Tourist Killed At “full Moon” Party

[terry57]

I think we need to seperate the behaviour of Israelis and the behaviour of Thai locals on islands like Koh Phangan.

There are far too many people here on these boards who after spending many years in Thailand, make the typical excuses for the behaviour of Thai locals. There seems to be an attitude that only if we had all known better that Thais are on a short fuse then these things would not happen.

I've been many times to Phangan and have had a great time, but I did find the behaviour of many,many local Thai men abhorrent, these really are the worst kind of scum, and yes, they have all been drawn by the goings on at Haad Rin.

Please let's not make the mistake of saying that it is partly our faults for antagonising these thugs. It is not acceptable. This behaviour is not unique to Thailand, but it is quite unique for a supposedly top tourist destination. Everyone that makes excuses for these rapists and murderers are also part of the problem, it is not reasonable to say this is just part of the Thai psychy and we should all play along.

And no matter how many half-naked girls I saw at the FMP, I was never tempted to rape someone... so making any attempt to excuse the behaviour of people who do is really just pathetic.... Terry!!

i thought i made that very clear in the first sentence of my post that under no circumstances is rape exceptable.

you tell me flint, exactly what you did not understand about that sentence. ?

thats a piss poor effort to say that i suggested there behaviour justify's the end result and its offensive to suggest that i think it is.

i said i was making an observation not drawing an opinion and there a huge different.

the subject is way too serious to be pissing around with innuendo, so dont even go there thank you very much.

and just to keep on topic , i am now passing an opinion and not an " OBSERVATION " that the local thai mens behaviour is very tame compared to the pissed up farang at the full moon party.

if the guy had possibly been more in control of his behaviour he might be eating falafels on koh san road instead of pushing up daisies.

thank you very much.

PS. if any person feels that they need to critisise me for something they perceived i was meaning, please PM instead of penning rubbish about my intended meaning.

[sbk]

I think we need to seperate the behaviour of Israelis and the behaviour of Thai locals on islands like Koh Phangan.

There are far too many people here on these boards who after spending many years in Thailand, make the typical excuses for the behaviour of Thai locals. There seems to be an attitude that only if we had all known better that Thais are on a short fuse then these things would not happen.

I've been many times to Phangan and have had a great time, but I did find the behaviour of many,many local Thai men abhorrent, these really are the worst kind of scum, and yes, they have all been drawn by the goings on at Haad Rin.

Please let's not make the mistake of saying that it is partly our faults for antagonising these thugs. It is not acceptable. This behaviour is not unique to Thailand, but it is quite unique for a supposedly top tourist destination. Everyone that makes excuses for these rapists and murderers are also part of the problem, it is not reasonable to say this is just part of the Thai psychy and we should all play along.

And no matter how many half-naked girls I saw at the FMP, I was never tempted to rape someone... so making any attempt to excuse the behaviour of people who do is really just pathetic.... Terry!!

Just to correct some misunderstandings here; alot if not most of the young Thai guys working Hadrin are not "locals" but usually from elsewhere: mainland Surat, Nakhon etc. Used to be my husband and I could go to Hadrin and know everybody. Now we rarely see a familiar face.

Also, be aware that it is not all Thai men raping girls on the beach, the FMP attracts its fair share of farang predators too. As I have heard first hand from girls who have been drugged and raped by western guys.

I agree, there isn't an excuse for murdering someone in this way, but I also believe that people who visit another country should at least not park their good manners at the departure gate in their home country. Far too many people come to Thailand and believe that they can do whatever they want, and certainly do things they would never do at home, and not have a problem.

