Father ill in Pattaya

[Williams9]

Hi I've been on this forum a while ago about my father who's mental state had been deteriorating whilst living in Pattaya.

It has now come to the position that we need to try and get him back to the UK. Last time i was out he refused to come back, or even see a doctor. His health is bad and mentally he has no capacity.

With him not having any trusted friends in Thailand and no one who will speak english well enough or be trusting enough to help me with the process. Any suggestions on how I go about it?

 

Many thanks, I have tried to search for the thread last time but cant find it.

[Damrongsak]

Here: 

 

[wgdanson]

Why do you not fly out here and take him home?

 

 

[Williams9]

That is the plan. But last time he refused to even get in the taxi to go to the airport

[Jingthing]

This is probably in the old thread but I assume you contacted the embassy. So if so did they have any advice?

 

If he could be persuaded to board a plane, do you think he is physically healthy enough to be allowed to board?

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Jingthing

[ratcatcher]

2 minutes ago, Williams9 said:

That is the plan. But last time he refused to even get in the taxi to go to the airport

A distressing situation indeed. Who is caring for your father on a daily basis, viz a viz food, hygiene, accommodation etc? Is he living on his own or with another person? I am sure most who read this will sympathize with your situation.

[DrJack54]

13 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Why do you not fly out here and take him home?

 

 

Did you read this OP and original thread?

OP stated "last time I was out....", Meaning last time in Los trying to facilitate this.

And you get 4 likes from nuff nuffs.

OP very difficult situation. Rock and hard place. You won't get much advice in visa related forum. Have you approached UK embassy. Thinking that will also be dead end.

Best of luck

[Isaanbiker]

10 minutes ago, Williams9 said:

That is the plan. But last time he refused to even get in the taxi to go to the airport

I can feel your pain, but there's an easy solution. All government hospitals have a Psychiatrist. Most of them speak a good English.

They even have open on Saturdays.

 

Go there alone and discuss it with one of the doctors who understands your situation.

 

Then take your dad to the hospital and they'll prescribe him medication that will not just help him, but also you to be able to get him home.

 

  If you need more details, please drop me a message. 

 

 

 

  

[Toadie]

A very difficult situation for you indeed.

 

My father went that way awhile ago, but in home country, and my sister stepped in with full family support. In short she gained power of attorney. Its messy and stressful for all. Especially Dad.

 

My father is in a home now. Me? I would certainly prefer spending my final years in Thailand but then... Pattaya...? Without knowing or wanting to know full situation, quality of life for him should be major consideration. Help here will be cheaper.

 

All that aside if you really needed to move him. Solicitor there first enquiring about power of attorney (control his finances), Embassy here, nearly need to speak with proper person here and at least brief them, then work out Visa he is on. Quite possible to have him deported.

 

It will be very, very, messy. You will need a lot of support but there will be away.

 

Thais won't understand especially those around him.

 

It's going to come down to what's best for him.

[Williams9]

32 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

A distressing situation indeed. Who is caring for your father on a daily basis, viz a viz food, hygiene, accommodation etc? Is he living on his own or with another person? I am sure most who read this will sympathize with your situation.

From what I can gather is that he is looking after himself to some extent. When I was out in April, from what I was told by him he didn't have a girl, but others told me he did.

I have been in constant contact with the manager at the Condo and one of his friends, but over the last few weeks the situation has deteriorated and I am looking to come over with my mother (his ex wife) who he doesn't remember even though they were married for 30 odd years.

[AlexRich]

I’d consult Thai lawyers about getting legal guardianship of your dad. If he is on a retirement visa he’s likely to slip up with immigration at some point, and end up breaching the terms of his visa. Good luck, move quickly.

[nickstav]

I concur with the other posters here who recommend you seek legal advice on getting power of attorney over your dad. We had to do that for my mom who suffered from Alzheimer's Disease. Good Luck.

[nickstav]

1 hour ago, Isaanbiker said:

I can feel your pain, but there's an easy solution. All government hospitals have a Psychiatrist. Most of them speak a good English.

They even have open on Saturdays.

 

Go there alone and discuss it with one of the doctors who understands your situation.

 

Then take your dad to the hospital and they'll prescribe him medication that will not just help him, but also you to be able to get him home.

 

  If you need more details, please drop me a message. 

 

 

 

  

If your father has something like Alzheimer's Disease, which from what you say sounds plausible (my mom had it). The diagnosis would have to be made by a neurologist, not a psychiatrist. There are drugs that can slow the progression of Alzheimer's, and even improve the condition, but only a little bit and they are really only effective in the early stages of the disease.

[kingofthemountain]

3 hours ago, Williams9 said:

Hi I've been on this forum a while ago about my father who's mental state had been deteriorating whilst living in Pattaya.

It has now come to the position that we need to try and get him back to the UK. Last time i was out he refused to come back, or even see a doctor. His health is bad and mentally he has no capacity.

With him not having any trusted friends in Thailand and no one who will speak english well enough or be trusting enough to help me with the process. Any suggestions on how I go about it?

 

Many thanks, I have tried to search for the thread last time but cant find it.

