some road rules clarification

[HHTel]

12 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Its not 'wrongly' at all. Its what we do in the UK. You can't actually say its wrong as its not a legal thing - its a custom. As far as I know 110 in the hghway code is not a legal requirement - legal items in the Highway Code are marked 'must' or 'must not'.  When people drive in another country they should not assume that laws/customs are the same.  I drive in both countries and know the different meanings of flashing headlights.

 

In some countries flashing your headlights mean 'I want to pass you' hence the switchgear on some vehicles is marked 'Pass'.

Quote

Ever wondered if flashing your headlights at people is illegal?

For most, flashing your headlights at fellow motorists is an act of common courtesy.

But if you are caught by police doing this in some cases, it could land you with a hefty fine of up to £1,000.

Highway Code rule 110 states that drivers should "only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there".

It adds: "Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users."

So, flashing your lights to let someone exit or enter a junction when it isn't their right of way could land you in trouble.

The Department of Transport claim that a breach of these rules could stand up in court as evidence.

 

Think again!

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, HHTel said:

Think again!

Why? Have you ever known anyone be prosecuted for flashing their lights for anything other than the Highway Code suggests? 

 

Despite stating that the rules could stand up in court, unless they say must or must not, they are not actually rules.  To secure a prosecution, it would have to be proved that an accident or similar had been caused by someone flashing their headlights.

 

You seem like a Brit so you will know very well what people mean (in reality) when they flash their headlights and as has been stated already - it means the exact opposite of what it does in Thailand.  I would go further and suggest that in the UK,  the flashing of headlights to allow someone to pull out for example, is totally embedded in driving customs. I don't know anyone who, as suggested in the statement above, flashes their headlights to 'let someone know they are there' - except perhaps by people impatient to overtake.

 

Knowing how the flashing of headlights is used in the UK, I think that if someone used that to 'let someone know they are there' - there is a significant chance of actually causing an accident. For example: one of the most common uses of flashed headlights is to let someone come out of a side road when traffic is heavy.  Imagine someone flashing at a car waiting to pull out of a side road (which is taken to mean they are letting them pull out), then not giving way and colliding with them?

 

I've been driving for over 40 years and flashing your headlights at someone to let them out has always been the case - it has never meant 'I am here'.  I know of no other UK drivers who think differently.  Lets deal with how things are in the real world.

 

[HHTel]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Why? Have you ever known anyone be prosecuted for flashing their lights for anything other than the Highway Code suggests? 

Yes they have.  Just google it and you will see that people have been fined for going against the highway code with regard to flashing headlights.

 

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Despite stating that the rules could stand up in court, unless they say must or must not, they are not actually rules.  To secure a prosecution, it would have to be proved that an accident or similar had been caused by someone flashing their headlights.

Not true.

 

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Lets deal with how things are in the real world.

No.  Let's deal with the law shall we?

 

As a side note, I've been driving all over the world  for 55 years.  I am a member of the 'Institute of Advanced Motorists' having done and passed an advanced driving test.

 

Custom or not, it is against the law.  You condone breaking the law because the opposite is the norm??

[richard_smith237]

9 minutes ago, HHTel said:

 

As a side note, I've been driving all over the world  for 55 years.  I am a member of the 'Institute of Advanced Motorists' having done and passed an advanced driving test.

 

Custom or not, it is against the law.  You condone breaking the law because the opposite is the norm??

 

No - that's not what he wrote. He [Khao Yai] wrote 'lets live in the real world' which is sensible... 

 

There are endless comments about 'its better to be alive than 'dead' right' and in Thailand, don't drive as you would in the UK you can easily end up in an accident.

 

It's far safer to judge the road conditions and other road users intelligently, critically and as situations unfold. 

 

The same goes for driving in the UK. The Law may be against the 'Polite flasher' but UK society in general universally understand the 'Flash of lights' to be a polite, giving way gesture.

 

.... By blindly following the law and ignoring cultural variation a driver would be an additional danger to themselves and others - Hence, its makes more sense to 'Iive in the real world' 

 

 

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

No - that's not what he wrote. He [Khao Yai] wrote 'lets live in the real world' which is sensible........................

