Bigger cause of expats leaving...

[kurtmartens]

16 hours ago, garyk said:

Actually in a private hospital in Thailand, you might as well go home and get treated. Same price.

 

 

 

It is not the same price as hospitals in the US.  Even self paying here at Bangkok Hospital, the cost is much cheaper than if I had to pay out of pocket in the US.  My lasik was much cheaper, the MRIs I have had to pay for were cheaper, my son's hospital stays all cheaper and my wife's maternity def. cheaper and frankly better care (in the US you are lucky to get more than an overnight stay).

 

 

[rwill]

Those that are already having problems meeting the financial requirements will be in trouble with the insurance requirement.  So the answer is a combination of both.

Maybe agents will be able to help with both???  Never used one myself.

[MeePeeMai]

9 minutes ago, kurtmartens said:

Even self paying here at Bangkok Hospital, the cost is much cheaper than if I had to pay out of pocket in the US. 

I'm starting to question this now.  I just got back from Bumrungrad to have a small skin lesion removed and sent to the lab for biopsy (with a few stitches).  The total cost was 18,000 baht.  I had the same done (several times) in Hawaii and it was less than that. 

 

I think the prices at certain hospitals here have gone way up lately although they did provide excellent service, the place was clean and they had some beautiful nurses (which is more than I could say for the hospitals where I come from).

[DJ54]

Non-OA extension. A person I know who has top international insurance that surpasses the requirements. To get extension had

to buy insurance 22,000 + 8,000 health check from the Thai list the better insurance not accepted. 

 

Not accepting valid insurance coverage than required should be 

addressed by the embassies and actioned.

 

[Genericnic]

35 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

I'm starting to question this now.  I just got back from Bumrungrad to have a small skin lesion removed and sent to the lab for biopsy (with a few stitches).  The total cost was 18,000 baht.  I had the same done (several times) in Hawaii and it was less than that. 

 

I think the prices at certain hospitals here have gone way up lately although they did provide excellent service, the place was clean and they had some beautiful nurses (which is more than I could say for the hospitals where I come from).

It probably depends on what you are having done.

 

Two months ago at Bangkok Hospital Chiang Mai, I had two cardiac stents inserted in what was a moderately complex, though not overly difficult procedure. The doctor - Dr. Thanawat - is a first rate interventional cardiologist that is as good as any you would get in the U.S. The support team, whether in the cath lab, ICU, or on the floor where I stayed were first rate with a standard of care that equaled what you would receive in the U.S. The cost - all in - was roughly US$18,000. On average, a similar procedure in the U.S. would have been around US$45,000. Was the cost high? By Thai standards, yes, but compared to what I would have been billed in the U.S. it was more than reasonable. 

 

Of course, with my U.S. based insurance - as opposed to the new mandated coverage - my out of pocket is less than US$3,000. The insurance requirement of B400,000 would have only covered about 70% of the bill rather than the 86% that mine covered. I happily paid the difference at no cost to Thailand or the Thai government. ????

 

David

 

p.s. Yes, there were some beautiful- and competent - nurses

[Tracyb]

I’m thinking out loud here so, bear with me.....

I wonder if the insurance requirement for O-A folks really IS a pilot program.  Not that The Cabinet will, perhaps in the future, cancel this exercise but rather, once the insurance industry figures out how to manage the influx of applications and wades through the O-A folks, the carriers will give the nod and THEN Cabinet will open the requirement for the O Visa folks.  In that way, the insurance companies won’t suffer a logjam in processing applications and cause the whole system to break down and....they’ll have the opportunity to evaluate the market and adjust premium costs.

 

What do you think?

[Genericnic]

1 minute ago, Tracyb said:

I’m thinking out loud here so, bear with me.....

I wonder if the insurance requirement for O-A folks really IS a pilot program.  Not that The Cabinet will, perhaps in the future, cancel this exercise but rather, once the insurance industry figures out how to manage the influx of applications and wades through the O-A folks, the carriers will give the nod and THEN Cabinet will open the requirement for the O Visa folks.  In that way, the insurance companies won’t suffer a logjam in processing applications and cause the whole system to break down and....they’ll have the opportunity to evaluate the market and adjust premium costs.

 

What do you think?

