting of embassy staff and immigration, where it was announced that verification would be required, I believe that it was primarily aimed at the US Embassy and possibly the Australian Embassy who didn't carry out any real verification. The British Embassy was never their target. As the British Embassy was downsizing in both accomodation and staff, it's my firm belief that the British Embassy used the Thai Immigration announcement as an excuse to cease the letters. This is born out by the fact that a number of other embassies, who use the same verification process as the British Embassy did, continue to produce their letters to this day with zero comebacks from Thai Immigration. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Roy Baht Posted November 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2019 Regardless of all the ranting and raving, or whether the document supplied by embassies actually certified income or was a mere affidavit, I have yet to hear of a single case in which someone who satisfied the income requirement was unable to demonstrate it by other (perhaps less convenient) means. The people complaining seem just to be those who do not satisfy the visa income requirement. Period. That simple fact is no one's embassy's fault. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DannyCarlton Posted November 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Roy Baht said: I have yet to hear of a single case in which someone who satisfied the income requirement was unable to demonstrate it by other (perhaps less convenient) means. True, but a LOT less convenient. Obtaining a British Embassy letter was simplicity itself and a one time annualy procedure. Now I have to ensure that at least 65k baht is transferred to my Thai bank account every month, within certain dates whether I need it or not and at greater cost than before. Then I have the rigmarole of obtaining 12 months of bank statements from my Thai bank, obtaining an account verification letter from them, updating my book on the day, after making a transaction and making a sheaf of photocopies before going to the IO. And I still have the worry of rejection due to the current inconsistencies between IOs. Only the other day, I learned from Ubon Joe that Jomtien Immigration require proof that the money comes from a pension, I don't know what documentation they require for this so still stand a chance of being rejected for my retirement extension next month. Certainly not easy and stress free compared to obtaining an annual income letter from the embassy, which was never questioned by IO. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post soalbundy Posted November 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2019 23 hours ago, steve187 said: was always going to be the result. the UK government do not care about expats. Well that goes without saying really. We have cut our apron strings from mummy and now she doesn't want to know. I can't complain as I haven't lived in the UK for 50 years and pay no tax there but I do feel sorry for those who do still pay tax and get nothing back in return. If you are British you must know already that the UK isn't very citizen orientated anyway except at election time which is why I could never understand this clamouring for "let's take our country back", you never had it. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post stereolab Posted November 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2019 21 hours ago, zydeco said: Was it? Why? The UK, as well as the US and Australia, could have simply continued issuing the letters and leave it up to Thai Immigration to accept them or not. What were the "Thai authorities" going to do? Launch an invasion of the embassies? Are the Canadian and New Zealand embassies continuing to issue letters that are accepted by Thai Immigration? If so, are they substantially different from those issued by the US, UK, and Australia? Do they not have privacy laws, too? They could easily have continued the issuing of letters, if they are providing to the person named on the application form, therefore no third party involvement. Issue the letter based purely upon P60 information held by HMRC. I guarantee the Embassy could easily gain access to that database. 50GBP per letter, it is a no-brainer. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surasak Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 I, like any other UK tax payer living in Thailand, can download a statement of my monthly income and tax from the HMRC web site. Why can't the British consulate accept that as proof of my earnings? Or is that too simple? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zydeco Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 hour ago, DrJack54 said: I was not being pedantic. I was stating that it was a stat dec not an income letter. I am only relating what an official stated to me at au embassy. If she is wrong so be it. Her explanation... " stat dec is only for use WITHIN au" IF that's the case then cannot be provided for Thai imm purposes. She went on to say that the au embassy should never have been providing them. I'm only relating what I was told. BTW I had the impression she had been in job for some years and in fact had a trainee with her. Aside from that I do not believe that embassies are equipped or qualified to check and verify incomes. You are simply trying to distract. Please, stop it. The title of the topic addresses "income letters. The reply from the British embassy specifically stated "income letters." When discussing the actions related to all three embassies, I maintained the use of "income letters," although I used to receive an "affidavit" from the US embassy. Using the term "income letters" is apparently easy for everyone in this topic to understand, except for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyCarlton Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 Just now, Surasak said: I, like any other UK tax payer living in Thailand, can download a statement of my monthly income and tax from the HMRC web site. Why can't the British consulate accept that as proof of my earnings? Or is that too simple? They always did accept that. Why they won't do it now? Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniggie Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said: At the original meeting of embassy staff and immigration, where it was announced that verification would be required, I believe that it was primarily aimed at the US Embassy and possibly the Australian Embassy who didn't carry out any real verification. The British Embassy was never their target. As the British Embassy was downsizing in both accomodation and staff, it's my firm belief that the British Embassy used the Thai Immigration announcement as an excuse to cease the letters. This is born out by the fact that a number of other embassies, who use the same verification process as the British Embassy did, continue to produce their letters to this day with zero comebacks from Thai Immigration. Exactly. Though I think that what appears to be a dislike by the Thai authorities for english speaking nationals may have had something to do with it. After all, there does appear to be other embassies still relying on stat decs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJack54 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 minute ago, zydeco said: You are simply trying to distract. Please, stop it. The title of the topic addresses "income letters. The reply from the British embassy specifically stated "income letters." When discussing the actions related to all three embassies, I maintained the use of "income letters," although I used to receive an "affidavit" from the US embassy. Using the term "income letters" is apparently easy for everyone in this topic to understand, except for you. So USA provides "affidavit". AU used to provide " stat dec". That's 2 out of 3. I'm still interested to see what an "income letter" looks like. Previous poster stating that UK provided income letter. Point is none verify the income. Main reason is they cannot. Again as I pointed out the embassy staffer told me that au stat decs cannot be used outside of au. Pretty good reason to stop providing them for use with Thai imm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyCarlton Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said: So USA provides "affidavit". AU used to provide " stat dec". That's 2 out of 3. I'm still interested to see what an "income letter" looks like. Previous poster stating that UK provided income letter. Point is none verify the income. Main reason is they cannot. Again as I pointed out the embassy staffer told me that au stat decs cannot be used outside of au. Pretty good reason to stop providing them for use with Thai imm. British Embassy income letters were verified. US affidavits and Aus stat decs weren't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sheryl Posted November 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2019 17 hours ago, Mr Smithy said: It is interesting that only four embassies refuse to certify income. The others continue to provide letters. Only 3 not 4. The Danes resumed though only for government pensions. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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