Thank you for that - eloquently put.

 

 

 

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, HHTel said:

Custom or not, it is against the law.  You condone breaking the law because the opposite is the norm??

It is not against the law to my knowledge. From what I read, the Highway Code should not be relied upon as law. Only those items marked 'must' or 'must not' are actually law.

 

As Richard has pointed out above.....

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

by blindly following the law and ignoring cultural variation a driver would be an additional danger to themselves and others - Hence, its makes more sense to 'Iive in the real world' 

Can you not see the sense in that? I hope I am never waiting on a side road and you flash at me. I, and I believe 99.9% of other drivers in the UK would think you are letting me out but in your case I would be wrong and we would almost certainly collide.

 

I have no wish to enter in to a protracted argument on this so let's hear from other UK drivers as to what their intepretation would be if they were waiting on a side road, hoping to join the main road and a driver on that main road flashed their headlights.  Would you think they were letting you out or would you think they were advising you of their existence so don't pull out?

 

In the UK, to me it means.....Come on mate.

 

In Thailand it means......I'm here and I'm not going to let you out so stay put.

 

2 countries, 2 meanings............... its not a problem. Just as you (should) learn the speed limits etc.of a different country, you should learn their customs.

[richard_smith237]

59 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I have no wish to enter in to a protracted argument on this so let's hear from other UK drivers as to what their intepretation would be if they were waiting on a side road, hoping to join the main road and a driver on that main road flashed their headlights.  Would you think they were letting you out or would you think they were advising you of their existence so don't pull out?

 

In the UK, to me it means.....Come on mate.

 

In Thailand it means......I'm here and I'm not going to let you out so stay put.

 

2 countries, 2 meanings............... its not a problem. Just as you (should) learn the speed limits etc.of a different country, you should learn their customs.

 

In the UK I would assume that the driver is politely flashing to let me out. However, if I were to pull out and that very same driver were to continue on and collide with me the accident would be my fault.

This is a situation where I'd be less reliant on the 'polite flash', however on a Motorway when wanting to change lanes we see the approaching car from behind flash and also check their speed leaving room to pull out, or when passing a line of parked cars, the car at the other end flashes to give way and let you come first - in both scenarios there is very limited risk of a collision as the other car not only flashes but also notably checks (adjusts / slows) their speed.   

 

In Thailand I would assume the driver has flipped on the <deleted> switch and is assertively telling me not to pull out in front of them. I would only pull out if there is space, which leads to another point. 

Equally so, on the motorway when wanting to change lanes, or when attempting to pass a line of parked cars I would interpret any flash according to the local culture (i.e. scruw you, I'm coming through !). In these cases the other car can also be seen to adjust their speed, but faster to intimidate the yielding vehicle. 

 

 

Additionally, such is the 'me first flash culture' here in Thailand that sometimes there is plenty of space and a driver here still 'flashes their lights' in a somewhat aggressive / assertive manner to intimidate you into not pulling out when there is a perfectly reasonable amount of space to pull out. I sometimes interpret this as, ok, he's seen me so he knows I'm here, especially in Bangkok when traffic can be extremely congested and it pays to drive with a little assertion just to get anywhere.

 

In each and every case - the only truly sensible thing to do is to evaluate each situation on its individual merit, for the most part local customs also come into this. 

 

 

 

 

 

[HHTel]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

It is not against the law to my knowledge. From what I read, the Highway Code should not be relied upon as law. Only those items marked 'must' or 'must not' are actually law.

 

As Richard has pointed out above.....

Can you not see the sense in that? I hope I am never waiting on a side road and you flash at me. I, and I believe 99.9% of other drivers in the UK would think you are letting me out but in your case I would be wrong and we would almost certainly collide.

 

I have no wish to enter in to a protracted argument on this so let's hear from other UK drivers as to what their intepretation would be if they were waiting on a side road, hoping to join the main road and a driver on that main road flashed their headlights.  Would you think they were letting you out or would you think they were advising you of their existence so don't pull out?