I know neither the thinking of the Thai government or the process involved but I would bet and seriously believe that the insurance requirement will be extended to Non-O visas sometime next year. I will be doing my forward planning based on that assumption.

 

David

[Inn Between]

The biggest reason I might have for leaving TVF is the constant opening of new threads dealing with the topics of mandatory insurance and the 800K baht bank requirement. 

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, Genericnic said:

and seriously believe that the insurance requirement will be extended to Non-O visas sometime next year.

If they're going to include all 90 day VISAs

Then the day must come when they include the 60 day VISAs

Then why not the 5 year and 10 year VISAs as well?

It's a logical progression, and at the end whitey will be gone.

Edited November 23, 2019 by BritManToo

[MeePeeMai]

1 minute ago, Genericnic said:

I know neither the thinking of the Thai government or the process involved but I would bet and seriously believe that the insurance requirement will be extended to Non-O visas sometime next year. I will be doing my forward planning based on that assumption.

 

David

Unfortunately, and I hate to admit this but I have to agree.  I too am preparing myself for the eventuality that I will soon have to make a choice between buying another health insurance policy (just to be able to stay here in Thailand) or refuse to do so and leave LOS for good.

 

 

[phantomfiddler]

How come the O.P. didn,t mention the surly attitude of the people behind the immigration desks, who make it quite clear that we are not really welcome ?

[Genericnic]

1 minute ago, phantomfiddler said:

How come the O.P. didn,t mention the surly attitude of the people behind the immigration desks, who make it quite clear that we are not really welcome ?

Maybe because not all of them are. I've been dealing with immigration for 9 years and none of them have ever been anything but professional and polite to me. Maybe that is because I clean up a bit, smile, have all my paperwork in order. Basically I do my part to make their job easier. After being a trial lawyer for a large chunk of my professional life, I know that if you make a clerk's life easier your work goes on the top of the stack. Make it harder and it goes on the bottom. 

 

David

[DUNROAMIN]

I believe this is just the tip of the ice berg, by the end of 2020, ALL expats here will be made to get Thai health insurance regardless of visa type. This decision for Thai health insurance just didn't happen overnight, or was introduced to bail out hospitals with outstanding debt by Expats. Did anybody see written proof that all expats living here racked up all these bills. Who do you think owns all the nominated Thai health insurance companies? This was well planned by the government and all the Thai elite families who really run this country. Think about it, what would you do to raise profits to keep your company afloat. Thailand has always run on corruption and will never change its their way of life here.

That's my spin on it. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by DUNROAMIN

[moontang]

1 minute ago, DUNROAMIN said:

I believe this is just the tip of the ice berg, by the end of 2020, ALL expats here will be made to get Thai health insurance regardless of visa type. This decision for Thai health insurance just didn't happen overnight, or was introduced to bail out hospitals with outstanding debt by Expats. Did anybody see written proof the all expats living here racked up all these bills. Who do you think owns all the nominated Thai health insurance companies? This was well planned by the government and all the Thai elite families who really run this country. Think about it, what would you do to raise profits to keep your company afloat. Thailand has always run on corruption and will never change its their way of life here.

That's my spin on it. 

The crackdown on the liar letters was several years in the making, and this may just be a continuation of that.

[Jingjock]

On 11/22/2019 at 4:49 PM, saengd said:

We hope not, we're getting married this week.

See a trick cyclist before you tie the knot m8   (psychiatrist)

[nickmondo]

neither of the choices are why people are leaving Thailand.

I am not going to list the reasons here, they are well discussed and well known

[rumak]

2 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

I'm starting to question this now.  I just got back from Bumrungrad to have a small skin lesion removed and sent to the lab for biopsy (with a few stitches).  The total cost was 18,000 baht.  I had the same done (several times) in Hawaii and it was less than that. 

 

I think the prices at certain hospitals here have gone way up lately although they did provide excellent service, the place was clean and they had some beautiful nurses (which is more than I could say for the hospitals where I come from).

i had the same thing done .....  at two different places.    Cost at each approx 1500 baht

this was in CM.   Not at the most expensive hospital, but both done without problems

[Onrai]

If the number of you tube videos and posts on thaivisa  about how little you can live on in Thailand is any indication-scraping together the minimum bank account balance I think is going to be more challenging for most people. I saw a YOu tube video yesterday about a couple documenting living on a $600/mo budget in Chiang mai for a months. Lots of comments that people were living on way less than that. Even with the caveat that this was a one month experiment and the couple normally live on US$1000/month puts them at half the required monthly income they need to show. 