Hi

 

i am very sorry for your very tough situation

i have an old mom who have had some problems too so i can understand your feelings

i have also read your previous topic opened some months ago

where some good and useful advices was given to you by few members.

 

If you allow me some remarks, it seems obvious your dad has choosen

to live here in Pattaya and for some personal reasons (First the gir(s) , the weather

the relative freedom and so on) he does not want at all return back to UK. I can understand him and why he prefers stay here.

 

So you need to use cunning (Not a one way back, it's just for 1 week...) and probably also some sedatives for the travel (It could be agressive and change his mind on the way back) but you have also to know he is going to hate you at a high degree for this until his last moment of life, and you'll probably have a hard time with him back in UK and for maybe a very long time since he probably would want a revenge (You have screwed my life, i am going to screw yours)  You and your family are you ready for it?

 

I mean it could be better for all to try to ''organize'' in a way or another his stay here.

it could be the least worst of the options.

 

And of course the first thing to check is his actual visa situation.

I am not sure a lawyer here in thailand could be very helpful

 

Also if you want to avoid the IDC in Bangkok for your dad if he is on overstay

the best option is not to talk with the British embassy nor the immigration in Thailand, but get the ticket plane go directly to the airport with him pay the fine for the overstay at the immigration counter and have a nice flight back together to UK.

 

You need also, now or later. sale the condo, close the bank accounts and so on, it's going to be a lot of work for you particularly with your non cooperative dad.

 

I live in Pattaya so if i can help you in a way or another you can message me by mp. 

Sorry English is not my first language so i try my best to be understandable,

 

Best luck for you and for your dad.

It a very messy situation and not really a lot of ''good''choices availables.

You need only to try to do your best for your dad, in his interest, and protect him

including against himself, but also try to respect his own choices, even if they are or seems silly or weirds.

 

In your position my biggest fear should be he decides to end his life by suicide

if he is forced to leave his Pattaya ''paradise''

 

cheers

Edited November 26, 2019 by kingofthemountain

[MarcB]

I do understand that you want your father to return home,

but on the other hand, during his moments of clarity, he considers his condo his place of home and really doesn't want to leave...

 

You could opt for a full time caretaker, so he is not alone 24/7

 

On the total opposite, you could visit a psychologist, and have him committed to a mental ward for 72 hours.

According to the local law.

 

After 72 hours, the doctor will make a case before court, whether he can live alone or is a danger to himself or others.

If the outcome is that he poses any danger, then he could be repatriated by law.

 

[Timwin]

These retiree kamikazes with one way street amok party run are one stubborn bastards but that is their choice! No offence but maybe you just have to let him go?

 

What is there for him in UK waiting? Miserable cold and rainy winter weather and some one room housing retirement unit with TV room and Yatzee with a bunch of other drooling end-of-lifers!

 

Maybe you could hire some local help at least to check him once in a while? Some part time nurse would not cost that much to visit ever 3-4 days, maybe 100-200 pounds per month. 

[BritTim]

I am in no position to judge the best (probably more like least bad) solution in this case. However, Thailand can often be a better place for old people to end their lives than a country like the UK. If you father ends up needing 24-hour care, this can be a crippling expense in the UK. In Thailand, nursing homes are affordable, and the quality of care usually good. Old people still living independently will usually have some neighbours who talk to them, and will provide limited assistance. The elderly command much greater respect (even when they are in physical and mental decline) in Thailand than in the UK. As against that, of course, there is the major problem that there is no family member close by who can reliably monitor what is going on. It is not difficult to imagine the problems that might lead to. Whatever you decide, good luck!

[jacko45k]

7 hours ago, Timwin said:

What is there for him in UK waiting? Miserable cold and rainy winter weather and some one room housing retirement unit with TV room and Yatzee with a bunch of other drooling end-of-lifers!

I tend to agree...had a relative get sick and visited in a special unit assigned to elderly/ mentally ill patients. Very disturbing. As to OP, here is your topic from June. 

 

[Sheryl]

You may indeed need to go through the legal process of getting him declared incompetent but I am not familiar with that in Thailand.

 

You should ask your Embassy and also contact @NancyL who I think has experience with things like this, albeit in Chiang Mai, but legal procedure will be the same.

 

Certainly will need to see a doctor - psychiatrist or neurologist - at some point and in addition to certifying his condition they can prescribe medications that may make him easier to deal with.

 

As to the 24 hr caretaker idea and him not wanting to leave home: with dementia that has progressed to the point that he does not remember his wife/mother of his children, he will soon no longer be able to tell where he has, and he is already way too vulnerable for a live in caretaker arrangement unless there is someone on the scene to regularly supervise which does not seem to be the case.

 

As for the "he'll hate you forever for doing this" part, he won't remember what you did. People with this degree of dementia can't form new memories.

 

If once you get him back to the UK it is possible for him to be in a place he previously lived that would be helpful.

 

Went through this with my father, in his case my mother was able to be caretaker (with some live in help in the last year) but it was necessary to sell the house and move into a retirement community first, none of which he wanted to do and of course he never "agreed" to the house sale.   She managed to do it without his ever really comprehending what had happened. 

