How many British expats applied for a proof of income letter in 2018?

[Just Weird]

1 minute ago, DannyCarlton said:

Well you've made enough replies to the thread

I've made one to this thread!  Ok, two with this response.

[DannyCarlton]

16 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

I voted I don't care but really I'm dying to know how many British expats caught out and prolly homeward bound. Or illegal agent route because they never had the dosh in the first place.

 

Not nearly the backlash from the Americans. Practically nill.

Probably none. Those that didn't have the dosh in the first place have always used agents, not income letters.

 

As for the Americans, which the original change was primarily aimed at, they've probably already gone.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

Not true. It was a simple process of checking the the documentation you sent with your application and processing the letter.

Checking how? That it hasn't been photoshopped?

 

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

Done by a team of Thai admin staff.

Verifying income from the source of the income would tae a lot of work and hassle. 

 

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

Latterly even the letter itself was signed by a Thai on behalf of the vice consul. The reason that they ceased the letters was to get rid of the Thai staff and free up office space in prperation for moving to a new smaller embassy. Other notary services were discontinued at the same time. The £52 fee more than paid for the Thai admin costs.

Pure speculation.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

Replies from whom? Staff checked the documents and processed the letters. Didn't communicate with anyone.

And they are saying that the current process of accepting - without question - the validity of the document isn't good enough for them to be able to confirm to immigration that they've verified the income.

[DannyCarlton]

6 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

I've made one to this thread!  Ok, two with this response.

And how many in this virtually identical thread?

 

 

[DannyCarlton]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

And they are saying that the current process of accepting - without question - the validity of the document isn't good enough for them to be able to confirm to immigration that they've verified the income.

Which is a lie to cover up the true reason as the 80 embassys that continue to provide letters can attest to.

[DannyCarlton]

7 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Checking how? That it hasn't been photoshopped?

Try photoshopping an original P60.

[elviajero]

7 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Try photoshopping an original P60.

I haven't, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

 

You do realise that employers print P60's. I could knock one out using my payroll software in minutes. And there are people on the internet using such software to provide people "replacement" payslips/P60's. 

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, elviajero said:

I haven't, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

 

You do realise that employers print P60's. I could knock one out using my payroll software in minutes. And there are people on the internet using such software to provide people "replacement" payslips/P60's. 

It's printed on a particular paper with a complex pattern on the back, actually 2 pieces glued together. Not that easy to fool someone who handles several of them every day. For people who didn't have the required income, much easier just to pay an agent 15k and forget the letter.

[DannyCarlton]

28 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Pure speculation.

Maybe but it's the only one that fits all the facts. The embassy's explanation has more holes in it than a swiss cheese.

[elviajero]

4 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

It's printed on a particular paper with a complex pattern on the back, actually 2 pieces glued together. Not that easy to fool someone who handles several of them every day. For people who didn't have the required income, much easier just to pay an agent 15k and forget the letter.

Rubbish. My accountant issues P60's every year printed from a printer in their office!

[GordonP]

Interestingly, my 2016,7+8 requests for "income letter" from the British Embassy had to be accompanied by;

 

1. A current letter from my pension provider confirming the annual/monthly pension amount. 

 

2. Copies of my UK bank account for the previous three months showing receipt of said pension. 

 

 

 

Was that not a comprehensive validation? 

[Toadie]

Embassies cannot verify income as stated in earlier tread with response from British Embassy.

 

Some countries embassies have previously provided unverified income verification letters which Thai authorities have since questioned.

 

Maybe I could get one of these income verification letters to take out a bank loan.

[Max69xl]

On 11/16/2019 at 3:06 PM, elviajero said:

I seem to recall the Embassy quoted as saying it was about 25/day. That puts it at around 6.5K/year.

 

Actually verifying the income for 25 people everyday from the many different income sources would be an administrative nightmare and often impractical. That being the reason it’s been stopped.

That was not the official reason it was stopped,but it was the reason the UK Embassy wanted people to believe.

[Max69xl]

8 hours ago, nchuckle said:

That really depends on what constitutes 'verification '. I had to send in 3 months bank statements which clearly documented my monthly rental income and pension payments. Yes you say they could be forged ,but no more than any document could and most organisations accept bank statements as proof. So do you think all the other embassies still providing letters are doing much more than that?

The other embassies don't accept bank statements,they require stamped and signed documents showing income/pension. Those papers are not something you forge down in the basement. 

[Max69xl]

1 hour ago, Toadie said:

Embassies cannot verify income as stated in earlier tread with response from British Embassy.

 

Some countries embassies have previously provided unverified income verification letters which Thai authorities have since questioned.

 

Maybe I could get one of these income verification letters to take out a bank loan.

So far there are only income letters from the UK, US and the Australian embassies that Immigration have questioned. I guess you haven't seen what a proper income letter looks like. 

[ericthai]

7 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Not true. It was a simple process of checking the the documentation you sent with your application and processing the letter. Done by a team of Thai admin staff. Latterly even the letter itself was signed by a Thai on behalf of the vice consul. The reason that they ceased the letters was to get rid of the Thai staff and free up office space in prperation for moving to a new smaller embassy. Other notary services were discontinued at the same time. The £52 fee more than paid for the Thai admin costs.

Hmm, Sounds good, but is the US embassy moving or needing more room too? Just asking as they stopped the letters at the same time. 

[treetops]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

Rubbish. My accountant issues P60's every year printed from a printer in their office!

Mine have been supplied electronically for the past few years, in an easy to modify pdf file.

[richard_smith237]

Verification requires more than looking at a document someone has handed over. 