I think the new insurance requirement works out to be 2,500-3,000 a month to meet the minimum. So, if we take this couple as an example, is it easier to come up with US$100 or US$1000/mo?

[moontang]

2 minutes ago, Onrai said:

If the number of you tube videos and posts on thaivisa  about how little you can live on in Thailand is any indication-scraping together the minimum bank account balance I think is going to be more challenging for most people. I saw a YOu tube video yesterday about a couple documenting living on a $600/mo budget in Chiang mai for a months. Lots of comments that people were living on way less than that. Even with the caveat that this was a one month experiment and the couple normally live on US$1000/month puts them at half the required monthly income they need to show. 

I think the new insurance requirement works out to be 2,500-3,000 a month to meet the minimum. So, if we take this couple as an example, is it easier to come up with US$100 or US$1000/mo?

That guy is simply another <deleted> making money off selling the dream.  I think he has a video interview of every known conman in CM..Nimman is worse than a Chinese strip mall.

[MeePeeMai]

1 hour ago, rumak said:

i had the same thing done .....  at two different places.    Cost at each approx 1500 baht

this was in CM.   Not at the most expensive hospital, but both done without problems

Yea lesson learned on that one.

 

I have insurance which covers me at Bumrungrad but my out of pocket co-pay was considerably higher than 1500 baht (not including travel and hotel for one night).  At least I'm registered there and have a Bumrungrad ID card now (which makes the registration process quick and easy should I need to go there for something more serious next time).

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by MeePeeMai

[lamyai3]

5 hours ago, Tracyb said:

I’m thinking out loud here so, bear with me.....

I wonder if the insurance requirement for O-A folks really IS a pilot program.  Not that The Cabinet will, perhaps in the future, cancel this exercise but rather, once the insurance industry figures out how to manage the influx of applications and wades through the O-A folks, the carriers will give the nod and THEN Cabinet will open the requirement for the O Visa folks.  In that way, the insurance companies won’t suffer a logjam in processing applications and cause the whole system to break down and....they’ll have the opportunity to evaluate the market and adjust premium costs.

 

What do you think?

 

 

I just commented on this in the 100 page monster thread. It seems to me there's a bunch of conflating interests originating from different branches of government and the private sector that (at least temporarily) have come together to serve the same agenda. On closer examination though, the motivations of immigration and the various ministries listed in the box above are at odds with each other in several aspects:

 

- The Immigration Bureau has made it clear they want to reduce the number of long stay foreigners and repeat tourists in the country, and subject those here to tighter controls. In the wake of the crackdowns on other visa classes, the Non O-A visa had emerged in 2019 looking far more favourable than the alternatives, and it's likely been in immigration's crosshairs for some kind of reform for a while now.

 

- The Ministry of Health presumably doesn't so much want to reduce the number of foreigners, as to have them all stay and purchase insurance, with the ultimate aim of getting mandatory insurance rolled out to all, including tourists.

 

- The private insurance sector is fully in cahoots with the Ministry of Health, and as much of the driving force behind the pilot project, is awaiting it's fruits with gleeful anticipation.

 

- The Ministry of Tourism (like the MoPH) wants them all to stay, but doesn't want the insurance for all as it'll put a dampener on tourist numbers. They've already managed to ward off one attempt to introduce insurance for tourists this year. 

 

- The Ministry of Foreign Affairs appears to be something of a lame duck, with embassies issuing visas only for them to be rejected by immigration, and being largely kept in the dark as to how the new insurance rules would be applied.

 

It seems that Immigration is higher in the pecking order than the other ministries (at least on this issue) and has been given it's mandate for reform right from the top levels of government. It's yet to be seen what the full role of the insurance project will be in their reform efforts. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by lamyai3

[scubascuba3]

9 hours ago, Tracyb said:

I’m thinking out loud here so, bear with me.....

I wonder if the insurance requirement for O-A folks really IS a pilot program.  Not that The Cabinet will, perhaps in the future, cancel this exercise but rather, once the insurance industry figures out how to manage the influx of applications and wades through the O-A folks, the carriers will give the nod and THEN Cabinet will open the requirement for the O Visa folks.  In that way, the insurance companies won’t suffer a logjam in processing applications and cause the whole system to break down and....they’ll have the opportunity to evaluate the market and adjust premium costs.

