Planning to get married need advise re visa/wife's property rights

[sometimewoodworker]

30 minutes ago, overherebc said:

And if it ends up in a court battle how long do you think that will take and how much will it cost?

Those are a rather pointless couple of questions, the law on intestacy is clear so what would the point be in contesting it? If you have drawn up wills correctly again what is the point in contesting the will.

 

The courts in Thailand are remarkably unbiased and blind to the nationality of the parties.

Thailand is not a litigious country.

 

The only winners in something like that are the lawyers. 

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, The Fat Controller said:

https://www.thailandlaw.org/intestate-succession-in-thailand.html

 

Moral of the story, make a watertight will !

 

FIL died suddenly and no will existed. I think it took nearly two and a half years for the MIL to inherit. None of the daughters wanted anything and that made things easier if you consider two and a half years easy.

After it got sorted the daughters sat down with the MIL and got a will written. Each one has an authorised copy in the safe.

[overherebc]

46 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Those are a rather pointless couple of questions, the law on intestacy is clear so what would the point be in contesting it? If you have drawn up wills correctly again what is the point in contesting the will.

 

The courts in Thailand are remarkably unbiased and blind to the nationality of the parties.

Thailand is not a litigious country.

 

The only winners in something like that are the lawyers. 

Think the basic problem exists in the situation where an expat marries someone who doesn't have any real money or assets.

He buys everything by giving her the money and if she dies the family will appear like a pack of sharks.

Or a herd of locusts to quote a line from the song. ????????

Edited December 8, 2019 by overherebc

[rumak]

On 12/7/2019 at 11:46 AM, localexpat said:

Hello 

 

Many thanks for your feedback to date, very interesting and very useful.

 

Thaivisa forum is really great, this kind of advise would cost me about 20, 000 Baht with a good Law firm.

 

Any other input appreciated

 

Regards

many a law firm might not give you great advice.   you never know

[Neeranam]

I know some hi-so almost royal Thais that are married to yanks. They told me that they refuse to get US citizenship, they live in the US, as there could be a problem when they inherit land. Maybe the law states that there is a maximum allowed.

 

[lopburi3]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I know some hi-so almost royal Thais that are married to yanks. They told me that they refuse to get US citizenship, they live in the US, as there could be a problem when they inherit land. Maybe the law states that there is a maximum allowed.

 

Marriage and citizenship are entirely different matters.  Nobody has been talking about US Citizenship.  

[Neeranam]

17 hours ago, overherebc said:

None of it really matters to us as we plan to move to uk in the next 12 months or so. Then it will most likely be 6/6 or 9/3 months-ish UK/TH after that. I was only asking about a point of Thai law on wife dying before husband.

 

What would happen if my wife dies before me, after I become a Naturalized Thai?

Would I inherit all her land, if there is no will?

I plan to buy land in a year or so, do I need my wife's  signature?

 

Maybe I will transfer some of the land to my name as I would hate her sister to be able to claim for it.

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, lopburi3 said:

Marriage and citizenship are entirely different matters.  Nobody has been talking about US Citizenship.  

Sorry, I thought they were going to the UK.

[Skallywag]

15 hours ago, overherebc said:

FIL died suddenly and no will existed. I think it took nearly two and a half years for the MIL to inherit. None of the daughters wanted anything and that made things easier if you consider two and a half years easy.

After it got sorted the daughters sat down with the MIL and got a will written. Each one has an authorised copy in the safe.

Are you saying your father in law was legally married to a Thai national here in Thailand and his wife did not inherit exactly what for 2.5 years?  House? Bank holdings? not following  

[lopburi3]

18 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Sorry, I thought they were going to the UK.

Does not matter where they go - they did not mention changing her citizenship - but indeed you have a valid point that it could be problematic with dual citizenship as that is a gray area just as in USA.  Not likely to be an issue if she did not lose Thai citizenship but might be if relatives out for the kill so probably best to avoid issue.

[overherebc]

20 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

Are you saying your father in law was legally married to a Thai national here in Thailand and his wife did not inherit exactly what for 2.5 years?  House? Bank holdings? not following  

Both Thai and legally married.

Lots of assets and cash in the bank. Took time to sort out but money was released regularly until everything was sorted out. Various bits of land to be sold etc.

You do realise if as an expat you die with cash in the bank legally your wife just can't go to the bank and withdraw it.

[digibum]

On 12/7/2019 at 4:20 PM, overherebc said:

So basically you have one year to sell it or sign it over.

