Canadian diagnosed with brain tumour in Thailand has travel insurance declined because he had the flu a month ago

[SkyFax]

Just now, manxcay said:

 

 

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Why do you all keep assuming the flu episode was related to the brain tumor?

 

Odds are it was exactly what it appeared to be: the flu.

 

It was the flu season.

 

People with brain tumors (or any other unknown tumor) can get the flu just as easily as anyone else. 

Because when he went to the hospital in Koh Samui he said he had a severe migraine. Was this his first ever migraine? Does he have a history of migraines? How would he know that his headache was a migraine? Did he tell the doctor in Canada that he gets migraines?

[RBOP]

Canada health care is pathetic. If he had a tumor the size this article implies it would have been there more than a month ago and the hospital in Canada should have detected it.  Sue the hospital in Canada and the insurance company. 

[Sheryl]

Just now, SkyFax said:

If -- big IF -- the doctor in Canada had run a  brain scan regardless of the symptoms as presented, would the tumor then have  been able to be detected?

Yes.

 

But there is no earthly reason for him to have done a brain or any other type of scan.

 

If doctors treating flu patients -- or any other sort of patient --  started doing random scans on them  they would indeed find unknown tumors in a very, very tiny percentage of them. Far fewer than would suffer serious  adverse effects -- even possibly die -- from the contrast media used in the scan. While huge amount of resources wasted.

 

For that matter could start scanning the general public walking by on the street. Scan enough if them abd you"ll find a few unknown tumors. Again, fewer than you will harm in the process and wasting huge resources.

 

 

[NoshowJones]

10 hours ago, Jessi said:

Insurance companys trying to get out of making a payment AGAIN.

I keep saying this but there are always some deluded people who don't agree.

[Suradit69]

Pre-existing as the term implies means existing prior to purchasing the insurance. Whether or not the person knows about it is s separate issue.  Presumably if he knew about it, he wouldn't have gone off on holiday, but the reference to a massive tumor implies that the problem existed before the holiday travel began. Most likely the insurance was sold without a very thorough medical exam and was intended to cover medical situations that arose or commenced their existence while traveling. 

 

I have no love for insurance companies and have my doubts about the coverage people are coerced into taking for O-A visas or extensions, but I presume the insurance was purchased before starting the holiday trip and outside Thailand. At least I didn't see a reference in the synopsis above.

[Rod the Sod]

10 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Never trust Lawyers,Banks or Insurance companies,I have

been screwed by all 3,they can get out of anything, using

the fine print.

regards worgeordie

Respectfully suggest that the next time you read the small print. That is why it is there, for you to understand what you get for your money. To get stung once for not reading the small print was unlucky. Twice was downright careless. Three times, well, what can I say?

[SkyFax]

42 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Why do you all keep assuming the flu episode was related to the brain tumor?

 

Odds are it was exactly what it appeared to be: the flu.

 

It was the flu season.

 

People with brain tumors (or any other unknown tumor) can get the flu just as easily as anyone else. 

Why? Because he when he went to the hospital on Koh Samui, he said that he had a migraine. Does he have a history of migraines? Was this his first migraine? 

 

It says in the linked article: "He got a migraine that didn’t go away," Has a doctor in Canada diagnosed him for migraines? For how long has he been getting migraines? Does he take medication for migraines?

[Sheryl]

29 minutes ago, RBOP said:

Canada health care is pathetic. If he had a tumor the size this article implies it would have been there more than a month ago and the hospital in Canada should have detected it.  Sue the hospital in Canada and the insurance company. 

 

Of course it was there. And not just a month ago. Many months, possibly years, ago. But it was asymptomatic as brain tumors often are initially.

 

Brain masses cause symptoms  only when they impinge on certain parts of the brain or take up enough space to increase intracranial pressure . Until then they can be totally asymptomatic.

 

There is no reason on earth for the hospital or doctor which treated him for the flu, nor nay other doctor  he may have seen in years prior for unrelated issues, to have detected this until it became symptomatic

 

. Brain scans are not automatic on all patient visits and for very good reason. ????

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, SkyFax said:

Why? Because he when he went to the hospital on Koh Samui, he said that he had a migraine. Does he have a history of migraines? Was this his first migraine? 

