Over 80 on OA Extensions for 14 years. Chiang Mai.

[bbi1]

15 minutes ago, The Man Who Sold the World said:

Well, the simple solution is to allow a "self-insurance" provision. Yes, a dedicated THB 400k in the bank.

 

There is a specific problem with making a requirement of purchasing something that does not exist (either by age or pre-existing conditions) there are many persons who will not be insured.

 

This specific issue must be addressed and a viable solution established. 

 

Problem is it will take time to implement the solution and for those impacted there is no "simple" solution today. 

 

Good luck to all. This issue will be resolved - it is the "when" that is the real problem. 

The "self-insurance" way with money in the bank sounds fine if they ever did that, but 400k is nothing. It would more likely need to be done this way, a minimum of 2 million baht in the bank and the hospital can automatically direct debit the charges from that account if the person uses their services. That way they won't lose out on people not paying them even if they have funds in the bank, plus procedures for heart attacks or strokes can end up costing huge dollars.

[Krataiboy]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

The head office (or at least the only representatives of it the public can easily contact) is giving conflicting information. And what exactly would someone do if their lical office was not following correct policy?

I based my posting on the latest information I could find published on ThaiVisa Forum: 

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1127756-mandatory-health-insurance-for-non-o-a-visa-effective-from-31-october/?tab=comments#comment-14650255

 

This states the mandatory insurance regulations apply specifically to applicants for new applications for O-A visa outside of Thailand, not individuals already retired here and using an existing O-A visa to obtain annual extensions based on retirement.

 

It also stated that a further "official announcement" could be expected on October 9. I am not aware whether this actually happened or what the outcome was. Incredible, isn't it, that so much confusion should exist for so long without, apparently, a peep of protest from any of the foreign consulates charged with representing our interests.

 

If, as you say, Thai Immigration head office and local branches are in conflict over the new regs, might a possible solution be to obtain something in writing Ministry of Foreign Affairs ([email protected]), which could be printed out and used to confirm one's situation with the local immigration office?

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Krataiboy

[Expattaff1308]

11 minutes ago, bbi1 said:

The "self-insurance" way with money in the bank sounds fine if they ever did that, but 400k is nothing. It would more likely need to be done this way, a minimum of 2 million baht in the bank and the hospital can automatically direct debit the charges from that account if the person uses their services. That way they won't lose out on people not paying them even if they have funds in the bank, plus procedures for heart attacks or strokes can end up costing huge dollars.

400k cover is what the Immigration is insisting on its just the cartlel of companies premiums are double other companies offering the same cover.

When this was first discussed Imm. did say that for those who cannot get cover a self insurance would be accepted but as Sheryl has pointed out somewhere between planning and implementing it has got lost in the system.

Remember those who use the 800k in the bank are not allowed to spend 400k of it, there lies the 400k self finance.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Expattaff1308

[Expattaff1308]

15 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

I based my posting on the latest information I could find published on ThaiVisa Forum: 

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1127756-mandatory-health-insurance-for-non-o-a-visa-effective-from-31-october/?tab=comments#comment-14650255

 

This states the mandatory insurance regulations apply specifically to applicants for new applications for O-A visa outside of Thailand, not individuals already retired here and using an existing O-A visa to obtain annual extensions based on retirement.

 

It also stated that a further "official announcement" could be expected on October 9. I am not aware whether this actually happened or what the outcome was. Incredible, isn't it, that so much confusion should exist for so long without, apparently, a peep of protest from any of the foreign consulates charged with representing our interests.

 

If, as you say, Thai Immigration head office and local branches are in conflict over the new regs, might a possible solution be to obtain something in writing Ministry of Foreign Affairs ([email protected]), which could be printed out and used to confirm one's situation with the local immigration office?

 

Totally agree and in fact a paragraph in that actually says ...

Health insurance is not required for those applying for an extension of stay based on retirement and only applies to Non O-A visas. Non O-A visas are obtained from an embassy or consulate outside of Thailand. But it seems they never mentioned that in the order which has caused chaos and conflict throughout Imm offices countrywide.

