Failure to unite blunts anti-Brexit threat in UK election

[owl sees all]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

1. My country didn't.

2. My country didn't.

3. My country didn't.

4. Not in my country,

5. Not in my country.

 

 

Sounds as  though you would like an independent Scotland, but still be apart of the EU.

That's fine with me. But have you thought it through?

40% of Scotland is not owned by Scots (mostly by English gentlemen).
You would be saying goodbye to the English royal family (no more kilt wearing by Charles).
Scotland would have to compete as 'Scotland' in the Olympics.

Must be other stuff too, that is not so good.

 

[AlexRich]

13 hours ago, jesimps said:

"And that’s driving people towards the Brexit loving Tories."

 

Wrong. It's driving people towards the Brexit loving, 52% of the referendum vote, whom the Tories are acting on behalf of, as the UK is still a democracy (just).

Not the many that are dead? You wouldn’t get 52%.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

Not the many that are dead? You wouldn’t get 52%.

Morbid Report reborn.

[oldhippy]

10 hours ago, robertson468 said:

What indications and by who?  Or is this your little wishful thinking?

easy to find out

[JonnyF]

13 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Sounds as  though you would like an independent Scotland, but still be apart of the EU.

That's fine with me. But have you thought it through?

40% of Scotland is not owned by Scots (mostly by English gentlemen).
You would be saying goodbye to the English royal family (no more kilt wearing by Charles).
Scotland would have to compete as 'Scotland' in the Olympics.

Must be other stuff too, that is not so good.

 

Almost everything that Scotland hates about being part of the UK would multiply 10 fold if they were a independent country of only 5.5 million people that had just joined the EU.

 

I say almost everything because what this boils down to is that they would prefer to be dictated to by European bureaucrats than what they perceive to be the current situation. I have worked with quite a few Scots over the years (did a stint in Glasgow in the early noughties) and after a few pleasantries and a few beers, 9 times out of 10 it becomes pretty clear that their wish for independence is really about a deep seated dislike of the English.

 

I have no issue with them leaving the UK and joining the EU but they should be aware what they would be getting themselves into. They certainly wouldn't be independent as an economy class passenger on the unstoppable European Federalist train.

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, JonnyF said:

How many more clues do you need? 

Did Scotland vote to leave?

Did NI vote to leave?

Did Gibraltar vote to leave?

 

Last week the BBC outside unit was at a university in Southhampton. They asked 50 students about brexit and 48 said the wished to remain. Of course we know that you believe the BBC would have found out the answer before asking the question.

Here is the biggest clue, if you don't like the result of the last election then hold another, after all a second referendum wouldn't give the answer you want.

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, nauseus said:

But Labour's pit still has a much deeper bottom.

Of course, no brexiteer would like to think that brexit was a drain on resources.

[nauseus]

30 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Of course, no brexiteer would like to think that brexit was a drain on resources.

You mentioned financial policy of the Conservatives (but conveniently not Labour). This is less to do with Brexit than trying to win the GE. Labour's planned spend is double the Tory amount and would drain anything left in the pot and more (as usual).

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I have worked with quite a few Scots over the years (did a stint in Glasgow in the early noughties) and after a few pleasantries and a few beers, 9 times out of 10 it becomes pretty clear that their wish for independence is really about a deep seated dislike of the English.

 

Where is that 'Oh good god' head in hands gif when you need it?

 

Here's a novel thought experiment for you to try. Imagine, for a minute, that the world doesn't revolve round you and England in general. Expand that thought a little to picture a scenario where people in other countries support options not based upon their country's relationship with England, but simply based upon what they think will suit their own country best.

 

You see, that is the reality of Scottish independence. It is about what is best for Scotland. If, however, it makes you feel better about yourself to actually think that the world really does revolve round you, and that you are the prime consideration in all international affairs, then keep thinking as you currently do. Ignorance is bliss, apparently.

 

[JonnyF]

49 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Where is that 'Oh good god' head in hands gif when you need it?

 

Here's a novel thought experiment for you to try. Imagine, for a minute, that the world doesn't revolve round you and England in general. Expand that thought a little to picture a scenario where people in other countries support options not based upon their country's relationship with England, but simply based upon what they think will suit their own country best.

 

You see, that is the reality of Scottish independence. It is about what is best for Scotland. If, however, it makes you feel better about yourself to actually think that the world really does revolve round you, and that you are the prime consideration in all international affairs, then keep thinking as you currently do. Ignorance is bliss, apparently.