[terry57]

Please let's not make the mistake of saying that it is partly our faults for antagonising these thugs. It is not acceptable. This behaviour is not unique to Thailand, but it is quite unique for a supposedly top tourist destination. Everyone that makes excuses for these rapists and murderers are also part of the problem, it is not reasonable to say this is just part of the Thai psychy and we should all play along.

i agree wholeheartedly.

what do you agree with tax. ?

that to spit in someones face is acceptable. ?

every action creates an equal action and in this case an over the top reaction, but this is normal for thailand and does not surprise.

so whats changed.?

nothing

[coach pete]

Please let's not make the mistake of saying that it is partly our faults for antagonising these thugs. It is not acceptable. This behaviour is not unique to Thailand, but it is quite unique for a supposedly top tourist destination. Everyone that makes excuses for these rapists and murderers are also part of the problem, it is not reasonable to say this is just part of the Thai psychy and we should all play along.

i agree wholeheartedly.

i agree ...as i said in my previous post...the thai authorities need to sort this shit out...its not acceptable.

maybe the guy was a <deleted>...and did a stupid thing.....but people cant be killed for just that....and it cant be excused...it happens to often...and for far less reasons.

he probably deserved a good thumping.....but when people stab someone 8 times they are definatley trying to kill them.

also this doesnt just happen to tourists...2 weeks ago i was in kamala...a thai guy had slapped a local girl in the face....her brother and all his mates caucht up with the guy outside the 7-11.....beat him up ...then not content with that the brother stabbed him in the chest and killed him.

[terry57]

I think we need to seperate the behaviour of Israelis and the behaviour of Thai locals on islands like Koh Phangan.

There are far too many people here on these boards who after spending many years in Thailand, make the typical excuses for the behaviour of Thai locals. There seems to be an attitude that only if we had all known better that Thais are on a short fuse then these things would not happen.

I've been many times to Phangan and have had a great time, but I did find the behaviour of many,many local Thai men abhorrent, these really are the worst kind of scum, and yes, they have all been drawn by the goings on at Haad Rin.

Please let's not make the mistake of saying that it is partly our faults for antagonising these thugs. It is not acceptable. This behaviour is not unique to Thailand, but it is quite unique for a supposedly top tourist destination. Everyone that makes excuses for these rapists and murderers are also part of the problem, it is not reasonable to say this is just part of the Thai psychy and we should all play along.

And no matter how many half-naked girls I saw at the FMP, I was never tempted to rape someone... so making any attempt to excuse the behaviour of people who do is really just pathetic.... Terry!!

Just to correct some misunderstandings here; alot if not most of the young Thai guys working Hadrin are not "locals" but usually from elsewhere: mainland Surat, Nakhon etc. Used to be my husband and I could go to Hadrin and know everybody. Now we rarely see a familiar face.

Also, be aware that it is not all Thai men raping girls on the beach, the FMP attracts its fair share of farang predators too. As I have heard first hand from girls who have been drugged and raped by western guys.

I agree, there isn't an excuse for murdering someone in this way, but I also believe that people who visit another country should at least not park their good manners at the departure gate in their home country. Far too many people come to Thailand and believe that they can do whatever they want, and certainly do things they would never do at home, and not have a problem.

oh my god,

dont say that SBK, or tax will bang you up for supporting murder and rape.

[terry57]

Please let's not make the mistake of saying that it is partly our faults for antagonising these thugs. It is not acceptable. This behaviour is not unique to Thailand, but it is quite unique for a supposedly top tourist destination. Everyone that makes excuses for these rapists and murderers are also part of the problem, it is not reasonable to say this is just part of the Thai psychy and we should all play along.

i agree wholeheartedly.

i agree ...as i said in my previous post...the thai authorities need to sort this shit out...its not acceptable.

maybe the guy was a <deleted>...and did a stupid thing.....but people cant be killed for just that....and it cant be excused...it happens to often...and for far less reasons.

he probably deserved a good thumping.....but when people stab someone 8 times they are definatley trying to kill them.

also this doesnt just happen to tourists...2 weeks ago i was in kamala...a thai guy had slapped a local girl in the face....her brother and all his mates caucht up with the guy outside the 7-11.....beat him up ...then not content with that the brother stabbed him in the chest and killed him.

there is one thing that all punters must take on board regards living and travelling in thailand.

you will never change the thai mind set of loss of face and revenge. its gone on forever and will continue for ever, and every one must play under there rules.

thats why 10,000,000 tourists come to thailand every year because they can have a brilliant holiday playing under looser rules enjoying themselves.

the majority go home with great memories and the minority go home in a box.

whats the big deal? as every country is the same.

many backpackers been killed travelling australia and google it if you dont believe me.