Grandfathering those OAs who entered prior to 31st Oct seems to be the obvious way and a note to that effect issued in Police orders.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Expattaff1308

[vivananahuahin]

1 minute ago, bbi1 said:

The "self-insurance" way with money in the bank sounds fine if they ever did that, but 400k is nothing. It would more likely need to be done this way, a minimum of 2 million baht in the bank and the hospital can automatically direct debit the charges from that account if the person uses their services. That way they won't lose out on people not paying them even if they have funds in the bank, plus procedures for heart attacks or strokes can end up costing huge dollars.

if 400.000 nothing why the insurance give this covering,i have one insurance from my country 2.000.000 baht,have in 2016 2 surgeries all bills pay fr%om my insurance until the last baht,and one month before and 3 months after the operation 10%,like i say before a data base from the non pay hospitals bills(name,age,nationality,type of visa) in a data base and transfer to immigration  offices,it is so simple sometimes.

[zydeco]

2 hours ago, vivananahuahin said:

why they don't make a black list from the hospitals bills(names, nationality,age, not yet pay) and make a data base and transmit to the immigration office,it is so easy when they come to the IOs they can control this,now they aim one type op persons may be with the most integrity and financial means,they have always minimum 400.000 on the bank account,it is just an idea i am not a minister.

Because this is a shakedown.

[Sheryl]

41 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

400k cover is what the Immigration is insisting on its just the cartlel of companies premiums are double other companies offering the same cover.

When this was first discussed Imm. did say that for those who cannot get cover a self insurance would be accepted but as Sheryl has pointed out somewhere between planning and implementing it has got lost in the system.

Remember those who use the 800k in the bank are not allowed to spend 400k of it, there lies the 400k self finance.

Not really. If they were to spend it their extension of stay is voided.

 

A self insurance scheme would need to involve other monies which would be immediately availablw and could be spent on health care with annual top-up.

[lopburi3]

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Not really. If they were to spend it their extension of stay is voided.

 

A self insurance scheme would need to involve other monies which would be immediately availablw and could be spent on health care with annual top-up.

Got 4 notifications of the above post within a minute - there is something going on as have had long delay in last day or two also.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by lopburi3

[Sheryl]

49 minutes ago, vivananahuahin said:

if 400.000 nothing why the insurance give this covering,i have one insurance from my country 2.000.000 baht,have in 2016 2 surgeries all bills pay fr%om my insurance until the last baht,and one month before and 3 months after the operation 10%,like i say before a data base from the non pay hospitals bills(name,age,nationality,type of visa) in a data base and transfer to immigration  offices,it is so simple sometimes.

We all agree it makes no sense and certainly won't solve the problem.

 

Many of us have policies well over 10 million baht and history of those policies paying our bills here; many international insurers have direct payment contracts with Thai hospitals. But these policies are not accepted under this system.

 

The whole thing is a complete mess and got that way in part because it involved so many different government agencies: the Health Ministry, Immigration, the Office of Insurance Commission and a group of private local onsurance companies.

 

Health Ministry iniated the request for the system but did not control the process and outcome differs from what they had in mind in several important respects.  I believe that they will ultimately find that this "system" does not solve their problem and realize they can't solve it through the local insurance sector and need a totally different approach (as will also be the case for tourists who account for a lot of the unpaid bills.). But this may take years to play out.

[Matzzon]

5 hours ago, KKr said:

If you must be insured, that is a difficult situation.

 

One thought is to pursuade one of the insurers to write a policy for the required amount, with a first risk amount that is similar, ( for a nominal fee. )

Then one would be insured !!

Are you saying that there should be an amount of 400k to pay before the insurance can payout any money? Or? Really? 

[Sheryl]

I don't know what he is trying to say but there is no "persuading" an insurer to do anything. They sell specific insurance products which they developed and submitted to the OIC for permission to sell them, a process that takes many months. If you meet their criteria (age, residence in Thailand at least 6 months of the year -- many OA holders will fail on one or both of these) and you want the product you apply for it. They review your application and agree to sell you the policy or not (hete other OA holders will fail due to pre-exiating conditions). There really isn't much room for negotiation.