 

In the UK, to me it means.....Come on mate.

 

In Thailand it means......I'm here and I'm not going to let you out so stay put.

 

2 countries, 2 meanings............... its not a problem. Just as you (should) learn the speed limits etc.of a different country, you should learn their customs.

I do actually agree with you and I would act in the same way you do on a 'flashing headlight'.  I was merely pointing out the correctness or not of the action.  Also to underline that just for once, the thais use the 'headlight flash' correctly.  Some manufacturers even call flashing headlights as a 'visible horn'.

 

However:

Quote

Headlight flashing in the United Kingdom is often used as a signal that the driver flashing you is offering to let you go first. Such use is however strongly discouraged because it can lead to accidents where the driver flashing has not seen the approach of another road user.

Drivers should also be aware of the so-called "Flash-for-Cash" scam, in which criminals flash their lights to let other drivers out of a junction, then crash into them on purpose in order to make fraudulent insurance claims for damage and whiplash injury.

The legality of headlight flashing varies around the world.  In the US it varies from state to state.

Plus, as I'm sure you are now aware, people have been successfully prosecuted in the UK for the wrongful use of headlights.

 

 

[chrissables]

On 12/8/2019 at 12:27 PM, jackdd said:

What you say is wrong

Why do you think that?

[jackdd]

10 minutes ago, chrissables said:

Why do you think that?

Because there is no 90 day limit, the IDP under the 1949 convention can be used for up to a year (which is also its maximum possible validity).

You won't find (99% certain, obviously i can't rule 100% out that something doesn't exist) any official source setting such a limit, only some inofficial sources which copy from each other and are wrong.

[chrissables]

43 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Because there is no 90 day limit, the IDP under the 1949 convention can be used for up to a year (which is also its maximum possible validity).

You won't find (99% certain, obviously i can't rule 100% out that something doesn't exist) any official source setting such a limit, only some inofficial sources which copy from each other and are wrong.

I understand the permit is dated for a year. But for sure i have seen somewhere that Thailand only accepts it for 90 days, then expects you to have converted to a Thai licence. I will see if i can find the information online.

[HHTel]

57 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Because there is no 90 day limit, the IDP under the 1949 convention can be used for up to a year (which is also its maximum possible validity).

You won't find (99% certain, obviously i can't rule 100% out that something doesn't exist) any official source setting such a limit, only some inofficial sources which copy from each other and are wrong.

You will find that even under that convention, an IDP is valid for up to a year based upon each country's traffic rules and regulations.  So if Thailand says 90 days, then 90 days it is!

[KhaoYai]

12 hours ago, HHTel said:

Some manufacturers even call flashing headlights as a 'visible horn'.

And some call it pass - as evidenced by switchgear. I can't check my current motorcycle as I'm not in Thailand but my last one had a thumb switch on the left hand handlebar controls that was clearly marked 'Pass'. Its function was to flash the headlight.

 

I don't think you can say any country is right or wrong on this - its up to that country to decide - just as its up to them to set their speed limits.

[HHTel]

 

Yes, my bike also has that switch.  My car is capable of around 180 kms but to go at that speed would be braking the law wouldn't it?

[jackdd]

3 hours ago, HHTel said:

You will find that even under that convention, an IDP is valid for up to a year based upon each country's traffic rules and regulations.  So if Thailand says 90 days, then 90 days it is!

But Thailand doesn't say 90 days, so it's a year

[KhaoYai]

15 hours ago, HHTel said:

 

Yes, my bike also has that switch.  My car is capable of around 180 kms but to go at that speed would be braking the law wouldn't it?

That would depend on where you drive it - which is my overall point as it happens ????.

[Lancashirelad]

Most Thais have no clue how to negotiate roundabouts correctly. They work the same as the uk but expect Thais to enter the Roundabout (rab) from your left without giving way.

'

You mentioned you had stopped on arriving at an empty rab. Why? (Unless there was a stop sign) The whole point of rabs is to keep traffic moving: On approach; brake, look, assess, decide. Preparing to stop, looking to go.