[cdnvic]

Actually, it wasn't Tax that was saying that, it was ourmanflint.

I've seen people killed for a lot less elsewhere.

Here's the bottom line:

Nothing excuses murder.

Nothing excuses rape.

Neither of the above will protect you from your own stupidity.

[the gent]

nothing that someone does in a bar should warrant their getting beat to death by a mob.

Agreed, being stingy or stupid, or a pain in the butt never warrants getting beaten (or stabbed in this case) to death by a mob.

But, a person doesn't start a fight in a bar without expecting something to happen. Unfortunately for this man, he underestimated his opponents and his ignorance of the behavior of young Thai men cost him his life.

The sheer barbarity and viciousness of young Thai men especially those running in packs should never be underestimated.

Essentially, when strong feelings are aroused they are beyond reason but that is not to say they are being uncivilized, at least in their own eyes. And that's the frightening thing about them.

To slaughter a fellow human being for a perceived insult is excusable behaviour since it is an extension of the brutality which is used to deal with any confrontation that cannot be resolved by one party simply walking away.

Don't pick fights with Thai, they can't deal with reasoned negotiation unless they are guaranteed success.

Edited April 2, 2007 by the gent

[terry57]

Actually, it wasn't Tax that was saying that, it was ourmanflint.

I've seen people killed for a lot less elsewhere.

Here's the bottom line:

Nothing excuses murder.

Nothing excuses rape.

Neither of the above will protect you from your own stupidity.

well picked up vic and i apologise to tax.

and to you flint, yes it was you after all and not tax.

[terry57]

nothing that someone does in a bar should warrant their getting beat to death by a mob.

Agreed, being stingy or stupid, or a pain in the butt never warrants getting beaten (or stabbed in this case) to death by a mob.

But, a person doesn't start a fight in a bar without expecting something to happen. Unfortunately for this man, he underestimated his opponents and his ignorance of the behavior of young Thai men cost him his life.

The sheer barbarity and viciousness of young Thai men especially those running in packs should never be underestimated.

Essentially, when strong feelings are aroused they are beyond reason but that is not to say they are being uncivilized, at least in their own eyes. And that's the frightening thing about them.

To slaughter a fellow human being for a perceived insult is excusable behaviour since it is an extension of the brutality which is used to deal with any confrontation that cannot be resolved by one party simply walking away.

Don't pick fights with Thai, they can't deal with reasoned negotiation unless they are guaranteed success.

that is the correct answer, but for some unknown reason some people will never accept that this is the way of the world in thailand. and think that they should change to suit all the other nations.

i mean if you dont cause problems you wont get problems most of the time.

some falang think that it should work the same as it does in farangland but we know much different dont we.

i say its bollicks, and falang should just behave themselves.

[sbk]

I just have to add one thing, from the observation of a friend who was there, this was NOT 5 Thai guys on one Israeli. This was a fight started by the Israeli, whose friends jumped in and then the Thai guy's friends jumped in. It was a barroom brawl. Which, unless I am mistaken, can have poor outcomes regardless of whichever country it occurs.

**edit** apparently the murder did not take place at the site of the brawl, so the fight must have continued on to somewhere else.

Bear in mind, its all second and third hand reporting, but the general consensus and recurring thread of the story was that the farang started the fight by spitting his drink in the Thai guy's face.

[ZukiSuzuki]

Spitting your drink in to a persons face could quite easily get you killed in any village, town or city accross the world.

You reap what you sow and in this case it was instant karma.

[terry57]

Spitting your drink in to a persons face could quite easily get you killed in any village, town or city accross the world.

You reap what you sow and in this case it was instant karma.

thank you very much mr suzuki, and i imagine the punishment for this crime in japan would be similar.

its enlightenning to have a japanese view on such a matter of interest.

i salute you.

thank you very much.