 

If what is meant is to take a policy with a high deductible only one of the listed companies offers that option, Pacific Cross. And indeed a maximum deductible on a PC policy will often be the least expensive option. But what they offer is obviously not a 400k deductible on a 400k policy. Deductibles (excess) are always less than maximum cover.

 

I am in touch with people in the insurance sector here and trying to persuade them to develop 2  products which would pretty much plug the holes in the current system. One is designed for people who already hold a foreign policy, the other is basically an insurer-overseen self-insurance scheme through locked debit cards. As both would entail very little exposure for the insurer should be possoble to provide irrespective of age or pre-existing cobditions.

 

But getting local insurers to understand and consider such novel approaches it is an uphill struggle.

 

Maybe it will get easier as they discover (1) that many of their potential clients are otherwise uninsurable and (2) that their conventional approach is not what foreign retirees want.

 

Or maybe not...after all even rudimentary market research should already have told them that.

 

 

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, Mango Bob said:

So I guess those who on an Non O never had an unpaid hospital bill.  Where Have you been?

Dont worry.. were next.. 

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

My understanding is the same of yours, i.e. that only new applicants for O-A visis will be requried to have medical insurance. If in doubt, the poster should check with Thai Immigration head officefirst,  then his local office to ensure they are aware of and following official policy.

People should do the tiniest bit of cursory research.. Its crystal clear. 

[EricTh]

2 hours ago, Max69xl said:

Why is the O Visa a loophole? It's another Visa with other requirements. 

Did you not read the reason for introducing health insurance for the elderly in the first place?

 

If every retiree changes to O Visa, then what's the use of introducing the laws in the first place.

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, EricTh said:

Did you not read the reason for introducing health insurance for the elderly in the first place?

 

If every retiree changes to O Visa, then what's the use of introducing the laws in the first place.

Its already getting harder and harder to obtain non imm O for retirement (multiple entry's stopped, etc etc) its likely the next show to drop will be either applying it to all etirement extensions or removing the O as a visa offered for over 50s pushing only the OA (which in itself creates a grandfathering system). 

Of course all of this is wild speculation.. But given the text of the government orders it seems they are clearly telling us this will expand to 'all groups'.. 

 

[tgeezer]

Just because we heavily involved in speculation rumour and doomsday scenarios let’s speculate on this. Why has immigration granted retirement extensions on A-O visas if as the order says, they provide only for stays of a fixed term? Insurance is required for that term only. Could Immigration not declare that when the applicant extended, his visa was no longer extant? This forum has always maintained that an extension of a visa is not what is done yet so many who pedantically insist on this are happy to accept that it is! 
Do we have to accept that when we go to Immigration we extend our visas and that we are all on retirement visas, tourist visas, visas on arrival etc,?  Horror  of horrors so much time has been wasted by the self appointed experts here incorrectly correcting posts in the past. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by tgeezer

[EricTh]

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

Sadly, it's because of a few bad apples who didn't pay their medical fees that caused all these troubles to all other foreigners. 

 

In my opinion, if those bad apples didn't pay their medical fees, they should be banned from entering Thailand again instead of asking all foreigners to buy unnecessary health insurance.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by EricTh

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, EricTh said:

 

Sadly, it's because of a few bad apples who didn't pay their medical fees that caused all these troubles to all other foreigners. 

 

In my opinion, if those bad apples didn't pay their medical fees, they should be banned from entering Thailand. 

 

I think also what may be included in this are people who die here.. After treatment. 

 

The families are under no obligation to pay as the debt dies with them.. I am sure this is a greater source of hard losses than people skipping out on bills (which strikes me as not easy to do). 

[tgeezer]

10 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

Sadly, it's because of a few bad apples who didn't pay their medical fees that caused all these troubles to all other foreigners. 

 

In my opinion, if those bad apples didn't pay their medical fees, they should be banned from entering Thailand. 

