ExpatOK Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 As others have written, the House will not impeach. The House will censure. I would love to see a Senate trial. I'd like to see Adam Schiff and Hunter Biden testify, but a trial isn't going to happen. https://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/472707-john-feehery-censure-could-give-democrats-a-way-out-of-no-win-impeachment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sujo Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, ExpatOK said: As others have written, the House will not impeach. The House will censure. I would love to see a Senate trial. I'd like to see Adam Schiff and Hunter Biden testify, but a trial isn't going to happen. https://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/472707-john-feehery-censure-could-give-democrats-a-way-out-of-no-win-impeachment What did biden and schiff know about trump bribing ukraine. Did trump give them a call to discuss it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skallywag Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said: And one more time: The President will NOT be removed from Office I am 100 percent sure. You are talking to a retired US Navy Chief are you seriously saying that I need to "remember that in the USA we have 3 branches of Government"? This is a basic fact for a child. Show some respect for those you are speaking to on this argument man. And you have decided he is guilty? Of what? what you read? Therefore you believe it? T I only said he was guilty, not that he would be removed from office. Yes most US citizens should have learned about government in high school like I did, but that was 45 years ago. Believe many US citizens from younger generations really don't know or care these days. Was not trying to question your knowledge of US government. Basic facts now in evidence: (What I read) "President Donald Trump illegally withheld military aid to Ukraine. No one from the Trump administration has been able to point to any legal authority that allowed Trump to withhold the funding for the length of time and in the manner that he did. Even Trump’s defenders in the House, who have speciously claimed that the president had reasons for holding the aid other than pressuring Ukraine to investigate his political rivals, have not provided justifications that are legal." https://www.justsecurity.org/67489/trumps-hold-on-ukrainian-military-aid-was-illegal/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 49 minutes ago, Skallywag said: I only said he was guilty, not that he would be removed from office. Yes most US citizens should have learned about government in high school like I did, but that was 45 years ago. Believe many US citizens from younger generations really don't know or care these days. Was not trying to question your knowledge of US government. Basic facts now in evidence: (What I read) "President Donald Trump illegally withheld military aid to Ukraine. No one from the Trump administration has been able to point to any legal authority that allowed Trump to withhold the funding for the length of time and in the manner that he did. Even Trump’s defenders in the House, who have speciously claimed that the president had reasons for holding the aid other than pressuring Ukraine to investigate his political rivals, have not provided justifications that are legal." https://www.justsecurity.org/67489/trumps-hold-on-ukrainian-military-aid-was-illegal/ When one shows facts or substantial arguments, Trumpers usually lose any interest in the subject matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkingOrders Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Skallywag said: No one from the Trump administration has been able to point to any legal authority that allowed Trump to withhold the funding for the length of time and in the manner that he did. Article II Section 1 of the Constitution of the United States of America The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. What does that mean to you Executive Power? It means the power the execute the laws of the United States of America. That would include the President asking about corruption prior to the releasing of any foreign aid. The defense department has to certify lack of corruption before release, and they did. But does the President have the power to override such a release? "EXECUTIVE POWER SHALL BE VESTED..." Now, we get into some serious arguments. Was Trump acting out of SELF or was he acting in the Interests of the United States? Of course before they get to that argument they need to prove that he held up the aid at all for that reason. Even that may be a stretch Let's you and I not argue about what the President was thinking. Let's not pretend we know more then the Senate or the Supreme court of the United States. If this makes it to a Senate trial all the facts related to the Bidens and Burisma, and any Democrat DNC operatives in Ukraine in 2016 is all going to be part of the evidence that will be considered. None of which was looked at in the Kangaroo House. Now, yes you can take the other side and say it was all fair, never the less it will all come out in the Senate. A High crime or misdemeanor? The removal of a President that the same opposition has been trying to remove in front of the American people since he arrived. Not happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkingOrders Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, candide said: When one shows facts or substantial arguments, Trumpers usually lose any interest in the subject matter. The facts are as follows: (1) The Democrat impeachment process may not make it to the Senate. Disagree? Fine , and (2) if it does they do not have the votes in the Senate to convict