Freedom of information laws make verification of income statements extremely difficult even for a government body. 

 

 

[Blue bruce]

Don't say its impossible. If i walkedinto the U.S embassy with a statement from my U.S. government stating my S.S. payment this is legal proff. Further more if they wanted to verify it all it would take is a few tapes on the computer with your Social Security number to verify your statement. So don't say its impossible

[richard_smith237]

8 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

From the British Embassy's POV that's just false and slanderous. I have never heard of a case of anyone submitting forged documents to verify their incomes. Can you quote one?

 

 

Can you find any proof that there were not scores of spurious income claims? Neither can the US, UK and Aus Embassies without significant extra work and an alternation to existing freedoms of information laws. 

 

The issue exists with the Thai Authorities requiring notarised verification of something which cannot properly be verified.

 

Why do other embassies continue to verify income? Maybe their laws on freedom of information differ or their notary system is not legally binding to the same degree? (I’ve no idea, but I understand why those who don’t have now refused).

[Max69xl]

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Can you find any proof that there were not scores of spurious income claims? Neither can the US, UK and Aus Embassies without significant extra work and an alternation to existing freedoms of information laws. 

 

The issue exists with the Thai Authorities requiring notarised verification of something which cannot properly be verified.

 

Why do other embassies continue to verify income? Maybe their laws on freedom of information differ or their notary system is not legally binding to the same degree? (I’ve no idea, but I understand why those who don’t have now refused).

"Maybe their laws on freedom of information differ or their notary system is not legally binding to the same degree?"

What are you rambling about? What has freedom of information got to do with a stamped and signed document showing 100% correct government pension? Plus exactly same type of documents showing pensions from insurance companies and/or banks. These documents (4 of them) are what my embassy/consulate requires to be able to issue an income letter for Immigration. It takes the embassy/consulate maybe 30 minutes to transfer each sum from my documents to the income letter. Then it's stamped and signed. Immigration looks at it 10 seconds and is satisfied. That's the way it should work. 

[phutoie2]

I got a letter early this year, used my P60 as evidence, as in many years before. Successfully got a retirement extension using combo method in April. 

Haven't a scooby what to do next year. 

Four of my fellow "low life Brits" are traveling down to Pattaya today to see a certain person. I have always been legal here, no dodgy stuff, been married for 13 years so have a few more options. 

 

[DannyCarlton]

6 hours ago, ericthai said:

Hmm, Sounds good, but is the US embassy moving or needing more room too? Just asking as they stopped the letters at the same time. 

It's a pain having 2 virtually identical threads running at the same time.

 

From the other thread:

 

[DannyCarlton]

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Can you find any proof that there were not scores of spurious income claims?

Much more importantly, before making totally false and slanderous accusations, can you find even one shred of evidence?

 

In the case of the British Embassy, those that didn't have the nessesary income to qualify for an income letter, rather than try to create and submit forged documents to the embassy, a very risky enterprise, simply payed an agent 10-15k baht annually who did everything for them and they odtained their extensions free of stress. As they do now.

 

In the case of US citizens:

 

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, phutoie2 said:

Four of my fellow "low life Brits" are traveling down to Pattaya today to see a certain person.

By doing tis, they aren't doing anything illegal and the extensions they obtain will be totally legitimate. Many people have decided on this option since the letters have ceased.

[new2here]

On 11/16/2019 at 3:35 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Thats exactly why some Embassies stopped with the Verification on Income letter.

 

It was impossible for them to be able to accurately verify the income of all requests without a larger team, significant leg work and cost. 

 

Too many people were outright lying on their income claims and the Embassies were unwilling to sign off on a legal document they were unable to verify. 

 

Of course, people blamed the Embassies for their change of policy, however, really its the immigration requirement which is awkward for some to meet and when they can't they unfairly complain at their Embassy for not being willing to verify / notaries their spurious income claim. 

 

Basically, some folk are upset they can't use their Embassy to lie for them. 

I agree with the first part - the embassies didn’t really have the ability to definitively say that the income stated was in fact as it was self-reported to be... sure, I’ll bet that for some (I’m not a british citizen so I can’t comment on the U.K. systems specifics) people’s incomes would hav been verified as it perhaps came from wholly state controlled sources... but I think for others that may not have been the case...

 

 so... to that end, I can see why an embassy would be reluctant to “sign off” on such a document.

 

as to the last part... were there some who flat out lied (knowingly presented false data)?  I’m sure there were... but.. it is my opinion only, that these folks were probably in the minority... but I cede that any level of fraud does tend to diminish credibility in the process - and that puts its legitimacy into question by outside parties.

[blackcab]

The answer to the poll can be found here.

 

Thank you to all those who took part, including @007 RED who submitted a very accurate set of numbers here.

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, allanos said:

If the British Embassy were able to issue income letters for circa 40 years, having verified the submissions or not, what was the reason for the change of heart NOW? Speculation and reasons put forward so far do not really hold water.

Are you seriously trying to say there have been no changes in circumstances, laws, regulations and requirements etc both on the UK and on the Thailand side in the last 40 years that may have affected this? For one, forty years ago, no letters were obligated from the British Embassy in pursuance of Extensions based on income, in Thailand. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by jacko45k

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

By doing tis, they aren't doing anything illegal and the extensions they obtain will be totally legitimate. Many people have decided on this option since the letters have ceased.

 

Corrupt perhaps, rather than illegal. I agree that their extension stamps are as legitimate as mine.

 

Some may not need to travel with the rural immigration offices now openly offering a similar ‘service’.