New Visa Rules for Border Entry to Thailand

[localexp]

I have a question about the following article.

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/new-visa-rules.php

 

according to this border visa runs are limited to 2 going forward but it sounds like visa runs through the airport have now been increased to 6.

 

Quote

this change only applies to visitors who have not obtained a visa beforehand, and are entering from the border by land. Those who arrive at the airport without a prior visa will continue to receive a 30-day stamp up to 6 times per calendar year.

 

 

the reason i ask is that i just went to koala lumpur yesterday and am going through the motions to apply for a visa at the embassy, having had 2 prior border run visas and one visa flying back and forth to koala lumpur. during the prior trip through don muang i was told i had to get a tourist visa but based on this article it sounds like i could just fly straight back right now, despite what i was told 2 months ago.

 

obviously thai immigration is still trying to reshuffle its own house and get everything cleaned up, but for the rest of us, can anyone shed some light on this and does this mean that so long as you are traveling through the airport you are allowed a minimum or 6 months to stay in thailand, not taking into consideration extensions paid for at immigration?

 

thank you.

Edited November 20, 2019 by localexp

[ubonjoe]

Note this on the bottom of that webpage "This is NOT the official website of the Thai Embassy". It was set up by a law firm.

 

The 90 days in 6 months rule was rescinded 10 years ago. Since then there has been no written limit on visa exempt entries by air.

The limit of  2 visa exempt entries at land border crossing went into effect on January 1st 2017.

Some immigration officers will state it is a limit of 180 days per year on visa exempt and even tourist visa entries.

[localexp]

@ubonjoe

 

ok i have been given a flood of contradictory information.

 

when i was at don muang last i was told i had to apply for a tourist visa before returning, having done 2 border runs before. either the officer at the airport was not giving me accurate information or im currently unaware of some law.

 

can a us citizen in koala lumpur right now fly over to bangkok and get a 30 day exemption visa even if they have traveled out and back three times during the prior year, through both land and air, assuming nothing else is effecting the outcome (like being blanklisted)?

 

i have been in thailand more than a decade, have a dependent daughter in thailand and have not caused any trouble so their is no reason, outside of the legal framework, for me to be refused, i just want to figure out how to get through the airport and go back home.

 

Thank you.

 

[BritTim]

28 minutes ago, localexp said:

when i was at don muang last i was told i had to apply for a tourist visa before returning, having done 2 border runs before. either the officer at the airport was not giving me accurate information or im currently unaware of some law.

There are official regulations, and there are unofficial rules being applied at specific entry points. It appears you were told of an unofficial rule being enforced by Don Muang immigration.

 

Lots of us are frustrated about all the contradictory advice we hear. That is just the way it is. The rules depend, very much on the entry point you are using, and are subject to change without notice.

 

Don Muang is known to be relatively strict in the rules they use. Even entering with a visa, you could have problems (more likely in the future than on this occasion). If you try to enter visa exempt again at Don Muang, you are really pushing your luck.

[localexp]

@BritTim

do you think it would be ok today or the next few days? i can show them my house book, birth certificate, id cards, lots of goodies justifying my situation, its one thing to be a packer, its a whole other to have had a house here for 10+ years.

 

and if donmuang is considered strict, where would you advise? i could book a flight to phuket easily, maybe chang mai, but would be open to any route that would return me quickly to my family.

 

Thank you.

[Caldera]

Is your dependent daughter Thai? In that case, in the long run you would be much better off obtaining a visa / extension based on being the parent of a Thai than attempting to stay in Thailand long-term on tourist visa / visa exempt entries.

 

[BritTim]

29 minutes ago, localexp said:

@BritTim

do you think it would be ok today or the next few days? i can show them my house book, birth certificate, id cards, lots of goodies justifying my situation, its one thing to be a packer, its a whole other to have had a house here for 10+ years.

 

and if donmuang is considered strict, where would you advise? i could book a flight to phuket easily, maybe chang mai, but would be open to any route that would return me quickly to my family.

 

Thank you.

If you can get a Non O visa, I believe you can safely fly into Don Muang.

If you get a tourist visa, you will very likely be fine (this time, but maybe not in the future) flying into Don Muang.

Flying into Phuket is not safer than flying into Don Muang.

If you are flying from Kuala Lumpur, and determined to try for a visa exempt entry, I would suggest flying to U-Tapao (but no guarantees).

As others have suggested, without a Non O visa, your absolutely safest approach is overland entry (though Padang Besar is probably best avoided).

[localexp]

@BritTim

 

at the rate things are going the soonest i could get a tourist visa would be on monday assuming i pass on friday.