and remove from office. AND (3) the Democrat field of candidates seems to be falling to pieces. If you choose to contest these 3 points feel free. Can you do that? No one cares here about either of our claims as to the President being guilty of some crime. We are not the ones who decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpatOK Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Sujo said: What did biden and schiff know about trump bribing ukraine. Did trump give them a call to discuss it? From the link I posted: "Graham has insisted that he would call Hunter Biden and Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) to testify." That's all you need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said: See how they vote should it get that far. And one more time: The President will NOT be removed from Office I am 100 percent sure. I am not even going to bother with arguing with you as it has no bearing on the way this is going to play out. You do not understand the process. According to the article here read it again. Are they supporting impeachment? Or refusing to outright denounce the impeachment effort in the house? Read carefully there is a difference: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/only-3-senate-republicans-aren-t-defending-trump-impeachment-inquiry-n1078906 and even they are political in their choices here as they are more centrist in their states. You are talking to a retired US Navy Chief are you seriously saying that I need to "remember that in the USA we have 3 branches of Government"? This is a basic fact for a child. Show some respect for those you are speaking to on this argument man. Do you know what that is like for me? You some non-American saying to me that I need to remember what I learned in when I was 6 years old? You don't even have any skin in the game here yet you want to argue that you know something about the impeachment process of the United States? And make statements like "Remember we have 3 branches of Government" Come on man. And you have decided he is guilty? Of what? what you read? Therefore you believe it? There are matters of timing related to the President and his attorney's not participating in this sham. Do some reading. Try going to fox news, or other conservative outlets. Don't believe them if you choose, but at least you will learn the other side of the issue. What Country are you from? It's like me saying to you Knowing you are from Sweden and saying "Remember your Capital city is Stockholm. A trial will be held in the Senate of the United States as you know. Not one vote will be against the President if it gets that far. Romney would be signing the end of his career in one stroke. Wherever you are from, answer this question and be honest? What was Hunter Biden's job over there at Burisma? What did he do for his $85,000 a month? Let's stop playing games here. You have been reading news for 3 years on Trump being impeached, or being a Russian agent etc. What happened to all that? The majority of Americans (and, I suspect, the majority of posters on this forum) don't know basic facts about the US government: " The poll showed only 36% of Americans could name all three branches of the government and 35% couldn't name any of them. It also found over 60% of Americans don't know which political party controls the House of Representatives and the US Senate. " https://www.businessinsider.com/poll-many-americans-dont-know-basic-facts-about-government-2014-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said: The facts are as follows: (1) The Democrat impeachment process may not make it to the Senate. Disagree? Fine , and (2) if it does they do not have the votes in the Senate to convict and remove from office. AND (3) the Democrat field of candidates seems to be falling to pieces. If you choose to contest these 3 points feel free. Can you do that? No one cares here about either of our claims as to the President being guilty of some crime. We are not the ones who decide. Well, they are not really facts, they are predictions. I agree that prediction number 2 is very likely. In particular as Trump is preventing key witnesses from testifying, it is unlikely that a shock may disturb the ex-ante defined partisan position of GOP senators. Anyway, the article linked by Skallywag presents interesting legal arguments that could be discussed or criticized, and will be completely ignored. That was my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHolmesJr Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 6 hours ago, WalkingOrders said: As for as policy, you don't have any view, of your own, as far as I can tell. So best to not try to find arguments that simply run along the lines of Trump is bad, without regard to historical or current contextual facts of the matter of individual cases of foreign or domestic policy. You can only frame things in terms of if Trump supports something it must be bad. Welcome to the MO of anti Trump brigade here. • No independent, original thoughts or viewpoints • Slavish reliance on google and putting forward the musings of any liberal media organisation • All other links are bogus and fake. • Anyone famous criticises trump, whip out the link like it's the last word • If anyone from his administration criticises him, whip out the link, underline and print it in bold • If polls support trump they are fake and dishonest • If polls go against trump they are reliable and honest • Anyone who supports Trump is a racist, rapist, factually challenged, moron etc etc This will go on even long after 2020. For your own sanity, do not waste excessive paragraphs of original thinking on them. Once in a whole, throw them a link that shows they're talking rubbish, laugh in their faces, hold your ground and stand proud and strong. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said: Article II Section 1 of the Constitution of the United States of America The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. What does that mean to you Executive Power? It means the power the execute the laws of the United States of America. That would include the President asking about corruption prior to the releasing of any foreign aid. The defense department has to certify lack of corruption before release, and they did. But does the President have the power to override such a release? "EXECUTIVE POWER SHALL BE VESTED..." Now, we get into some serious arguments. Was Trump acting out of SELF or was he acting in the Interests of the United States? Of course before they get to that argument they need to prove that he held up the aid at all for that reason. Even that may be a stretch Let's you and I not argue about what the President was thinking. Let's not pretend we know more then the Senate or the Supreme court of the United States. If this makes it to a Senate trial all the facts related to the Bidens and Burisma, and any Democrat DNC operatives in Ukraine in 2016 is all going to be part of the evidence that will be considered. None of which was looked at in the Kangaroo House. Now, yes you can take the other side and say it was all fair, never the less it will all come out in the Senate. A High crime or misdemeanor? The removal of a President that the same opposition has been trying to remove in front of the American people since he arrived. Not happening. Are you sure all the facts will be considered? Even those that must come from testimony from people claiming executive privilege? Regarding executive power and Trump withholding evidence from the House investigation, do you think executive power extends to preventing Congress from performing oversight of the executive? Regarding using executive power to withhold funds until corruption suspicions are resolved; don't you think it suspicious that the only two suspected areas of corruption of interest to Trump are ones that had nothing to do with the military aid, but would discredit the conclusions of multiple intelligence agencies and investigations and would help Trump in the 2020 election? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said: I just want to know what Hunter Biden was doing for $85,000.00 USD a month? And I want to know why the only bank that would do business with Trump after his multiple bankruptcies is a bank notorious for criminal money laundering. That has more to do with Trump's fitness for office than the past acts of a son of a Presidential candidate, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 18 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said: Welcome to the MO of anti Trump brigade here. • No independent, original thoughts or viewpoints • Slavish reliance on google and putting forward the musings of any liberal media organisation • All other links are bogus and fake. • Anyone famous criticises trump, whip out the link like it's the last word • If anyone from his administration criticises him, whip out the link, underline and print it in bold • If polls support trump they are fake and dishonest • If polls go against trump they are reliable and honest • Anyone who supports Trump is a racist, rapist, factually challenged, moron etc etc This will go on even long after 2020. For your own sanity, do not waste excessive paragraphs of original thinking on them. Once in a whole, throw them a link that shows they're talking rubbish, laugh in their faces, hold your ground and stand proud and strong. God bless. The MO of the pro-Trump brigade--make lots of accusations without specific references or sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Posts with either false or unverified information and replies removed along with off-topic posts. Just as a heads up, Hunter Biden isn't being impeached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkingOrders Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 9 hours ago, heybruce said: And I want to know why the only bank that would do business with Trump after his multiple bankruptcies is a bank notorious for criminal money laundering. IF you are making allegations of Trump for Money laundering, that would be a new charge. Call NYPD if you have some evidence. AND .... you did not answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkingOrders Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 11 hours ago, heybruce said: The majority of Americans (and, I suspect, the majority of posters on this forum) don't know basic facts about the US government: And where are you from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkingOrders Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 11 hours ago, candide said: The facts are as follows: In this instance I think you must have been aware of the sarcasm? Yes? No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkingOrders Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 10 hours ago, heybruce said: Regarding using executive power to withhold funds until corruption suspicions are resolved; don't you think it suspicious that the only two suspected areas of corruption of interest to Trump are ones that had nothing to do with the military aid, but would discredit the conclusions of multiple intelligence agencies and investigations and would help Trump in the 2020 election? Just out of curiousity. Pretend the the man Donald J Trump does not exist for a moment. Do you wonder what Hunter Biden did for $85,000.00 a month while on the board of Burisma? I disagree with your characterization of the call discrediting conclusions of multiple intelligence agencies. I don't think it suspicious, I think that the topic was a news item made pretty obvious by Biden. I consider it personally to be the largest case of its kind I have ever seen. I want to know. So again you have zero curiousity about what Hunter Biden was doing to get paid $85,000.00 a month from Burisma? And please enough trying to convict Trump that is up to the Senate IF IT EVEN GETS THAT FAR! So allow me to repeat myself again, Hunter Biden? 