[taxexile]

The sheer barbarity and viciousness of young Thai men especially those running in packs should never be underestimated.

two years ago in bangkok i saw a young thai man kicked to death after saying something to one of a drunken teenage thai group not 10 feet from where i was standing , the police who were nearby made no attempt to arrest the gang. this was during the daytime.

if there is one piece of advice that every tourist , and , it would seem , especially israeli tourists ,should be given as they pass through the airport here into thailand , it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

[the gent]

Sbk,

I can well understand your position on this and to a certain degree must sympathise with your wish to treat this incident as an event that could and does take place anywhere else in the world. Certainly, your average tourist would probably agree and I suspect a fair proportion of TV members might well echo your sentiments.

But the truth of the matter is quite simple, there was never any doubt as to what the outcome of this brawl would be and anyone who has spent any appreciable time in Thailand knows that and the reason for it. Falang brawling with Thai can only ever have one outcome, the falang will always lose and it won't just be his dignity.

To argue otherwise is simply irresponsible.

[ZukiSuzuki]

Thank you terry57, and yes you are correct in your presumtion that an act such as this could quite easily result in a fatality if acted out in Japan, be it large city, small town or village it makes no difference, nor i may add, does the ethnicity of the persons involved, should it be between a Japanese person and another Japanese person or between a Japanese person and a 'round eye', the outcome could be the same.

Please note that 'round eye' is not used as a derogatory term for Westerners in Japan.

[0Mix1up]

it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

So I should fear all groups of Thai men in a bar/drinking?

[sbk]

Sbk,

I can well understand your position on this and to a certain degree must sympathise with your wish to treat this incident as an event that could and does take place anywhere else in the world. Certainly, your average tourist would probably agree and I suspect a fair proportion of TV members might well echo your sentiments.

But the truth of the matter is quite simple, there was never any doubt as to what the outcome of this brawl would be and anyone who has spent any appreciable time in Thailand knows that and the reason for it. Falang brawling with Thai can only ever have one outcome, the falang will always lose and it won't just be his dignity.

To argue otherwise is simply irresponsible.

I hope I haven't come across as somehow condoning this act by trying to explain it. I most certainly do not, far too many young lives are lost in this country and too many people I have known have been murdered because of some thoughtless act of violence from someone who thinks they have something to prove or some other such idiocy.

But, as terry states, it is a fact of life for Thailand, sad as it may be. Something we are all forced to live with, and to accept that it occurs should not be mistaken as accepting it as ok.

This has forced me to think about what seems to be an increase in violence towards farangs. I don't know if it is because it is getting reported more (or because of places like Thai Visa it is getting disseminated more widely) or if its because the widespread numbers of farang have diluted their "untouchableness". It used to be that no one would consider murdering a farang because the penalties would be severe. But, as has been proven, that isn't always the case, so perhaps its just that the fear of consequences of murdering a farang no longer exist.

Again, I have no statistics to say one way or the other if there is a real increase in crime against the foreigner, or if it is just a perceived increase because of more readily available information.

[meemiathai]

if there is one piece of advice that every tourist , and , it would seem , especially israeli tourists ,should be given as they pass through the airport here into thailand , it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

Agreed. The same could also be done to those british football hooligans when they go support their team overseas.

[bkkmadness]

if there is one piece of advice that every tourist , and , it would seem , especially israeli tourists ,should be given as they pass through the airport here into thailand , it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

Tax I know about the soi cowboy thing, I read your post a couple of years ago when it happened but you keep churning out this bit of advice and it sticks in my throat a bit. I've drunk with many a group of Thai males, strangers and from all sorts of backgrounds. I've never been attacked because I never spat a drink in their face. If you walked into a pub in the UK and spat a drink in someone's face you can expect a stabbing too.

[davidjtayler]

it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

So I should fear all groups of Thai men in a bar/drinking?

Don't worry about the groups of Thai men ... Just don't go spitting beer in anyones face !

[sbk]

it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

So I should fear all groups of Thai men in a bar/drinking?