 

 I doubt that it has anything to do with that. If government provision of hospital care does not work it is nothing to get upset about, NHSs don’t work anywhere.  The government covers theIr losses.  As we see, they need the whole population to pay into them not just a few tourists.  The answer is not to make a few who are likely to be hospitalised pay because as we see no insurance company can take it on. A National Insurance payment for all visitors administered by the government is the answer. The premiums could be hidden in charges made by Immigration and paid to hospitals. This is most likely what is failing to be done now and the argument is actually between Immigration and the Heath Ministry. The only effect on tourists should be an increase in fees.
Thailand is buying almost every currency very cheaply and if they can’t manage now what will they do when the baht falls? 

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

 I doubt that it has anything to do with that. If government provision of hospital care does not work it is nothing to get upset about, NHSs don’t work anywhere.  The government covers theIr losses.  As we see, they need the whole population to pay into them not just a few tourists.  The answer is not to make a few who are likely to be hospitalised pay because as we see no insurance company can take it on. A National Insurance payment for all visitors administered by the government is the answer. The premiums could be hidden in charges made by Immigration and paid to hospitals. This is most likely what is failing to be done now and the argument is actually between Immigration and the Heath Ministry. The only effect on tourists should be an increase in fees.
Thailand is buying almost every currency very cheaply and if they can’t manage now what will they do when the baht falls? 

Your point is well made.  The reason these long term policies are so high is that the pool is based on the ages 50-75 and they need to be based on 0-100 and disregard Outpatient costs.  Do this and the costs become more reasonable .

 

In addition- if insurance is mandaotry it has to be provided to everyone- it has to be devoid of pre existing conditions and it has to apply to the entire population

 

Another solution is to simply allow anyone on a one year extension to buy into the Thai Social Security system which provides universal coverage.  Tourists are not part of this but can be prought into the system by a surcharge on their  ticket to Thailand of say 500 Baht with a co-payment of 1000 baht to weed out the frivoulous.

 

There are so may things that can be done to give everyone universal coverage at affordable rates but so far the powers that be seem to want to do it  in a way that is neither fair just or even workable,

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Its already getting harder and harder to obtain non imm O for retirement (multiple entry's stopped, etc etc) its likely the next show to drop will be either applying it to all etirement extensions or removing the O as a visa offered for over 50s pushing only the OA (which in itself creates a grandfathering system). 

Of course all of this is wild speculation.. But given the text of the government orders it seems they are clearly telling us this will expand to 'all groups'.. 

I think you are right- eventualy the O-A or O-X will be the only way one can retire in Thailand. They  will simply stop allowing an O Visa for retirment purpoes and restrict the O to marriage or other categories.

 

I am certain they are trying to limit the number of retirees in Thailand and this is the way to do it. The numbers of retirees has been expanding considerably and the  changes in the way the 800K is held and now the insurace is a way to  cull the herd.

 

However, the Thai powers are getting push back on this as for once the Embassies have stepped up in force and are registering their  complaints on behalf of their citizens.

 

Thailand would be smart to  grandfather the  prior O-A holders and  tell the Embassies they have listened and gain respect which in a declining economy they need to  be non confrontational.  

 

Indeed, they may just ignore all the push back but if they do- they are making a huge mistake. Social Media exists and bad publicity spreads  quickly. In addition- Embassies that are ignored tend to take a harder line on future negotiations on other matters.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Thaidream

[Huckenfell]

10 hours ago, Davut said:

Oh dear,  can someone clarify this one please.

 

My understanding is that "health Insurance" is only needed for new O-A visa after 31 October 2019 to gain entry into Thailand.   And,   for those who are currently on "extensions" (and started with 0-A) health insurance is not required at this time?

This gentleman who is 80 yrs (sirwilly) has no chance of getting health insurance in Thailand from what I have read.

 

Perhaps Ubon Joe can clarify this one?

Nothing to clarify.  When his present O-A expires, he won't get another without insurance, unless of course the government become a little more gracious and allow over 70's access to the Thai system for a reasonable input.

[Huckenfell]

9 hours ago, bbi1 said:

Why would there be any "special provisions" for you? They require over 50's to have health insurance on retirement visas and for very good reason. They don't want unpaid hospital bills by any uninsured aging population who are most at risk. You either need to get it or leave Thailand when they reject your extension and go back to your home country.