85K that seems normal to you? Try to analyze that question by removing Trump completely from your mind. Pretend Obama is President if it make it easier for you to ponder Hunter Biden's role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkingOrders Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 12 hours ago, candide said: When one shows facts or substantial arguments, Trumpers usually lose any interest in the subject matter. I support Donad J Trump ONLY because of his policy positions. I would be more then willing to engage in a debate with you regarding ANY of those positions. That of course would require you to develop your own point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becker Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 19 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said: I support Donad J Trump ONLY because of his policy positions. I would be more then willing to engage in a debate with you regarding ANY of those positions. That of course would require you to develop your own point of view. Calm down, no need to get personal so early in the morning. And to claim that you're the only person with own points of view on this forum only makes you appear to be a grumpy old grandma who's not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becker Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said: IF you are making allegations of Trump for Money laundering, that would be a new charge. Call NYPD if you have some evidence. AND .... you did not answer my question. He wasn't making allegations, he was requesting information. Easy there tigress, you seem a bit unhinged this morning. Everything OK with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHolmesJr Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 11 hours ago, heybruce said: And I want to know why the only bank that would do business with Trump after his multiple bankruptcies is a bank notorious for criminal money laundering. Hahahaha.....surely the same can be asked of the other 28 million or so other clients that they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHolmesJr Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 56 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said: Just out of curiousity. Pretend the the man Donald J Trump does not exist for a moment. Do you wonder what Hunter Biden did for $85,000.00 a month while on the board of Burisma? I disagree with your characterization of the call discrediting conclusions of multiple intelligence agencies. I don't think it suspicious, I think that the topic was a news item made pretty obvious by Biden. I consider it personally to be the largest case of its kind I have ever seen. I want to know. So again you have zero curiousity about what Hunter Biden was doing to get paid $85,000.00 a month from Burisma? And please enough trying to convict Trump that is up to the Senate IF IT EVEN GETS THAT FAR! So allow me to repeat myself again, Hunter Biden? 85K that seems normal to you? Try to analyze that question by removing Trump completely from your mind. Pretend Obama is President if it make it easier for you to ponder Hunter Biden's role. Agree that Hunter isn't being impeached....but the man who is being impeached has been accused due to his interest in finding out why a useless son of a VP was making so much money in the first place...and what other US government business those payments were linked to. This is highly valid material for investigation....examination of key witnesses in a senate trial could prove that: 1. This was not a witch hunt by Trump to sully a rival. 2. The aim was not to fabricate dirt but to examine a deal that seems very dirty to start with. Any thoughts by anti trumpers on this besides the 'laugh' emojis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said: Agree that Hunter isn't being impeached....but the man who is being impeached has been accused due to his interest in finding out why a useless son of a VP was making so much money in the first place...and what other US government business those payments were linked to. This is highly valid material for investigation....examination of key witnesses in a senate trial could prove that: 1. This was not a witch hunt by Trump to sully a rival. 2. The aim was not to fabricate dirt but to examine a deal that seems very dirty to start with. Any thoughts by anti trumpers on this besides the 'laugh' emojis? It's absurd! 45 has shown no interest whatsoever in corruption in foreign countries during his entire term other than these two things that interest him only for his personal political benefit. The two The totally debunked conspiracy theory about the Ukraine servers related to the 2016 election. A Putin propaganda inspired conspiracy theory. The Hunter Biden thing clearly motivated to trash who he regarded at the time to his most serious political opponent. The corruption here is really about 45s actions acting in his own personal interest rather than the interest of the nation. Impeach! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHolmesJr Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jingthing said: It's absurd! 