 

To pretend there is not a deep seated dislike of the English in Scotland (particularly the SNP) is disingenuous. You only have to listen to SNP members to detect an undercurrent of anti English xenophobia. Even Sturgeon acknowledges it.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-no-place-for-anti-english-sentiment-in-the-snp-1-4987799

 

 

Anecdotally, I've been in Scottish pubs where England are playing other nations (not Scotland) and the Scots cheer on England's opposition with more ferocity than they cheer on Scotland when they're playing. I've also spoken to Scottish colleagues when England play in tournaments that Scotland haven't qualified for and asked them who they're supporting and they reply "Whoever England are playing". Some are joking and some aren't.

 

If you really think that Scotland will be better off outside the UK (either as a truly independent country or as a member of the EU) then that's fine, but be careful what you wish for. You won't get terms as good as the UK has if you do choose to join the EU as an independent nation. Plus as soon as you join you've lost your independence. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

 

As already stated, I have no problem whatsoever with Scotland leaving the UK if that's what they wish to do. I think it would be a huge mistake for them, but it's their choice. Frankly I wish they'd just make their minds up and stick to it, not keep asking for referendums as soon as the weather changes.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

You mentioned financial policy of the Conservatives (but conveniently not Labour). This is less to do with Brexit than trying to win the GE. Labour's planned spend is double the Tory amount and would drain anything left in the pot and more (as usual).

In this manipulated electerendum the Labour manifesto is insignificant compared to the liability the Tories have placed on the country.

 

Apart from anything else it is going to cost 92million just to try and work out how much a replacement for Galileo will cost after spending 1.2 billion on the project.

Of course we all know the brexit expenses come from a different money tree and should be ignored.

[RuamRudy]

45 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

To pretend there is not a deep seated dislike of the English in Scotland (particularly the SNP) is disingenuous. You only have to listen to SNP members to detect an undercurrent of anti English xenophobia. Even Sturgeon acknowledges it.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-no-place-for-anti-english-sentiment-in-the-snp-1-4987799

 

 

Anecdotally, I've been in Scottish pubs where England are playing other nations (not Scotland) and the Scots cheer on England's opposition with more ferocity than they cheer on Scotland when they're playing. I've also spoken to Scottish colleagues when England play in tournaments that Scotland haven't qualified for and asked them who they're supporting and they reply "Whoever England are playing". Some are joking and some aren't.

 

If you really think that Scotland will be better off outside the UK (either as a truly independent country or as a member of the EU) then that's fine, but be careful what you wish for. You won't get terms as good as the UK has if you do choose to join the EU as an independent nation. Plus as soon as you join you've lost your independence. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

 

As already stated, I have no problem whatsoever with Scotland leaving the UK if that's what they wish to do. I think it would be a huge mistake for them, but it's their choice. Frankly I wish they'd just make their minds up and stick to it, not keep asking for referendums as soon as the weather changes.

Sorry but sporting anecdotes don't cut it. Rivalry exists across all aspects of sport, whether it be City v United or Celtic v Rangers. What you wrote was this:

 

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I have worked with quite a few Scots over the years (did a stint in Glasgow in the early noughties) and after a few pleasantries and a few beers, 9 times out of 10 it becomes pretty clear that their wish for independence is really about a deep seated dislike of the English.

So what you are saying is that my desire for Scottish independence is most likely driven by a dislike for English people. Can you understand how offensive I find that, and also how laughable I find it that you think that (the collective) you are fundamental in my forming political perspective?

[nauseus]

26 minutes ago, sandyf said:

In this manipulated electerendum the Labour manifesto is insignificant compared to the liability the Tories have placed on the country.

 

Apart from anything else it is going to cost 92million just to try and work out how much a replacement for Galileo will cost after spending 1.2 billion on the project.

Of course we all know the brexit expenses come from a different money tree and should be ignored.

This money, like other UK money involved in similar EU projects and assets, should have been considered in any "withdrawal agreement" payments. The weak remainer, Theresa May declined to fight to reclaim any of the Galileo investment plus at least 7 Billion due from the EIB. The majority of the Brexit period has, unfortunately, largely been (mis)managed by a remainers in power.

 

As far as GPS goes then I'm sure that the Americans, who are streaks ahead with the technology anyway, will oblige us. The Galileo rubidium clocks have started failing already anyway.

[RuamRudy]

38 minutes ago, nauseus said:

This money, like other UK money involved in similar EU projects and assets, should have been considered in any "withdrawal agreement" payments. The weak remainer, Theresa May declined to fight to reclaim any of the Galileo investment plus at least 7 Billion due from the EIB. The majority of the Brexit period has, unfortunately, largely been (mis)managed by a remainers in power.