 

Many of you use the term "right of way." Best to forget that as there is no such thing. Better to use the word 'priority' but be mindful that others don't always allow you to have it when you should.

 

OP Said: "Thats exactly why I waved the second 2 cars through, i wasnt obliged to do so".

Never wave anybody on, if they move on your signal and then collide with and kill a motorcyclist who was coming up your left side who is going to be blamed?

 

Always expect the unexpected. Always be thinking 'what if'?

 

Khao Yai said: I, and I believe 99.9% of other drivers in the UK would think you are letting me out but in your case I would be wrong and we would almost certainly collide.

 

Whilst I fully agree with your interpretation of the (mis)use of headlight signals in the UK, that collision would be 100% your fault. You have pulled out into their path without waiting to make sure he meant what you assumed he meant. He might have been flashing his next door neighbour going the other way.

 

My comments are based on the following experience:

RoSPA Gold Advanced Driver. (retested every 3 years)

Ex UK Government Approved Driving Instructor for 24 years.

Been driving trucks the same size as the one in my avatar on & off since 1991

11 Driving tests passed (7 Advanced)

Driven in 14 countries around the world

Driven in Bangkok, Pattaya and inter-city highways.

 

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, Lancashirelad said:

Most Thais have no clue how to negotiate roundabouts correctly. They work the same as the uk but expect Thais to enter the Roundabout (rab) from your left without giving way.

'

You mentioned you had stopped on arriving at an empty rab. Why? (Unless there was a stop sign) The whole point of rabs is to keep traffic moving: On approach; brake, look, assess, decide. Preparing to stop, looking to go.

 

Many of you use the term "right of way." Best to forget that as there is no such thing. Better to use the word 'priority' but be mindful that others don't always allow you to have it when you should.

 

OP Said: "Thats exactly why I waved the second 2 cars through, i wasnt obliged to do so".

Never wave anybody on, if they move on your signal and then collide with and kill a motorcyclist who was coming up your left side who is going to be blamed?

 

Always expect the unexpected. Always be thinking 'what if'?

 

Khao Yai said: I, and I believe 99.9% of other drivers in the UK would think you are letting me out but in your case I would be wrong and we would almost certainly collide.

Whilst I fully agree with your interpretation of the (mis)use of headlight signals in the UK, that collision would be 100% your fault. You have pulled out into their path without waiting to make sure he meant what you assumed he meant. He might have been flashing his next door neighbour going the other way.

 

My comments are based on the following experience:

RoSPA Gold Advanced Driver. (retested every 3 years)

Ex UK Government Approved Driving Instructor for 24 years.

Been driving trucks the size as the one in my avatar on & off since 1991

11 Driving tests passed (7 Advanced)

Driven in 14 countries around the world

Driven in Bangkok, Pattaya and inter-city highways.

 

Well if you know Pattaya you'll know Dolphin roundabout. Was a complete disaster and was quickly barriered to make it a normal junction When Terminal 21 opened they tried to reinstate it, lasted a day. Thais don't do roundabouts. Daily I have to cross Rod Fai road, the dual carriageway that runs either side of the railway line. It's badly marked and no one is shure who has right of way. How to cross it? Stick your nose into the traffic flowing from the left, wait for the slightest gap and gun it. Who dares wins! Thais treat roundabouts in the same way, nobody has a clue who has right of way so close their eyes and hope for the best.

[champers]

19 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Well if you know Pattaya you'll know Dolphin roundabout. Was a complete disaster and was quickly barriered to make it a normal junction When Terminal 21 opened they tried to reinstate it, lasted a day. Thais don't do roundabouts. Daily I have to cross Rod Fai road, the dual carriageway that runs either side of the railway line. It's badly marked and no one is shure who has right of way. How to cross it? Stick your nose into the traffic flowing from the left, wait for the slightest gap and gun it. Who dares wins! Thais treat roundabouts in the same way, nobody has a clue who has right of way so close their eyes and hope for the best.

Dolphin roundabout is mostly open. It is closed off occasionally when the police set up their motorcycle checking operations. To be fair, everyone slows down and creeps round, so hopefully there will be no repeat of the awful incident that got it closed. 