45 has shown no interest whatsoever in corruption in foreign countries during his entire term other than these two things that interest him only for his personal political benefit. The two The totally debunked conspiracy theory about the Ukraine servers related to the 2016 election. A Putin propaganda inspired conspiracy theory. The Hunter Biden thing clearly motivated to trash who he regarded at the time to his most serious political opponent. The corruption here is really about 45s actions acting in his own personal interest rather than the interest of the nation. Impeach! When someone like yourself....(who allegedly has had me on ignore for the longest time)...comes out to rebut calm reasoning with such hysterical, vacuous and baseless assertions...I smell fear and nervousness. Im even more convinced now that impeachment will be but a dream in the eye of Adam Schiff and his cohorts. Thank you for the confirmation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDeadSenter Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jingthing said: It's absurd! 45 has shown no interest whatsoever in corruption in foreign countries during his entire term other than these two things that interest him only for his personal political benefit. The two The totally debunked conspiracy theory about the Ukraine servers related to the 2016 election. A Putin propaganda inspired conspiracy theory. The Hunter Biden thing clearly motivated to trash who he regarded at the time to his most serious political opponent. The corruption here is really about 45s actions acting in his own personal interest rather than the interest of the nation. Impeach! Wrong! Trump took an interest in, and stopped the Obama cash pallets to the Iranian mullahs being labelled a conspiracy theory by the MSM, which we all remember was the early position by the left. Even politifact had to choke on it and admit that 1.8 BILLION bucks had been airlifted to the mad mullahs. Certainly sounds like corruption and a probable "quid pro quo" to me, should be investigated urgently IMO. Funny how all the proper dirty acts all seem to be done by the dems. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/apr/27/donald-trump/donald-trump-iran-150-billion-and-18-billion-c/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sujo Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said: Wrong! Trump took an interest in, and stopped the Obama cash pallets to the Iranian mullahs being labelled a conspiracy theory by the MSM, which we all remember was the early position by the left. Even politifact had to choke on it and admit that 1.8 BILLION bucks had been airlifted to the mad mullahs. Sounds like a probable "quid pro quo" to me, should be investigated urgently IMO. Funny how all the proper dirty acts all seem to be done by the dems. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/apr/27/donald-trump/donald-trump-iran-150-billion-and-18-billion-c/ It was irans money. Not the money of US to give. Also the money was not airlifted. That was debunked. Trump supporters certainly are easily conned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sujo Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said: Agree that Hunter isn't being impeached....but the man who is being impeached has been accused due to his interest in finding out why a useless son of a VP was making so much money in the first place...and what other US government business those payments were linked to. This is highly valid material for investigation....examination of key witnesses in a senate trial could prove that: 1. This was not a witch hunt by Trump to sully a rival. 2. The aim was not to fabricate dirt but to examine a deal that seems very dirty to start with. Any thoughts by anti trumpers on this besides the 'laugh' emojis? He is not being impeached because he wanted biden investigated. He is being impeached for asking a foreign govt to investigate a political rival. He had a correct way to do it and chose the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sujo Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said: Just out of curiousity. Pretend the the man Donald J Trump does not exist for a moment. Do you wonder what Hunter Biden did for $85,000.00 a month while on the board of Burisma? I disagree with your characterization of the call discrediting conclusions of multiple intelligence agencies. I don't think it suspicious, I think that the topic was a news item made pretty obvious by Biden. I consider it personally to be the largest case of its kind I have ever seen. I want to know. So again you have zero curiousity about what Hunter Biden was doing to get paid $85,000.00 a month from Burisma? And please enough trying to convict Trump that is up to the Senate IF IT EVEN GETS THAT FAR! So allow me to repeat myself again, Hunter Biden? 85K that seems normal to you? Try to analyze that question by removing Trump completely from your mind. Pretend Obama is President if it make it easier for you to ponder Hunter Biden's role. Hunter biden was investigated already and cleared. The impeachment has nothing to do with anything biden may have done. Its what trump did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHolmesJr Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Just now, Sujo said: He is not being impeached because he wanted biden investigated. He is being impeached for asking a foreign govt to investigate a political rival. He had a correct way to do it and chose the wrong way. we shall see. I say he was justified in being wary of government Obama era agency bureaucrats around him who might compromise any investigation if exposed to it too early. That's why he sought Ukraine's pubic commitment first....he also mentioned to Zel that Mr Barr would follow up. Mr Barr is DOJ so I see no evidence that this was a shady hit job...like the one perpetrated on Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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