 

What do you think?

They are steering people towards the non imm O where they can maximise their baht via agents, it's that simple

[saengd]

29 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

They are steering people towards the non imm O where they can maximise their baht via agents, it's that simple

FWIW I think Tracyb's post above is spot on, that's exactly what's happening.

 

But I also think the motivation of Immi. in all of this is to get everyone into the right visa category, I don't believe there's a financial incentive to them in this although there certainly is to the insurance industry.

 

Separately....whilst I think the current program may well be extended to other visa types I'm not sure it will extend to people married to Thai's, I think they may draw the line there, just as they will draw the line with Elite visa also.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by saengd

[saengd]

9 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

How come the O.P. didn,t mention the surly attitude of the people behind the immigration desks, who make it quite clear that we are not really welcome ?

I wonder how you would feel if you worked in a job in your own country whereby you had to sit at a counter all day long and deal with a whole range of nationalities and character types, none of whom spoke your native language.

[KhunKenAP]

Top 3 reasons for expats leaving or considering leaving:

 

1) Baht strength;

2) Inconsistent Thai Immigration enforcement by office and IO's;

3) Constant barrage of changes or reapplication of Immigration rules. 

[scubascuba3]

36 minutes ago, saengd said:

FWIW I think Tracyb's post above is spot on, that's exactly what's happening.

 

But I also think the motivation of Immi. in all of this is to get everyone into the right visa category, I don't believe there's a financial incentive to them in this although there certainly is to the insurance industry.

 

Separately....whilst I think the current program may well be extended to other visa types I'm not sure it will extend to people married to Thai's, I think they may draw the line there, just as they will draw the line with Elite visa also.

 

 

I'm guessing people married to Thais think they won't include that visa, if they do eventually include O then makes sense to include those married to Thais. I don't think they will require O to have insurance but we all have different views

[saengd]

15 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

I'm guessing people married to Thais think they won't include that visa, if they do eventually include O then makes sense to include those married to Thais. I don't think they will require O to have insurance but we all have different views

Sorry, I should have said O visa for retirement purposes will probably be included but O visa for marriage will not, IMHO.

[jacko45k]

11 hours ago, Tracyb said:

What do you think?

Since a Non-Imm-O only gives a permission of stay of 90 days I do not expect it to obligate a  one -year insurance policy, perhaps a travel policy. I would expect it to be easier to simply apply it to all 12 month extensions.

[lamyai3]

58 minutes ago, KhunKenAP said:

Top 3 reasons for expats leaving or considering leaving:

 

1) Baht strength;

2) Inconsistent Thai Immigration enforcement by office and IO's;

3) Constant barrage of changes or reapplication of Immigration rules. 

Yes, an expanded list might include (in no particular order):

 

1) Baht strength

2) Weakening of home country currency (UK for example since Brexit referendum).

3) Air pollution, 7-8 months ago parts of Thailand ranked worst in the world, including expat magnets like Chiang Mai.

4) Capricious immigration changes - which in the past year have included the scrapping of income letters, TM30 enforcement, and the unfolding insurance drama.

 

The straw that breaks the camels back is maybe a combination of one or more of the above. When so much uncertainty surrounds a person's long term ability to stay, it creates a major disincentive to make any long term plans or major purchases such as investing in property or transport. 

[emptypockets]

4 hours ago, KhunKenAP said:

Top 3 reasons for expats leaving or considering leaving:

 

1) Baht strength;

2) Inconsistent Thai Immigration enforcement by office and IO's;

3) Constant barrage of changes or reapplication of Immigration rules. 

I think it simply comes down to money or lack of by people who are underfunded. Thats my view pure and simple.

The immigration requirement changes are very minor. TM30 has been blown out of proportion by some posters when the vast majority are relatively unaffected to any great degree. Keeping 400k in the bank should not be a problem for people who kept 800k there in the first place. Other people, especially those that relied on the income letter might have an issue if they were not actually getting the income they claimed to be getting.

OA insurance - lets get real - how many people are affected who cannot change to an O visa?

The speculation about the insurance requirements being expanded to all visa classes is just that - speculation.

Edited November 24, 2019 by emptypockets