[DannyCarlton]

1 minute ago, champers said:

Dolphin roundabout is mostly open. It is closed off occasionally when the police set up their motorcycle checking operations. To be fair, everyone slows down and creeps round, so hopefully there will be no repeat of the awful incident that got it closed. 

Certain lanes are closed blocked off. Always. Can you navigate the roundabout from Naklua Road to Beach Road? You can only go up Pattaya Nua when exiting Naklua road, you cant even enter the roundabout.

[champers]

12 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Certain lanes are closed blocked off. Always. Can you navigate the roundabout from Naklua Road to Beach Road? You can only go up Pattaya Nua when exiting Naklua road, you cant even enter the roundabout.

Yes you can go straight through to Beach Rd from Naklua, since T21 opened. I live in Naklua, no lanes are always blocked off. You have to do a U turn on Nua only when the traffic police are collecting fines from motorcycles.

[Lancashirelad]

Dolphin rab is always chaotic. There has always been a barrier to stop you going South into Second Road.

 

I'm not aware of barriers to stop you turning right from Naklua Road onto Beach Road, but if so it sounds like an experiment to reduce the amount of traffic on the South side of the rab to give more chance for traffic to exit Second Road.

[chickenslegs]

56 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

Well if you know Pattaya you'll know Dolphin roundabout. Was a complete disaster and was quickly barriered to make it a normal junction When Terminal 21 opened they tried to reinstate it, lasted a day. Thais don't do roundabouts. Daily I have to cross Rod Fai road, the dual carriageway that runs either side of the railway line. It's badly marked and no one is shure who has right of way. How to cross it? Stick your nose into the traffic flowing from the left, wait for the slightest gap and gun it. Who dares wins! Thais treat roundabouts in the same way, nobody has a clue who has right of way so close their eyes and hope for the best.

Part of the problem is that the general rule here is to give way to traffic from the left (unless you are on the major road, or there are traffic signs stating otherwise), but roundabouts are a rare exception - the rule there is to give way to traffic from the right.

Even if Thais were familiar with the concept of roundabouts, the Dolphin roundabout would not work. Two of the 4 intersecting roads are one-way. None of the traffic entering the circle from Nua is turning left and there is no traffic from Beach road entering the circle, so there are not sufficient gaps in the circle to allow an orderly entry onto the circle.

As you say "Who dares wins". 

The solution is traffic lights - and some means of persuading drivers to obey them.

[HHTel]

There doesn't appear to be any driving education in Thailand which is part of the problem.  Passing a driving test, for example, without ever driving on the road is ridiculous.

In the UK, it is essential, nay - mandatory that you are educated in the Highway Code.  As the traffic laws in Thailand are based upon the UK system, it wouldn't be rocket science to translate some of the on-line instruction to Thai.

 

Here is an example:

 

http://www.learners-guide.co.uk/lessons/roundabouts/

[Lancashirelad]

That's an excellent website you've linked to.

 

OP may find this helpful, an English translation of the Thai equivalent of the Highway Code.

thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0140_5.pdf

 

Traffic signs can be found here:

 

https://driving-in-thailand.com/category/laws/

[KhaoYai]

On 12/14/2019 at 3:38 PM, Lancashirelad said:

Most Thais have no clue how to negotiate roundabouts correctly. They work the same as the uk but expect Thais to enter the Roundabout (rab) from your left without giving way.

Totally agree but the key is 'giving way'. Thai's either don't know that they should give way or don't give a damn - I'd put that at 80% don't know and 20% don't give a damn.  The 80% have very poor driving knowledge and don't seem to even apply 'common sense', Thai's are not taught much at all when they learn to drive - driving tests seem to vary but I've never seen one that includes a roundabout.

 

The 20% are the same lot that switch to the 'hard shoulder' on the motor/expressways as soon as the traffic stops - "sod waiting to find out what the hold up is, I'm going through anyway because I'm very important and have things to do".  Also the same group that.......when you pull over to the other side of the road to reverse into your driveway, won't wait for you to do so and keep on coming as you're trying to reverse. I've driven in quite a few European countries but not much in Asia (apart from Thailand) and this 20% that I talk about are the most selfish drivers I've ever seen.  It may be the same in other countries but I haven't seen it. 