 

so i have two real options

 

if i try to fly back seeking exemptions, i would likely go to donmuang. i can easily prove my back history, house book, daughters birth certificate, notification of address, drivers license, all with the same address. im not concerned about being chewed on by the immigration officers, rather being outright denied due to legal reasoning, if no legal reason exists to block me then ill figure out the rest.

 

the other option is i wait for a couple days and get the tourist visa.

 

i can wait and if i do i will get it but it could be a very long wait.

 

i do want to get back home asap, but if their is an inherent risk that goes beyond the people im interacting (which i consider a non risk so long as they are reasonable) then ill wait for a tourist visa, but if their is a safe way to go back through plane in the next few days then ill do as directed.

 

also on the overland entry, my exemptions are used up for border crossing, is their some other method of overland entry im not aware of?

 

thank you.

 

 

 

 

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, localexp said:

if i try to fly back seeking exemptions, i would likely go to donmuang. i can easily prove my back history, house book, daughters birth certificate, notification of address, drivers license, all with the same address. im not concerned about being chewed on by the immigration officers, rather being outright denied due to legal reasoning, if no legal reason exists to block me then ill figure out the rest.

Your choice. Just be aware of what I wrote about Immigration having the official responsibility of deciding whether you qualify as a tourist when entering visa exempt. Depending on the official who screens you, it might be decided that you do not fit the profile of a typical tourist and, having several previous visa exempt entries, do not qualify for another one. That is especially true if there is an annotation somewhere that tells the official that you were previously warned to get a visa.

[offset]

2 hours ago, localexp said:

@BritTim

do you think it would be ok today or the next few days? i can show them my house book, birth certificate, id cards, lots of goodies justifying my situation, its one thing to be a packer, its a whole other to have had a house here for 10+ years.

 

and if donmuang is considered strict, where would you advise? i could book a flight to phuket easily, maybe chang mai, but would be open to any route that would return me quickly to my family.

 

Thank you.

I think you can fly into Hua Hin from KL 

[Sheryl]

Do not show things like housebook, drivers license, bank account etc. They work against you.

 

The whole issue is that you are using tourist visas and visa exempt entries to in actually live in Thailand which is not their intended use. Proofs such as you mention just confirm that this is the case.

 

They really do not want people living here on TVs and visa exemptions and are trying to crack down on it. As fathetof a Thai child the proper way to come is on an 'O' visa which you can then extend annually a year at a time. 

 

If for some reason you need to enter one more time on TV or visa exempt and you are questioned  just say you are coming to see your daughter and meekly agree if they tell you to get an O visa in future. O visa not tourist visa.

[TheAppletons]

13 minutes ago, localexp said:

 

if i try to fly back seeking exemptions, i would likely go to donmuang. i can easily prove my back history, house book, daughters birth certificate, notification of address, drivers license, all with the same address. im not concerned about being chewed on by the immigration officers, rather being outright denied due to legal reasoning, if no legal reason exists to block me then ill figure out the rest.

 

 

 

 

  I will echo what Sheryl told you - one of the most counterproductive things you could do when trying to enter on a visa exemption is to show multiple forms of proof that you are actually living here rather than just visiting.  That's a great legal reason to deny you entry.  

[localexp]

 

Ok that was what i needed to here, im staying put until i can get the tourist visa.

 

Thank you.

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Do not show things like housebook, drivers license, bank account etc. They work against you.

 

The whole issue is that you are using tourist visas and visa exempt entries to in actually live in Thailand which is not their intended use. Proofs such as you mention just confirm that this is the case.

 

They really do not want people living here on TVs and visa exemptions and are trying to crack down on it. As fathetof a Thai child the proper way to come is on an 'O' visa which you can then extend annually a year at a time. 

 

If for some reason you need to enter one more time on TV or visa exempt and you are questioned  just say you are coming to see your daughter and meekly agree if they tell you to get an O visa in future. O visa not tourist visa.

I would concur 100% with Sheryl's advice regarding not showing things like your house book, drivers licence, bank accounts etc to the Immigration Officer if you get 'pulled to one side' for further questioning.  As Sheryle said, these will only confirm (in their mind) that you are 'living' in the Kingdom on visa exempts or tourist visas and therefore give them the reason to deny you entry (albeit falsely).

 

As has been suggested you would be better off getting an 'O' visa.

 

Good luck

[localexp]

@007 RED

 

up until very recently i was on an non-o visa, then the laws changed and the people i was trusting to help me, despite extensive credentials, never backed their words.

 

i will be getting a non-o as soon as i can, just not in the next few weeks

 

but yeah its insane that the officers can act independently of the law.

