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Over 80 on OA Extensions for 14 years. Chiang Mai.


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On 11/30/2019 at 3:29 PM, Momofarang said:

It is page 41. What transpires here is that the Moh anticipated our two problems i.e existing covers and high risk applicants, but Immigration has been two dumb and lazy to implement anything sensible.

On the existing covers I think the problem may have been OIC and local insurance lobby.

 

And for that matter likely they who refused to set up anything for the uninsurable. Imm would need someone to implement it. 

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15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

They" are not a monolith.  The people who formulate rules and policies  ate quite apart from the rank and file IOs who end up implementing them. It is the latter who are advising people on the non-O option.

 

Doesn't mean those who drafted the Police Order are OK with the idea. Probably at this stage not even aware it is happening.

Yes, I would agree-  it is the people on the bottom who have to deal with each of us that are advising a way to stay . In addition, it is also these people the agents see an have interaction with.

 

IMO the Thia cabinet merely gave the go ahead based on the MOH reccommendation and the  MOH and hospital/insurance lobby.  

 

The MOH has passed the buck back to the Cabinet but IMO it's not a Cabinet issue.  The immigration Bureau establish the police order and since there was no order indicating that they could not Grandfather people- it is the Immigration Bureau that can and should clarify what the order  means. 

 

IMO- reports have indicated that people on prior Non O-A's are arriving  at airports and getting stamped in  with a one year stamp.  There is no logical reason why someone in the same category who goes for an extension is not treated the same way- grandfathered.

 

I don't have the answer on how to make it happen= only that it must happen as an initial step and then the whole issue of Insurance can move forward.

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14 hours ago, Thaidream said:

...The immigration Bureau establish the police order and since there was no order indicating that they could not Grandfather people- it is the Immigration Bureau that can and should clarify what the order  means..

 

Totally agree. The problem is how to get that to happen. The best we can do is keep writing/calling our Embassies so that they in turn continue to press Government for clarification.

 

The airport situation got cleared up pretty fast (though every so often some IO who didn't get the message still gives  a problem) because it was causing major disruption and drama in a very visible/high profile environment. The extension issue plays put on a amall scale at offices scattered throughout the country.

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15 hours ago, Sheryl said:

"They" are not a monolith.  The people who formulate rules and policies  ate quite apart from the rank and file IOs who end up implementing them. It is the latter who are advising people on the non-O option.

 

Doesn't mean those who drafted the Police Order are OK with the idea. Probably at this stage not even aware it is happening.

I do, however, think that it would take an extremely brave rank and file IO to run the risk of defying the will of their masters in Immigration Bureau HQ by suggesting a new non-O visa as a way of avoiding the insurance requirement. And rank and file IO’s are not exactly renowned for their courage!

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1 minute ago, OJAS said:

I do, however, think that it would take an extremely brave rank and file IO to run the risk of defying the will of their masters in Immigration Bureau HQ by suggesting a new non-O visa as a way of avoiding the insurance requirement. And rank and file IO’s are not exactly renowned for their courage!

Immigration had nothing to do with the implementation of the mandatory insurance. It was the Ministry of Public Health. Immigration have to enforce it,they don't have to like it. 

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4 hours ago, Max69xl said:

Immigration had nothing to do with the implementation of the mandatory insurance. It was the Ministry of Public Health. Immigration have to enforce it,they don't have to like it. 

This is the key. And it should have lead to a clear division of tasks:

a) MoPH issues HI certificate to foreigners, this would have involved a new process, strictly within MoPH,

b) Immigration requires a valid MoPH certificate (or "under consideration" certificate to issue new extensions.

But the idiots we are dealing with obviously have never heard of Business Process Engineering.

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23 hours ago, OJAS said:

In the case of the uninsurable brigade at least, then, if what you say is correct, it is those who, by virtue of age and/or poor health, are those who are the most unlikely to be able to undertake the necessary physical trip out of Thailand in order to obtain the necessary non-O visa

This whole thing is such a bizarre joke, even the Thais would "get" the punch line.... hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

But, as I approach 80, the only time I might ever be accosted for paperwork related to a valid extension would be if stopped for a driving infraction. But soon, my driving days will come to an end, and I'll have to have a driver. Then, I could peacefully forget doing anymore extensions, as, not being Nigerian, I won't be wrapped up in any overstay raids, or a check on the road, as I no longer drive.

 

If I have to go to hospital, do they check your extension credentials? I don't think so -- unless maybe if you're an inpatient for a length of time.... So, if I'm in a coma, and found to be in overstay, what then? Heck, ship me home in coach, as I wouldn't know the difference between that and a comfortable "up front" seat.