 

As far as GPS goes then I'm sure that the Americans, who are streaks ahead with the technology anyway, will oblige us. The Galileo rubidium clocks have started failing already anyway.

We are on our third PM and on the cusp of the second General Election since the Brexit referendum. When will Brexiteers start to take responsibility for the humiliating slow motion car crash that we have been enduring since 2016? If you can win a referendum, why have you been so spectacularly incapable of getting the 'right' people in government to drive us all to nirvana, or is that the fault of remainers too?

[JonnyF]

49 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Sorry but sporting anecdotes don't cut it. Rivalry exists across all aspects of sport, whether it be City v United or Celtic v Rangers. What you wrote was this:

 

So what you are saying is that my desire for Scottish independence is most likely driven by a dislike for English people. Can you understand how offensive I find that, and also how laughable I find it that you think that (the collective) you are fundamental in my forming political perspective?

On your first point, I also quoted from the SNP leader who acknowledges anti English sentiment in the SNP, so why not address that instead of the sporting anecdote that followed it?

 

On your second point. "So what you are saying is" is generally followed by something that the person didn't actually say at all, as you just showed. You certainly love you strawman arguments don't you. I am not talking about YOUR desire for independence, I am stating that a lot of Scottish people want independence because they don't want what they perceive to be unwanted interference in Scotland from the English, who they don't particularly like and who have 532 of 650 seats in Parliament. 

[RuamRudy]

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

On your first point, I also quoted from the SNP leader who acknowledges anti English sentiment in the SNP, so why not address that instead of the sporting anecdote that followed it?

 

On your second point. "So what you are saying is" is generally followed by something that the person didn't actually say at all, as you just showed. You certainly love you strawman arguments don't you. I am not talking about YOUR desire for independence, I am stating that a lot of Scottish people want independence because they don't want what they perceive to be unwanted interference in Scotland from the English, who they don't particularly like and who have 532 of 650 seats in Parliament. 

You said clearly that the main drive for independence was anti Englishness. You did not state that there was a small minority of nutters, much like are attracted to every movement; you insinuated that this was a primary motive for the desire for independence. Then you sealed it with, "a lot of Scottish people want independence because they don't want what they perceive to be unwanted interference in Scotland from the English, who they don't particularly like", the latter part being complete and utter hogwash. 

 

I think the horse has bolted a long time ago, but I cannot help but wonder if our southern neighbours had actually bothered to learn a bit more about the other partners in the UK union, we might not find ourselves in this situation. Unfortunately, it is clear from much of the <deleted> routinely posted here about Scottish independence that you have learnt next to nothing since 2014.

[Tiger1980]

On 12/3/2019 at 11:00 AM, Baerboxer said:

 

So you still live with the delusion that your not British, and that your not from the UK.

 

Try reading your passport.

According to the latest news, since the SNP came to power in Scotland ,education standard have fallen. Now why would the SNP want that.

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, Tiger1980 said:

According to the latest news, since the SNP came to power in Scotland ,education standard have fallen. Now why would the SNP want that.

in order to avoid having people reading their passports . . . .

 

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

We are on our third PM and on the cusp of the second General Election since the Brexit referendum. When will Brexiteers start to take responsibility for the humiliating slow motion car crash that we have been enduring since 2016? If you can win a referendum, why have you been so spectacularly incapable of getting the 'right' people in government to drive us all to nirvana, or is that the fault of remainers too?

Spectacularly incapable! Remainers had control over the outcome of the referendum but not over choosing the best leader to get us out, let alone proposing and convincing that person to stand up and do it. Unfortunately, it seems that the "right" people rarely offer themselves to national political service. The "leaders" that we have ended up with in the last 30 years have only been found to be liars, useless or both, after it's too late. As most of these 3 years have been wasted by a remain PM and a remain parliament that were elected in 2017 after saying that they would uphold the referendum result, then yes, remainers fault!i So were are having another go now.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Spectacularly incapable! Remainers had control over the outcome of the referendum but not over choosing the best leader to get us out, let alone proposing and convincing that person to stand up and do it. Unfortunately, it seems that the "right" people rarely offer themselves to national political service. The "leaders" that we have ended up with in the last 30 years have only been found to be liars, useless or both, after it's too late. As most of these 3 years have been wasted by a remain PM and a remain parliament that were elected in 2017 after saying that they would uphold the referendum result, then yes, remainers fault!i So were are having another go now.