 

It says in the linked article: "He got a migraine that didn’t go away," Has a doctor in Canada diagnosed him for migraines? For how long has he been getting migraines? Does he take medication for migraines?

 

And what does this have to do with the treatment for the flu a month prior? He was treated in Canada  for flu, not for migraine.

 

As to whether he had a history of migraines I don't know but would guess not,  at least not in his recent past,  and certainly not taking meds for it, because if so  the insurance company would surely have seized on that whereas they seem to have been able to come up with nothing more than a bout of the flu with a mild headache to use as grounds for calling it pre-exisiting. They would not have overlooked migraines, you can be sure of that. And you can also be sure they scoured his medical records of the last few years from top to bottom.

 

He may have simply assumed it was a migraine because it was a really, really bad, disabling headache. 

 

Or perhaps he had experienced migraines  but long ago. I used to get them in my teens. Haven't had one for more than 40 years. But I still remember how they felt.

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

16 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Pre-existing as the term implies means existing prior to purchasing the insurance. Whether or not the person knows about it is s separate issue.  Presumably if he knew about it, he wouldn't have gone off on holiday, but the reference to a massive tumor implies that the problem existed before the holiday travel began. Most likely the insurance was sold without a very thorough medical exam and was intended to cover medical situations that arose or commenced their existence while traveling. 

 

I have no love for insurance companies and have my doubts about the coverage people are coerced into taking for O-A visas or extensions, but I presume the insurance was purchased before starting the holiday trip and outside Thailand. At least I didn't see a reference in the synopsis above.

 

Nobody does thorough medical exam, or even usually any medical exam, for issuance of a travel policy.

 

Pre-existing is usually defined for health insurance purposes as a condition which was known or could reasonably have been known. If it were defined as you suggest then the majority of cancers, heart attacks, strokes etc etc would never be covered and insurance would be almost pointless.

 

Travel policies are even more liberal in their definition, since they cover only emergency care.   Allianz, the insurer in question defines it as follows:

 

"

• We define a pre-existing medical condition as an injury, illness, or medical condition that, within the 120 days prior to and including your plan purchase date:

  1. Caused a person to seek medical examination, diagnosis, care, or treatment by a doctor;
  2. Presented symptoms; or
  3. Required a person to take medication prescribed by a doctor (unless the condition or symptoms are controlled by that prescription, and the prescription has not changed).

https://www.allianztravelinsurance.com/faq.htm

 

[DrTuner]

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Of course it was there. And not just a month ago. Many months, possibly years, ago. But it was asymptomatic as brain tumors often are initially.

 

Brain masses cause symptoms  only when they impinge on certain parts of the brain or take up enough space to increase intracranial pressure . Until then they can be totally asymptomatic.

So he basically had bad luck in that it became symptomatic during his trip to Thailand?

 

Obviously pre-existing then, not sure how insurance companies are supposed to deal with such. I take travel insurance but also self insure heavily because I just don't trust them. The reason I take them at all is it's easier to get into a hospital in a hurry or when incapacitated when you carry the insurance with you.

[Letseng]

10 hours ago, The Farang said:

True.  Most insurance only cover emergencies and this is clearly a preexisting condition.   Sucks but true.

Best bet is to get insurance from your own country that has International coverage.  Cigna and Aetna are good in Thailand. 

Ever tried to get money out of Aetna or Cigna?

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

So he basically had bad luck in that it became symptomatic during his trip to Thailand?

 

Obviously pre-existing then, not sure how insurance companies are supposed to deal with such. I take travel insurance but also self insure heavily because I just don't trust them. The reason I take them at all is it's easier to get into a hospital in a hurry or when incapacitated when you carry the insurance with you.

 

Yes. It just happened to become symptomatic while in Thailand. Was going to happen eventually, could have happened anytime, anywhere, just happened to be (unfortunately) while on vacation here.

 

Think of it like a bucket with water in it and more water being gradually added. The floor around it is perfectly dry.  Eventually, the bucket will overflow and the situation of the floor will change completely. But the difference in how much water had been present before and after overflow may be just a few drops. It is just that a critical threshold was reached. It is like that with brain masses.  Once that threshold is reached, given the inflexible nature of the skull, symptoms are quickly severe. But until it is reached there is  often no sign.