 

More to reality: I live close to Vivo Bene, a long term care facility. I can only assume, unless the Thais really are absurd, that the current inmates aren't having to contend with insurance coverage schemes when they renew their one-year extensions. Thus, as my (potential) dementia, or whatever, advances, and I finally move to Vivo Bene, this insurance nonsense disappears....as I can only assume that Vivo includes your insurability in their package plans....

 

Anyway, getting too old to figure out all this <deleted>. If I'm going to be denied an extension next year when I once again apply, I'll just not apply. Chance of being found in overstay (again, if I don't drive), is probably near zero. Why do I have the feeling that so many geezers have already come to this conclusion -- and have lived comfortably (or will) to their end here in Thailand.....

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34 minutes ago, JimGant said:

More to reality: I live close to Vivo Bene, a long term care facility. I can only assume, unless the Thais really are absurd, that the current inmates aren't having to contend with insurance coverage schemes when they renew their one-year extensions. Thus, as my (potential) dementia, or whatever, advances, and I finally move to Vivo Bene, this insurance nonsense disappears....as I can only assume that Vivo includes your insurability in their package plans....

 

While you would think so.. Theres no legal exceptions.. The case of the woman taking her mum out of care in Chiang Mai due to income proving inability (despite the cost of care being as much as the income that had to be proven) and moving her to Philippines care shows how difficult all that can become. You would have thought some form of medical extension could be arranged in long term care, but dont think thats done. 

 

35 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Anyway, getting too old to figure out all this <deleted>. If I'm going to be denied an extension next year when I once again apply, I'll just not apply. Chance of being found in overstay (again, if I don't drive), is probably near zero. Why do I have the feeling that so many geezers have already come to this conclusion -- and have lived comfortably (or will) to their end here in Thailand.....

Maybe maybe not.. Once you go onto overstay then thier hands are tied by automatic deportation and potential blacklisting issues.. Not a risk thats worth taking when in poor health. 

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1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Chance of being found in overstay (again, if I don't drive), is probably near zero.

Until the friend of a friend of your housekeeper hears you are overstay and calls the Immigration hotline to turn you in for the reward. Not trying to be funny. Immigration is trying to build up a network of informers to get people. Didn't someone just turn in some German on five day overstay for the reward???

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13 hours ago, JimGant said:

If I'm going to be denied an extension next year when I once again apply, I'll just not apply. Chance of being found in overstay (again, if I don't drive), is probably near zero. Why do I have the feeling that so many geezers have already come to this conclusion -- and have lived comfortably (or will) to their end here in Thailand.....

Are you married? If so, just apply (with the required paperwork of course) at your next extension for reason of MARRIAGE instead of RETIREMENT.  The lower financial requirements for that are a nice bonus too.

If not married, have a nice holiday trip abroad and return Visa-exempt (make sure if you have a Re-entry permit to have it cancelled at your local IO before leaving).  Then apply for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa - retirement at your local IO.  And in the last month of that Non Imm O Visa, apply for a 1 year extension of stay based on that Non Imm O - retirement Visa.

From then on you are in exactly the same situation as you are now, only difference being that when on Non Imm O there is NO health-insurance requirement. 

The conversion process is a nuisance and waste of time/effort, but for sure it beats living with the Sword of Damocles of being found out to be living on overstay...

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4 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

The conversion process is a nuisance and waste of time/effort, but for sure it beats living with the Sword of Damocles of being found out to be living on overstay...

Yeah, probably -- especially if you're looking at jail time. But if just facing deportation, I'm now facing self-deportation by being unable to renew my retirement extension, 'cause I can't get Thai insurance. And I'm sure they'll close the loophole that says retirees here on Non Imm O visas are different from those here on Non Imm O-A visas. Unfortunately, when they realize every retiree's the same, after his visa of whatever flavor expires, instead of grandfathering O-A extensions, they'll just include the O extenders with the O-A crowd.

Gosh, what meaty substance for a Thai version of Saturday Night Live: Buffoon bureaucrats, tricked into their buffoonery by corrupt, but astute other bureaucrats; in concert with a salivating insurance lobby.; plus hoards of farangs disappearing over the border to get different visas, leading to the same retirement result. Just trying to figure which role Alex Baldwin, with some eye work, would play -- probably the buffoon.

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46 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Yeah, probably -- especially if you're looking at jail time. But if just facing deportation, I'm now facing self-deportation by being unable to renew my retirement extension,

'just facing deportation' ?? Have you seen the state of the IDC ?? I think an 80 year old would be lucky to survive the experience.. 

 

The choice between yourself, with planning and time as a luxury, choosing to make safe arrangements and being arrested and processed through the IDC at 80 is not a choice.. I have seen a 30 something 6 ft body builder shrink visibly and get beaten up etc over the few weeks it took to get processed.. 

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2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

'just facing deportation' ?? Have you seen the state of the IDC ?? I think an 80 year old would be lucky to survive the experience.. 