 

Well,

here I disagree with both you and soi R R,

the lack of Brexit is not a leader/PM problem, it is pretty much entirely a HoC problem,

UKers boast that their Parliament is sovereign (it isn't), even so what has Parliament done re Brexit?

stopped it stopped it stopped it stopped it stopped it

 

blame yourself and the MPs you elect

the missing Brexit is my view not the fault of backroom appointed May or BJ

 

 

[kingdong]

19 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Almost everything that Scotland hates about being part of the UK would multiply 10 fold if they were a independent country of only 5.5 million people that had just joined the EU.

 

I say almost everything because what this boils down to is that they would prefer to be dictated to by European bureaucrats than what they perceive to be the current situation. I have worked with quite a few Scots over the years (did a stint in Glasgow in the early noughties) and after a few pleasantries and a few beers, 9 times out of 10 it becomes pretty clear that their wish for independence is really about a deep seated dislike of the English.

 

I have no issue with them leaving the UK and joining the EU but they should be aware what they would be getting themselves into. They certainly wouldn't be independent as an economy class passenger on the unstoppable European Federalist train.

Suppose the eu would pick up the tab for Scotland's free prescriptions and education for the pleasure of having such a jewel in its crown.

[kingdong]

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

We are on our third PM and on the cusp of the second General Election since the Brexit referendum. When will Brexiteers start to take responsibility for the humiliating slow motion car crash that we have been enduring since 2016? If you can win a referendum, why have you been so spectacularly incapable of getting the 'right' people in government to drive us all to nirvana, or is that the fault of remainers too?

The reason for the delay is down to miller,benn, and remainer s unable to accept a democratic referendum and result that was pointed out in no uncertain terms would be HONOURED.

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, Tiger1980 said:

According to the latest news, since the SNP came to power in Scotland ,education standard have fallen. Now why would the SNP want that.

According to the latest news, pal people desperate to jump on a bandwagon are happy to trumpet a report which they don't understand. 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

Suppose the eu would pick up the tab for Scotland's free prescriptions and education for the pleasure of having such a jewel in its crown.

We will pay it ourselves - we already subsidise the rest of the UK so once we free ourselves of that unwanted burden, there will be ample to undo the damage caused by being in the union. 

[Tiger1980]

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

According to the latest news, pal people desperate to jump on a bandwagon are happy to trumpet a report which they don't understand. 

Or more likely you don't understand. Or should that be,you refuse to accept the observation and recommendations of international experts. Time to smell the coffee.

 

[Tiger1980]

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

We will pay it ourselves - we already subsidise the rest of the UK so once we free ourselves of that unwanted burden, there will be ample to undo the damage caused by being in the union. 

Over the last 300yrs the rest of the Union  f0inancially supported Scotland. The exception being the last 40 years,due to oil. But that will soon come to an end,as acknowledge by Stugion, who only this very week admitted that in the near future

Scotland would not be able to rely on oil revenues.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, nauseus said:

As far as GPS goes then I'm sure that the Americans, who are streaks ahead with the technology anyway, will oblige us.

Exactly what the US is hoping for.

Bojo would rather be Governor of the 51st state than PM, Reagan proved the White House is not beyond the reach of showbiz.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Exactly what the US is hoping for.

Bojo would rather be Governor of the 51st state than PM, Reagan proved the White House is not beyond the reach of showbiz.

What do you think the UK has been using since the advent of GPS? Duh!

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

What do you think the UK has been using since the advent of GPS? Duh!

There are 6 "GPS" systems worldwide, Galileo being one of them. Brexit cost the UK it's investment in Galileo and is now planning to build it's own, why would they even think about if the US system was so good.

The sting in the tail to any US deal will be commitments to the US way of doing things, Bojo does not have the will or the clout to refuse.

Bob Dylan was right but not for the better.

 

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

There are 6 "GPS" systems worldwide, Galileo being one of them. Brexit cost the UK it's investment in Galileo and is now planning to build it's own, why would they even think about if the US system was so good.

The sting in the tail to any US deal will be commitments to the US way of doing things, Bojo does not have the will or the clout to refuse.

Bob Dylan was right but not for the better.

 

 

Why not use the the US GPS system?

UK feel they must be in control of all aspects of the system, US does not offer that to foreigners.

 

All these systems have their strengths and weaknesses, they are not equal as such.

For far south and far north activities I reckon the Russian system is best.

 

UK is gonna sink a heap of years and three heaps of pounds into it if they are gonna build their own system.

 

The # years and the # pounds that Mrs May flashed around are just not realistic, bad advicers without grip

on reality.

----

Off topic this, but still fun, re Bob Dylan, an anecdote if you like.

 

On a TV talk show not too long ago Joan Baez was introduced as

the only woman in the world that had been naked with both Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen.

Her response; Yes, that is right, but not at the same time, alas.