There is no proof that over 50's do not pay hospital bills. This 'furfy' is utter nonsense put out by immigration to justify their move.

[Huckenfell]

8 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

And how exactly can he get it when the only policies Immigration will accept are from a few hand picked Thai companies who do not insure people his age? For all we know he may already have excellent insurance cover from a foteign company, many of us do.

 

Are you aware of the details of this new insurance requiewment? It woll not in any way address the problem of unpaid hospital bills and in fact may well worsen it by encouraging people to waste money on inadequate policies 

It is really not a well thought out policy at all and very discriminatory. Just about all the ex-pats of this age group , i find are reasonable level headed persons, who would never dream of not paying their hospital bills , even if there were a chance of getting away with it. There is NO proof of oldies doing this plus i cannot see how it is possible, because every time i have been to a Government hospital i have had to pay up front.  I recently went to a government hospital for a kidney scan, when i got the "pre Scan bill" i had to cancel due to not enough cash on me.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Huckenfell

[Huckenfell]

7 hours ago, EricTh said:

I think the easiest way is for you to apply for a new O visa and extend that based on retirement.

 

At least until the O visa loophole is closed in the future.

 

From what I read in this forum, not many people are willing to buy that expensive health insurance even if the company is willing to insure.

 

The cover is just not substancial enough and the out patients section is a joke.

[scorecard]

9 hours ago, bbi1 said:

What does a visa agent have to do with needing the required health insurance?

Perhaps the member meant see an agent for other possibilities etc., rather than meaning see an agent re health insurance policies. 

[Huckenfell]

7 hours ago, Max69xl said:

Why is the O Visa a loophole? It's another Visa with other requirements. 

I found the 90 day visa runs very inconvienent so changed to O-A. So will move to somewhere which has a nearby border crossing  such as Sisaket and get the O visa once more.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Huckenfell

[LivinLOS]

9 minutes ago, Huckenfell said:

I found the 90 day visa runs very inconvienent so changed to O-A. So will move to somewhere which has a nearby border crossing  such as Sisaket and get the O visa once more.

Once again.. There is no need to do 90 day visa runs.. It is just as easy to extend an non imm O as it is an OA (which you claim to be on extensions of). 

 

[Huckenfell]

6 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

I based my posting on the latest information I could find published on ThaiVisa Forum: 

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1127756-mandatory-health-insurance-for-non-o-a-visa-effective-from-31-october/?tab=comments#comment-14650255

 

This states the mandatory insurance regulations apply specifically to applicants for new applications for O-A visa outside of Thailand, not individuals already retired here and using an existing O-A visa to obtain annual extensions based on retirement.

 

It also stated that a further "official announcement" could be expected on October 9. I am not aware whether this actually happened or what the outcome was. Incredible, isn't it, that so much confusion should exist for so long without, apparently, a peep of protest from any of the foreign consulates charged with representing our interests.

 

If, as you say, Thai Immigration head office and local branches are in conflict over the new regs, might a possible solution be to obtain something in writing Ministry of Foreign Affairs ([email protected]), which could be printed out and used to confirm one's situation with the local immigration office?

 

I am retired here and using the O-A which cannot be obtained here in Thailand, but in my country of origin (Australia). In the past i have gone back every 2 years to renew, but my last extension expires in October 2020. Then it seems that my option will be to revert to the O visa which i abandoned several years ago in favour of the O-A.  Then i will be wasting money every 90 days which could have been spent in Thailand. How stupid is this on behalf of immigration. A case of 'cutting off ones nose to spite ones face'

[Huckenfell]

4 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

Sadly, it's because of a few bad apples who didn't pay their medical fees that caused all these troubles to all other foreigners. 

 

In my opinion, if those bad apples didn't pay their medical fees, they should be banned from entering Thailand again instead of asking all foreigners to buy unnecessary health insurance.

 

Make it law that all tourists have insurance. This is where the problems with hospitals originate.