 

Insurance companies are supposed to deal in accordance with the terms of the insurance policy, which is a binding contract. No insurance policy that I have ever seen excludes as pre-existing conditions that were probably there but unknown  and could not reasonably have been expected to have been detected.

 

His policy's definition of pre-exisiting is listed in prior post.

[SkyFax]

Right so it seems that he did not get a medical diagnosis for migraines. On Koh Samui he says he has a migraine "that didn't go away". Maybe unlike previous migraines. So maybe what he thought was migraines was caused by something else.

[Sheryl]

Just now, Letseng said:

Ever tried to get money out of Aetna or Cigna?

 

Many TV members have had good experiences getting hospital bills paid directly by both of these companies.

 

One member had more than 3 million baht paid for on a policy he had held just a few years, and then another 3 mill or so paid out a year later.

 

It is not necessary to seek to get money out of them, they have direct payment contracts with just about every hospital in Thailand. The hospital insurance dept contacts them, gets a Guarantee of Payment (GOP), and then bills them directly, You just sign some forms.

[geoffrobbo]

wish we could find out the name of the insurance company so we can avoid it.

[tgw]

1 hour ago, manxcay said:

If I had any type of cancer i'd just have cannabis oil, here's reputable research showing that cannabinoids have anti cancer properties in brain tumours. Someone who knows him should probably pass this information on to this guy.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5964193/

what about Linux ?

[Catoni]

11 hours ago, Denim said:

Scandalous.  One of the reasons I prefer to self finance rather than trust in the small print of an insurance policy.

 

For those who prefer to have insurance make sure you have enough cash or alternative method of payment in case your insurance won't cough up.

 

Otherwise ....... Go fund me will be your next stop.

   Isn't it amazing ? ? ?    You go to all the expense of arranging for insurance...   you pay the insurance companies your money... often thousands of dollars that many older people on pension don't have.... and when you need the help... the insurance companies will sometimes refuse to come to you aid anyways... 

     Your left out in the cold...  you've lost your money to the insurance company.. and you still need to pay for your medical aid..  

     Damned crooks...

[RBOP]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

 

Of course it was there. And not just a month ago. Many months, possibly years, ago. But it was asymptomatic as brain tumors often are initially.

 

Brain masses cause symptoms  only when they impinge on certain parts of the brain or take up enough space to increase intracranial pressure . Until then they can be totally asymptomatic.

 

There is no reason on earth for the hospital or doctor which treated him for the flu, nor nay other doctor  he may have seen in years prior for unrelated issues, to have detected this until it became symptomatic

 

. Brain scans are not automatic on all patient visits and for very good reason. ????

Like I said, Canada's health care is pathetic. My mother went to hospital so many times for neck and back pain only to be given pain killers and finally pain blockers for 35 years. When she was 78 she came to Thailand for a visit. I took her for an MRI. Doc here said good news and bad news. Good news is we can cure your spinal stenosis. Bad news your too old and feeble and wouldn't survive the operation. So why didnt medical practitioners in Canada not know she had spinal stenosis all these years? Because they are too incompetent to do basic diagnosis. 

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Nobody does thorough medical exam, or even usually any medical exam, for issuance of a travel policy.

Which is why I said he would most like have had an exam, leaving open the possibility that there may be some exceptions.

 

According to Cigna, as an example:

 

Quote

 

Article | July 2018

What is a Pre-Existing Condition?

 

  Conditions like diabetes, COPD, cancer, and sleep apnea, may be examples of pre-existing health conditions. They tend to be chronic or long-term.

 

Of course in the US issues with pre-existing conditions

 

Quote

The ACA made it illegal for health insurance companies to deny you medical coverage or raise rates due to a pre-existing condition.

Although the ACA wouldn't matter to these people.

 

But the definition given by Cigna simply refers to "A medical illness or injury that you have before you start a new health care plan may be considered a “pre-existing condition.”"

 

It's something that existed before you started the insurance. No mention of the applicant knowing about it.

 

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

and insurance would be almost pointless.