 

The choice between yourself, with planning and time as a luxury, choosing to make safe arrangements and being arrested and processed through the IDC at 80 is not a choice.. I have seen a 30 something 6 ft body builder shrink visibly and get beaten up etc over the few weeks it took to get processed.. 

That's where I don't have the facts -- do all overstayers go to prison? But, yeah, I don't wish to be a test case to a situation caused by a Thai Catch-22 law. This situation has got to get better, right? There's got to be someone, who's not corrupt, and who is high enough up, to remedy all of this....? Oh, yeah -- I forgot. I'm in Thailand. Sigh.

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18 hours ago, JimGant said:

That's where I don't have the facts -- do all overstayers go to prison? But, yeah, I don't wish to be a test case to a situation caused by a Thai Catch-22 law. This situation has got to get better, right? There's got to be someone, who's not corrupt, and who is high enough up, to remedy all of this....? Oh, yeah -- I forgot. I'm in Thailand. Sigh.

My understanding is in the VAST majority of cases yes, you have to be arrested, processed through the IDC and shipped out.. A process that isnt a day or two. 

I have read that there have been some 'pre approved' situations where people mentally incapacitated, or medically unfit had made specific arrangements with immigration, pre purchased exit tickets, and were allowed to be arrested to a police cell or even hospital supervision, as part of a mercy deal, however this was part of a pre negotiated arrangement of leaving not a random arrest. 

 

I helped (bringing food, bribe money, etc) 2 cases of deportation in the mid 00s on Phuket, and the IDC there at that time was borderline midnight run type rough.. couple hundred non Thais (mostly burmese) in a room with a toilet hole in the corner sleeping in other guys urine, food that was inedible, etc etc.. One got pretty beaten up and genuinely feared for his survival. A big strapping, tattoo'ed gym guy. 

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1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

My understanding is in the VAST majority of cases yes, you have to be arrested, processed through the IDC and shipped out.. A process that isnt a day or two. 

I have read that there have been some 'pre approved' situations where people mentally incapacitated, or medically unfit had made specific arrangements with immigration, pre purchased exit tickets, and were allowed to be arrested to a police cell or even hospital supervision, as part of a mercy deal, however this was part of a pre negotiated arrangement of leaving not a random arrest. 

 

I helped (bringing food, bribe money, etc) 2 cases of deportation in the mid 00s on Phuket, and the IDC there at that time was borderline midnight run type rough.. couple hundred non Thais (mostly burmese) in a room with a toilet hole in the corner sleeping in other guys urine, food that was inedible, etc etc.. One got pretty beaten up and genuinely feared for his survival. A big strapping, tattoo'ed gym guy. 

Hmmm. Guess I best reevaluate my options...

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4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Hmmm. Guess I best reevaluate my options...

Re-posted #163 >

Are you married? If so, just apply (with the required paperwork of course) at your next extension for reason of MARRIAGE instead of RETIREMENT.  The lower financial requirements for that are a nice bonus too.

If not married, have a nice holiday trip abroad and return Visa-exempt (make sure if you have a Re-entry permit to have it cancelled at your local IO before leaving).  Then apply for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa - retirement at your local IO.  And in the last month of that Non Imm O Visa, apply for a 1 year extension of stay based on that Non Imm O - retirement Visa.

From then on you are in exactly the same situation as you are now, only difference being that when on Non Imm O there is NO health-insurance requirement. 

The conversion process is a nuisance and waste of time/effort, but for sure it beats living with the Sword of Damocles of being found out to be living on overstay...

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4 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

just apply (with the required paperwork of course) at your next extension for reason of MARRIAGE instead of RETIREMENT. 

Yeah, that might work. Health insurance, even if available at my age, would be prohibitively expensive. A wife, on the other hand *might* be a bargain: No extra cost for room (although might have to spring for a king sized bed); sure, some extra costs for food and maintenance -- but probably less of a cost than health insurance (plus, net out the value of laundry and cooking service, and you may be well ahead....). But, those clever Thais, certainly calculated that if you got a much younger wife, one who wouldn't die early, putting you back in the current predicament -- and had the stamina for long, therapeutic massages to prevent inpatient necessity -- hey, what a great option! Sure, the occasional frying pan to the side of the head might require some doctoring. But this could be totally handled by at-home first aid, thus no cost to the Thai health system. 

 

Guess I'll have to visit my agent to see what kind of marriage package deals he has. Don't recall, however, on my last visit, seeing a glass cage....

 

This whole thing would be funny, if it didn't hit so close to home. Certainly some elements of Thai bureaucracy know this makes Thailand a laughing stock; but the corruption is just too thick to wade through. Those now salivating probably include Mercedes and BMW dealers, whose owners wink and nod at high level gov't cocktail parties. Sad. Oh yeah -- more money available if the Non Imm O and marriage avenues are plugged. Stay tuned.

 

 

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