 

for the sake of devils advocate, is their any more or less safe way i could return on an exemption without going in for a tourist? i really have no qualms about being chewed on by immigration, so long as they dont say no or worse yet refuse me to visit my family for an extended time.

 

what i dont get is that, in the worse situation i have read so far, you are allowed 2 border exemptions and 3 flights in a 6 month period, under either consideration i have only been in and out three times this year and know multiple people who go in and out far more often.

 

this would not even be a concern up until very recently, but in light of what is going on and the warning i got last time, i still genuinely think going a 4th time would not clobber me, but i am none the less concerned.

 

and as far as how you are suppose to "act" are they looking for someone who fits the bill of "affluent tourist with money to throw away and leave" or something, what is considered the ideal foreigner nowadays?

 

Thank you.

 

[treetops]

13 minutes ago, localexp said:

i will be getting a non-o as soon as i can, just not in the next few weeks

Can I ask why not?  You've obviously been in Thailand with the "wrong" visa status, are planning to repeat this but also want to avoid trouble at Immigration.  This would normally be done with a Non Imm O Visa so why not get one?

[moe666]

4 hours ago, localexp said:

@BritTim

do you think it would be ok today or the next few days? i can show them my house book, birth certificate, id cards, lots of goodies justifying my situation, its one thing to be a packer, its a whole other to have had a house here for 10+ years.

 

and if donmuang is considered strict, where would you advise? i could book a flight to phuket easily, maybe chang mai, but would be open to any route that would return me quickly to my family.

 

Thank you.

If you have a dependant then get a non-o

[007 RED]

10 minutes ago, localexp said:

for the sake of devils advocate, is their any more or less safe way i could return on an exemption without going in for a tourist? i really have no qualms about being chewed on by immigration, so long as they dont say no or worse yet refuse me to visit my family for an extended time.

Sorry, but I don't have sufficient knowledge/experience to offer you sound advice on this matter, so I'll have to miss on this.

 

13 minutes ago, localexp said:

what i dont get is that, in the worse situation i have read so far, you are allowed 2 border exemptions and 3 flights in a 6 month period, under either consideration i have only been in and out three times this year and know multiple people who go in and out far more often.

You're correct that you are only allowed 2 EV through land boarder crossings in a year (Jan - Dec), however, there is no such restriction on the number of VE that you can have in a year when flying into the Kingdom. 

 

That said, what the Immigration Officer will be looking at is how long you have stayed in the Kingdom during the past 12 months.  Once again, many Immigration Officers work on the un-written rule that if someone has stayed 180 days or more during the past 12 months, they are not a tourist and this often results in a denied entry. 

 

If you've stayed in the Kingdom less that 180 days during the past 12 months, I suspect your chances of being given a VE are reasonable regardless of the number of previous entries.

 

29 minutes ago, localexp said:

and as far as how you are suppose to "act" are they looking for someone who fits the bill of "affluent tourist with money to throw away and leave" or something, what is considered the ideal foreigner nowadays?

As far as I'm aware Immigration Officers are not particularly worried about how you dress or appear. 

 

Once again, good luck.

[scottiddled]

I've been a huge advocate for embracing a broader definition of "tourist" (and against the legally insignificant bickering over "living" in Thailand) so this is difficult for me. But you're really exploiting the system.

 

You're trying to be a de facto resident of Thailand. You have a home. You have a family. You seem to spend more time here than anywhere else, over a period of multiple years. You're not a tourist. You shouldn't be using visa exempt entries or tourist visas. 

 

You're not even an edge case.

 

In fact, it's cases like these that cause the edge cases to run into trouble. It causes local IO bosses to make up arbitrary rules about the number of days someone has spent in Thailand, the number of entries, and/or using one type of visa followed by another. It's cases like these that get IO's radar up, and the ones who are often caught out are not "living" in Thailand as you are. 

 

I don't write this with malice or a hope that you'll struggle to return to Thailand. In fact, I hope it works out for you. But you really need to be on another type of visa. And I think you know that.

 

 

[AsianAtHeart]

17 hours ago, scottiddled said:

I've been a huge advocate for embracing a broader definition of "tourist" (and against the legally insignificant bickering over "living" in Thailand) so this is difficult for me. But you're really exploiting the system.

 

You're trying to be a de facto resident of Thailand. You have a home. You have a family. You seem to spend more time here than anywhere else, over a period of multiple years. You're not a tourist. You shouldn't be using visa exempt entries or tourist visas. 

 

You're not even an edge case.