 

There were issues with his never really accepting the new place as home;  usually thought he was in a hotel or on a cruise and  often commented that  "this hotel" or "this (cruise)  ship"  had similar furnishings and decorations to what he had at home.

 

Sometimes he would attempt to leave to "go home" though the home he would then have in mind could be anywhere he had ever lived not necessarily the one he'd been moved out of, in fact more often not but rather someplace from longer ago. In fact several times tried to leave because he thought he was late for school. He did that even before the move because their minds lose any sense of chronology and at any given moment he might be in the [present, a year ago, 20 years ago etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

7 hours ago, Timwin said:

These retiree kamikazes with one way street amok party run are one stubborn bastards but that is their choice! No offence but maybe you just have to let him go?

 

 

 

If this was all it is you would be right.

 

But it is not.

 

He has advanced dementia, so much so that he does not recognize people he has known closely for years.

 

People with advanced dementia are completely vulnerable to scams, exploitation, and all manner of injury, even to wandering off and being unable to find their way home. In time they start to have trouble swallowing and can easily get aspiration pneumonia. They need skilled care and protection.

 

A completely different situation from just a stubborn old man.

[bbi1]

12 hours ago, Williams9 said:

That is the plan. But last time he refused to even get in the taxi to go to the airport

Why don't you move to Pattaya to take care of him if he doesn't wanna leave?

[ubonjoe]

A comment about moderation and a reply to it has been removed.

[NancyL]

We've encountered situations like this in Chiang Mai, where there are more resources to help elderly expats.  An understanding and helpful Honorary British Consul, excellent American Consulate, Lanna Lawyers, Suan Prung (gov't psychiatric hospital), tourist police with native English speakers who also speak excellent Thai, and immigration that can be understanding in cases like this to avoid having an elderly man sent to IDC and instead sent out of Chiang Mai directly on a flight.

 

To my knowledge it hasn't been necessary or successful to go to a Thai court to have someone declared incompetent and a guardianship established. It would have been helpful in several cases, even after local Thai social service had been called in by Thai neighbors concerned about the neglect and abuse of an elderly expat at the hands of a Thai caregiver.  Instead the victims are simply moved to McKean, a local expat-friendly nursing home by the Thai social service agency.

 

In the case of someone who doesn't want help, it is very helpful if a family member comes to Thailand to help intervene.  The intervention can progress if the expat's condo or apartment management have found his behavior so objectionable that they want to evict him and he doesn't want to go.  Or if the expat is prone to creating scenes in public (drunkenness, urination, etc).  In such cases, the tourist police can be put on alert in advance and called in to arrest the expat and commit him to Suan Prung for evaluation and medication to make him more manageable.  It's helpful if the expat is on overstay and can be threatened with deportation if he doesn't leave Thailand voluntarily. 

 

If such an expat can be medicated into being someone who can live in a group setting AND is in compliance with his visa status, then he could be a candidate for remaining in Thailand living at any of the several assisted living centers near Chiang Mai.  From the OP's description it seems that his father does need medication and someone to look after his daily needs.  He'd be in assisted living in the U.K., so assisted living in Thailand could be an option, but all these facilities are fairly small and they want residents who will get along with the other residents  and not create discontent.  

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, bbi1 said:

Why don't you move to Pattaya to take care of him if he doesn't wanna leave?

I don't think there is a visa for that.

[bbi1]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I don't think there is a visa for that.

There are many other different types of visas. Elite Visa is one. Another is a retirement visa if old enough. Another is a METV.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, bbi1 said:

There are many other different types of visas. Elite Visa is one. Another is a retirement visa if old enough. Another is a METV.

Uh huh. Like I said, there is no visa for that. 

[bbi1]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Uh huh. Like I said, there is no visa for that. 

Why would he need a specific visa named "looking after a parent visa" or "carer's visa"?

[Enoon]

 

Why should there be one?

 

In order for a growing number of relatives to care for/retrieve what is going to be a growing number of expat dementia patients I suppose.

 

There will be enough problems for the carer, without worrying about if they'll be let back in by some random IO officer (after they've had to do a "border bounce") or what's happening to Dad while they try find a way to get back in after a refusal......don't you think?

 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Enoon

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

Why would he need a specific visa named "looking after a parent visa" or "carer's visa"?

We can imagine the OP has already a wife and chidren to take care

and also a job in the UK. not everybody can do such permanent move to another country.

 

And even if he can, i am not sure it'll be the best option

his dad is severly ill and no cooperative at all, and can act in an agressive way

so it could be a long term hell path for him

[Nip]

You have received some good and some bad advice herein. All I can offer is a friend's daughter was raped and it was recommended she attend Sri Thanya goverment psychiatric hospital in BKK for care. My friend was reluctant for all the preconceived ideas of mental hospitals but he reported that the care his daugher received was excellent and not at all what he expected that is the doctors were very knowledgable and caring and the residential accommodation on site more than acceptable. To most who attend it's appearance is not unlike a general hospital. You will find understanding and qualified advice here?