Could you purchase it from yourself via a Thai company? 

[overherebc]

17 minutes ago, digibum said:

Could you purchase it from yourself via a Thai company? 

I suppose you could but I imagine a 'shelf company' wouldn't cut it. Under the circumstances it would most likely be looked at closely by the land department.

[JimGant]

On 12/6/2019 at 1:26 PM, lopburi3 said:

  There is no need to change you extension of stay from retirement to married unless you want to do so - but you can do so.

I have a feeling the OP is doing this to avoid having to buy Thai health insurance, required for renewing retirement extensions, but not marriage extensions (if original visa was an O-A). Expect we'll see lots of girl friends becoming wives -- right up until they plug that loophole.

[digibum]

16 minutes ago, overherebc said:

I suppose you could but I imagine a 'shelf company' wouldn't cut it. Under the circumstances it would most likely be looked at closely by the land department.

I imagined as such but didn’t see anything preventing that kind of transfer from happening and thus asked.  

 

My wife and I have been considering buying land in her name and then giving me a 30 year lease on the property.  If she were to die before me, I would not want to be in a position of having to dispose of the land within 1 year.  That seems rife for people to just lowball you on the land knowing there’s a clock ticking.  If I die before her, she keeps the land regardless.  

 

I haven’t checked into it too thoroughly but was hoping that by having the long-term lease, I could essentially give the property away for peanuts and as long as I can live there until I die, it wouldn’t bother me too greatly.  

 

Any other ways around the ticking clock?  

[overherebc]

15 minutes ago, digibum said:

I imagined as such but didn’t see anything preventing that kind of transfer from happening and thus asked.  

 

My wife and I have been considering buying land in her name and then giving me a 30 year lease on the property.  If she were to die before me, I would not want to be in a position of having to dispose of the land within 1 year.  That seems rife for people to just lowball you on the land knowing there’s a clock ticking.  If I die before her, she keeps the land regardless.  

 

I haven’t checked into it too thoroughly but was hoping that by having the long-term lease, I could essentially give the property away for peanuts and as long as I can live there until I die, it wouldn’t bother me too greatly.  

 

Any other ways around the ticking clock?  

Don't think there are any ways around it.

One thing that strikes me is the   why buy a house here? when you die your wife will get it.

If you buy a house in UK and your wife never works a day then when you die she will get it. Or  if you get divorced you will lose everything. 

When you sign the divorce papers at the office there is a section to complete on who wants what etc. You agree on it and sign it.

Edited December 9, 2019 by overherebc

[digibum]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

Does not matter where they go - they did not mention changing her citizenship - but indeed you have a valid point that it could be problematic with dual citizenship as that is a gray area just as in USA.  Not likely to be an issue if she did not lose Thai citizenship but might be if relatives out for the kill so probably best to avoid issue.

Dual citizenship is not a grey area in the US.  

 

There are a not insignificant number of American-born American citizens that hold citizenship in other countries.  As an American citizen, I can easily hold citizenship in any country that does not require me to renounce my US citizenship.  

 

The US State Department even has a page on their website discussing dual citizenship.  

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html

 

They clearly state on the website:

 

Quote

U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another. A U.S. citizen may naturalize in a foreign state without any risk to his or her U.S. citizenship.

 

They even discuss the fact that you must enter and exit the US on a US passport and that you may be required to enter and exit the country of your other citizenship on their passport.  

 

The US has left the topic alone, because there are all sorts of situations where the US doesn’t mind you being a dual citizen but the other country may prohibit it and if the US says it is OK and they say it isn’t then you have conflicting laws and it becomes a diplomatic issue.  

 

So, they basically say, “It’s ok” and it’s up to you to make sure you’re legally compliant in both countries.  

[digibum]

2 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Don't think there are any ways around it.

One thing that strikes me is the   why buy a house here? when you die your wife will get it.

If you buy a house in UK and your wife never works a day then when you die she will get it. Or  if you get divorced you will lose everything. 

When you sign the divorce papers at the office there is a section to complete on who wants what etc. You agree on it and sign it.

 

Well, first of all, I don’t live in the UK, nor am I a UK citizen ????

 

But the other way of looking at it is that my wife and I lived in a community-property state (both parties own everything 50-50 in a divorce).  We owned a house that was worth 4x- 5x whatever I plan on spending on place in Thailand.  If she was going to divorce me and take my money, she missed her big payday ????