 

In fact, it's cases like these that cause the edge cases to run into trouble. It causes local IO bosses to make up arbitrary rules about the number of days someone has spent in Thailand, the number of entries, and/or using one type of visa followed by another. It's cases like these that get IO's radar up, and the ones who are often caught out are not "living" in Thailand as you are. 

 

I don't write this with malice or a hope that you'll struggle to return to Thailand. In fact, I hope it works out for you. But you really need to be on another type of visa. And I think you know that.

 

 

I agree.  I'm an "edge case."  It's almost certainly because of those who are flouting the system that the two border crossings per year rule was established.  That adversely affected thousands of foreigners who live in countries neighboring Thailand and who frequently cross into Thailand for their own local-country visas, for shopping, meetings, vacation, or whatever.  After Jan. 1, 2017, I was required to go to the local Thai consular office two days in every month, plus pay 1000 baht, just for one entry to Thailand, most of which involved crossing the border for some shopping and returning the same day.  I didn't dare use any of my "free entries," in case of some medical emergency or similar where I would need to be able to go quickly into Thailand and could not wait two business days for the issuance of a visa.

 

Thailand, perhaps, is losing considerable revenues in the commercial sector, as this rule has put a big hurdle in the way of access to Thai shopping for non-ASEAN citizens living next door to Thailand.  I was fortunate to have Thai dependents, and managed to fall between the cracks in the rules to get a non-O visa despite not living in Thailand.  Truly edge case--and I can have no assurance that the visa extensions will continue, but for as long as they do, it saves a ton of time in making regular appearances at the embassy, which must now be scheduled appointments.

 

Many of my friends are less fortunate, having no Thai family, and their access to Thailand is simply restricted.  Thailand has yet to create a reasonable option for foreigners living outside of Thailand yet within the ASEAN community.  As a travel hub for the region, Thailand's new restrictive rules make things more difficult for millions of people.

 

I do wish people would not try to flout the system, as this creates unfair pressure on the rest of us who have little choice in the results of it.

[DrJack54]

On 11/20/2019 at 5:31 PM, localexp said:

@007 RED

 

up until very recently i was on an non-o visa, then the laws changed and the people i was trusting to help me, despite extensive credentials, never backed their words.

 

i will be getting a non-o as soon as i can, just not in the next few weeks

 

but yeah its insane that the officers can act independently of the law.

 

for the sake of devils advocate, is their any more or less safe way i could return on an exemption without going in for a tourist? i really have no qualms about being chewed on by immigration, so long as they dont say no or worse yet refuse me to visit my family for an extended time.

 

what i dont get is that, in the worse situation i have read so far, you are allowed 2 border exemptions and 3 flights in a 6 month period, under either consideration i have only been in and out three times this year and know multiple people who go in and out far more often.

 

this would not even be a concern up until very recently, but in light of what is going on and the warning i got last time, i still genuinely think going a 4th time would not clobber me, but i am none the less concerned.

 

and as far as how you are suppose to "act" are they looking for someone who fits the bill of "affluent tourist with money to throw away and leave" or something, what is considered the ideal foreigner nowadays?

 

Thank you.

 

Flight into Chiang Mai visa exempt is probably best entry via air without having a visa.

[Maestro]

On 11/20/2019 at 11:31 AM, localexp said:

but yeah its insane that the officers can act independently of the law.

 

Just for the record, so that you won't be tempted to get into an unhelpful argument with an immigration official, a denial of entry would be within the law, specifically within section 12 of the Immigration Act.

 

Even if you carry the equivalent of 10k or 20k Baht with you an official could suspect that you intend to enter Thailand for the purpose of working illegally.

[scottiddled]

On 11/22/2019 at 4:13 PM, Maestro said:

 

Just for the record, so that you won't be tempted to get into an unhelpful argument with an immigration official, a denial of entry would be within the law, specifically within section 12 of the Immigration Act.

 

Even if you carry the equivalent of 10k or 20k Baht with you an official could suspect that you intend to enter Thailand for the purpose of working illegally.

I disagree.

 

Just because an officer cites legal grounds to deny entry does not mean the factual circumstances actually match those legal grounds. These Section 12 denials (especially the "means to support" denials) are not consistent with the law. It's a square peg in a round hole in order to address what immigration authorities believe to be a policy problem without an appopriate policy solution. 

 

While working in Thailand is illegal, there are no lawful grounds for an IO to deny entry to someone based on their unsubstantiated suspicion that they intend to work illegally in Thailand.

 

All that being said, I've been pretty harsh with the OP that he's exploiting the intent of the tourist visa program and that people like him are a major factor that so many legitimate tourists are facing problems. I won't lose too much sleep over his hypothetical denied entry, but I lose sleep over the fact that IOs are making up the law as they go along.