 

When I'm in Thailand I no longer stop at pedestrian crossings (unless they have lights).  I used to but then I learned that if I'm on a multi lane road, the Thai drivers in the other lanes don't stop so by being courteous and stopping, I could actually cause an accident - I use the word 'cause' lightly ????.

 

I can honestly say that I have never met a Thai who either can or does, drive properly.  I have a Thai friend who although he can control the vehicle very well (even a manual!!) - sadly falls in to the 20% selfish bracket.  Maybe good Thai drivers exist but I'm yet to meet one.  Over time you learn to expect the unexpected and ignore the rest - although I do, on occasion have fits of rage when something crazy happens.  They do things that you just don't see elsewhere.  The one that sticks in my memory was about, 3 years ago when I was driving on a 3 lane highway in the outside lane. The traffic was moving quite fast (90kmh officer) when all of a sudden, a Fortuner in front of me spotted a roadside shop he wanted to visit and stopped. I kid you not - outside lane, 90+ kmh and he stopped - how I didn't rear end him I don't know. When he thought he could make it, he indicated left and cut across the other 2 lanes to park up.  It took me a while to get moving again - I just could not believe what I'd just seen. Mind you, it doesn't help when there are shopkeepers standing at the side of a fast moving 3 lane highway inviting people to come and buy their Durian or windscreen wiper blades ????.

 

 

[HHTel]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

how I didn't rear end him I don't know.

Because you were travelling at a safe distance behind, unlike the 'fender benders' here.

[Mattd]

On 12/14/2019 at 11:59 PM, chickenslegs said:

Part of the problem is that the general rule here is to give way to traffic from the left

It is impossible to give way to traffic on the left when driving on the left side of the road, it would be total carnage if this was actually the case!

Every single junction would have constant accidents, I know bikes come out of junctions on to a road without stopping, but given the misconception that officially Thailand gives way to the left, then cars should do the same at every junction, as the oncoming traffic is on their right and the they are on the left of the oncoming traffic...................

The RTA here actually means that if you are turning right at a junction, then you should give way to somebody turning left at the same junction, this would not differ in the UK.

[chickenslegs]

Just now, Mattd said:

It is impossible to give way to traffic on the left when driving on the left side of the road, it would be total carnage if this was actually the case!

Every single junction would have constant accidents, I know bikes come out of junctions on to a road without stopping, but given the misconception that officially Thailand gives way to the left, then cars should do the same at every junction, as the oncoming traffic is on their right and the they are on the left of the oncoming traffic...................

The RTA here actually means that if you are turning right at a junction, then you should give way to somebody turning left at the same junction, this would not differ in the UK.

At an unmarked junction, where it is not clear which road has priority (for example an unmarked crossroads ) the rule is to give way to the traffic from one's left.

This is what Thais are taught ...

Land Traffic Act BE 2522

Section 71 (500B)
[If, when entering a junction, there are other vehicles, the driver must let such vehicles go through first.

If two vehicles enter a junction from different directions at the same time, the vehicle on the left side has a right of way, except when there’s a designation of “principle roadway” in which case the vehicle on the principle roadway has a right of way.]

[Lancashirelad]

1 hour ago, chickenslegs said:

At an unmarked junction, where it is not clear which road has priority (for example an unmarked crossroads ) the rule is to give way to the traffic from one's left.

This is what Thais are taught ...

Land Traffic Act BE 2522

Section 71 (500B)
[If, when entering a junction, there are other vehicles, the driver must let such vehicles go through first.

If two vehicles enter a junction from different directions at the same time, the vehicle on the left side has a right of way, except when there’s a designation of “principle roadway” in which case the vehicle on the principle roadway has a right of way.]

This is what a lot of farangs, including several in this thread, misinterpret to be an overall give way to the left rule. There is no such rule. It only applies in these specific circumstances.