As these people have found out. In their case it was pointless. And I'm sure , at least for the first year or two of coverage, the medical insurance being forced on O-A visa and extensions  holders, it will be almost pointless. And when I inquired about insurance with Pacific Cross, the medical examination they required was extraordinarily thorough and yes I realize I wasn't considering travel insurance.

 

 

 

 

[revup]

Doesn't seem like a travel insurance claim to me. Med insurance for sure, but travel? 

[torturedsole]

It's clear as to how the travel insurance provider has refused the claim.  A massive brain tumour doesn't appear overnight and therefore a pre-existing condition was evident on the basis of fact.

 

We have to put facts and the minutiae of the policy exceptions ahead of moral sensibilities however much it hurts [no pun intended].  

 

I wish the Mr Witmer and his loved ones all the best.  

[DJ54]

I hope the guy gets help and recovers and enjoys life. ... 

[Isaanbiker]

Kitchener resident Alex Witmer and his wife Jennifer Witmer, who had been living in Moncton for the last five years, quit their jobs earlier this year and went on a six-week trip to Thailand before planning to relocate to Toronto. 

 

My apologies for not having read all posts on here, but I do have my doubts reading this article.

 

Both quit their jobs "earlier this year" and went on a six week trip to Thailand before planning to relocate to Toronto????????

 

   Why would anybody leave his country without having an address and travel to Thailand when it all in a sudden turns out that the poor guy has cancer in his brain?

 

I really feel very sorry for the poor guy, my sister had a cancer group for 25 years and was awarded with the highest award you can get in good old Germany. 

 

  All I'm trying to say is that I'm aware how serious such a diagnosis is when it hits you out of the blue.

 

IMHO, it doesn't make much sense that they couldn't just fly back and get treatment back home. How can they blame the insurance company for not paying, as they might be aware that he perhaps knew of something he didn't tell others?

 

All I see is that they do not have an address back home, so it's easier to get treatment in Thailand, if the insurance would pay for it.

 

 I had an accident in Thailand where I broke my leg four times and the Thai doctors messed my leg up that I had to leave Thailand to get my leg done back home.

 

  But I had to get back into the insurance because I've lived in Thailand for so long, which was easy because I had some help from friends.

 

  No insurance in this world would want to pay for expensive brain surgery, chemotherapy and what else this poor guy might need.

 

  I somehow understand that his "headache" before could mean anything.

 

There's something what he didn't tell the insurance and why did he not fly back home to seek treatment which takes a very long time. 

 

I hope that he'll be fine soon and wish him best of luck. 

 

  

 

        

 

 

   

 

 

[zydeco]

40 minutes ago, revup said:

Doesn't seem like a travel insurance claim to me. Med insurance for sure, but travel? 

Unbelievable! Where do you think he was? On his front porch? 

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Pre-existing is usually defined for health insurance purposes as a condition which was known or could reasonably have been known.

 

Quote

 

Pre Existing Condition Law and Legal Definition

A pre-existing condition is a condition that existed prior to the current condition, and is commonly used in the context of insurance and personal injury claims. Under insurance contracts, there may be an exclusion for certain conditions that existed prior to or at the time of entering into the contract. Also, a failure to disclose a prior condition on an insurance application may preclude its coverage after acceptance as an insured.

 

 

https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/pre-existing-condition/

[SiSePuede419]

Huh?  None of this makes any sense. Why not return for treatment in Canada, ya hoser.

[realenglish1]

13 hours ago, The Farang said:

True.  Most insurance only cover emergencies and this is clearly a preexisting condition.   Sucks but true.

Best bet is to get insurance from your own country that has International coverage.  Cigna and Aetna are good in Thailand. 

He is Canadian He has free health care in Canada He needs to get home

[WhyamIhere]

Did they not have round trip tickets?  I am on a retirement visa and purchase round trip tickets when I go back to the States; however I am usually hassled by check in agents who don't understand that I live in Thailand.  They want to see a return ticket back to the States which of course I don't have.

 

[impulse]

6 hours ago, SkyFax said:

So does that mean that, if the doctor in Canada 30 days prior had said "Let's run some tests to be sure", the Canadian physician would have been unable then to detect the tumor?

 

Have you ever tried to convince a doctor to do an MRI or CAT scan because you have what looks like the flu with no other history?  Especially in an NHS country where the doctor has incentives to reduce costs?