 

Bottom line is that I don’t plan on spending all my cash on a house.  I just want a place that we can live in until we both croak.  I just don’t want to get kicked off my property if she goes before I do.   

[JimGant]

2 minutes ago, digibum said:

I haven’t checked into it too thoroughly but was hoping that by having the long-term lease, I could essentially give the property away for peanuts and as long as I can live there until I die, it wouldn’t bother me too greatly.  

That should work. In my situation, I'll just have my nephew take title for free, as he's the wife's contingency heir anyway. Neither he, nor any stranger taking title can remove me from the property while the lease (or usufruct) remains in effect (which it will if I take no action to modify the lease on the chanote). Interestingly, if you do nothing, supposedly the land office will eventually sell your land. But, you won't care who the stranger is as, again, he can't remove you as long as the lease runs. However, a little tidier to have someone take title who is, or might be someday, in your Will.

[lopburi3]

1 hour ago, digibum said:

So, they basically say, “It’s ok” and it’s up to you to make sure you’re legally compliant in both countries.  

Which is the gray - there is no US law authorizing dual citizenship - that policy currently accepts reality does not mean that will always be the case - less likely to be an issue in USA due to huge mixed race population (I hope).

Edited December 9, 2019 by lopburi3

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, overherebc said:

 

One thing that strikes me is the   why buy a house here? when you die your wife will get it.

Why would you not want your wife to get the house? Why get married?

I had a friend who had a prenuptial. When he got divorced, he got half the estate. However, he did in suspicious circumstances a few months after the settlement.  

We got a mortgage, which is the same as renting a similar house. This should be paid off in 2 years. 

My children or grandchildren should eventually inherit everything.

 

[digibum]

22 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Which is the gray - there is no US law authorizing dual citizenship - that policy currently accepts reality does not mean that will always be the case - less likely to be an issue in USA due to huge mixed race population (I hope).

You’re saying two entirely different things.  
 

US law is based on the concept that that which is not explicitly prohibited is permitted.  Even the US constitution uses that language.   
 

So there doesn’t need to be a law making it legal.  
 

How the law changes in the future is also not a grey area.  It’s like saying, drunk driving is a grey area because it may become legal in the future.  
 

A grey area is when there is a law or conflicting laws which make something vague.  Often the justice system chooses not to pursue charges so people operate in a grey area. 
 

A good example of grey area is medical marijuana in the US.  It’s illegal at the federal level but legal at the state level.  The USDOJ chooses not to prosecute but they could change that at the snap of someone’s fingers.   
 

You’re trying to use grey area when you should say that dual citizenship, at least from the US gov’s position, is not something they promote because it often results in grey areas with the other country.  
 

For instance, it’s not illegal for a Thai citizen to obtain US citizenship but it is not allowed or a grey area for The Thai government.  
 

The US gov is never going to come out and say, “Yes, Thai citizens are welcome to hold dual citizenship” because it would <deleted> off the Thai government.  

[jacko45k]

On 12/8/2019 at 12:33 PM, problemfarang said:

but i can get some money from the land if things go bad.

Optimistic... maybe if wife or family want to give you some. 

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Why would you not want your wife to get the house? Why get married?

I had a friend who had a prenuptial. When he got divorced, he got half the estate. However, he did in suspicious circumstances a few months after the settlement.  

We got a mortgage, which is the same as renting a similar house. This should be paid off in 2 years. 

My children or grandchildren should eventually inherit everything.

 

I agree. I was referring to the guys who spout about not buying because of their aversion to their wife getting the house when they die. You know the never buy just rent.

Spend 10,000 a month rent for 10 years and when you move out you get ( if you're lucky ) 20,000 back.

If you buy you can sell for whatever the market dictates and for sure it will be more than 20,000 baht, you can rent it out later if you fancy a move.

 

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, digibum said:

For instance, it’s not illegal for a Thai citizen to obtain US citizenship but it is not allowed or a grey area for The Thai government.  
 

 Correct, there are too many high ranking govt officials with dual citizenship to make any law. 

 

For me, the grey area is the wording. I got a letter from the UK embassy saying I intend to renounce my UK citizenship . However, the Consul assures me they don't  care and  the Thais dont either.

[overherebc]

No more posts for a few days from me.

Just had news my brother has passed on so I will not be too inclined to post for a while.

Serious post by the way lads.

Edited December 9, 2019 by overherebc