Only if you are an aggressive mean drunk I'd think.

[meemiathai]

it was brilliant to see, as when the hitman pulled out his gun the israili started crying like a little baby and payed up what he owed us.

What sort of person posts something like this on a thread about the tragic death of a young man, regardless of his nationality?

Disgusting IMO.

R.I.P.

Have you cried yet?

[ourmanflint]

that is the correct answer, but for some unknown reason some people will never accept that this is the way of the world in thailand. and think that they should change to suit all the other nations.

i mean if you dont cause problems you wont get problems most of the time.

some falang think that it should work the same as it does in farangland but we know much different dont we.

i say its bollicks, and falang should just behave themselves.

Terry ...

that is the exact attitude I am talking about! You excuse it (yes...excuse!) by saying that this is Thailand and we should all go along with it. I am very sad that there are so many people like yourself that think this way, it really isn't helpful as the result is an ongoing ever increasing spiral of violence, especially against foreigners.

And if you had no intention of making an excuse for rapists of whatever nationality ( thank you SBK ) then why go ahead and point out your observations??

SBK, I completely agree with you that the young male population of Haad Rin is not solely composed of those born on the island, but many of them are! And yes it has certainly attracted the criminal class who see an easy target in the many tourists going crazy every month.

But yet again any attempt to excuse this as "this is Thailand" is wholly wrong, don't dodge the bullet! Everyone in Thailand has to play their part in vigourously voicing their displeasure at such atrocious behaviour, and that goes from people like yourself involved in local business and tourism up to the village and island heads, and all the way up to and including the King himself. Everybody should be trying to change Thailand and the Thai attitude that perpetuates this sudden and often lethal violence.

Do you really want things to stay the same??

[bkkmadness]

it was brilliant to see, as when the hitman pulled out his gun the israili started crying like a little baby and payed up what he owed us.

What sort of person posts something like this on a thread about the tragic death of a young man, regardless of his nationality?

Disgusting IMO.

R.I.P.

Oh god, not Terry and his Thai hitman experiences again.

[bkkmadness]

that is the exact attitude I am talking about! You excuse it (yes...excuse!) by saying that this is Thailand and we should all go along with it.

Terry is not excusing it, just explaining that is the way it is, and talking about it will not change anything soon. So, you either start looking after yourself or take a chance of becoming a victim.

[taxexile]

Tax I know about the soi cowboy thing, I read your post a couple of years ago when it happened but you keep churning out this bit of advice and it sticks in my throat a bit. I've drunk with many a group of Thai males, strangers and from all sorts of backgrounds. I've never been attacked because I never spat a drink in their face. If you walked into a pub in the UK and spat a drink in someone's face you can expect a stabbing too.

there are thai males and there are thai males , and obviously not all thai males who drink are going to kill you.

bkkmadness , you know the country and have had enough experience here to judge situations and the people you sit down with.

but for those people who are new to the country , for those who cant recognise the various "species" of males that frequent drinking places , and for those who cant tell the difference between the different kind of drinking places there are out there i would say my advice is valid .

in the same way that a newcomer to say , the uk , would be unable to judge the type of pub he was entering , or the type of person drinking there , until perhaps it is too late.

there are times when a lot less of an insult than spitting beer in someones face can get you a beating from a drunk youth with a chip on his shoulder and a group to impress. in any country.

[Globeliner]

if there is one piece of advice that every tourist , and , it would seem , especially israeli tourists ,should be given as they pass through the airport here into thailand , it should be never , ever drink or associate with groups of thai males who are drinking unless you know them or are familiar with their class and their background.

Tax I know about the soi cowboy thing, I read your post a couple of years ago when it happened but you keep churning out this bit of advice and it sticks in my throat a bit. I've drunk with many a group of Thai males, strangers and from all sorts of backgrounds. I've never been attacked because I never spat a drink in their face. If you walked into a pub in the UK and spat a drink in someone's face you can expect a stabbing too.

Totally agree with the above, moral of the story, don't spit drinks in peoples faces.

[ourmanflint]

The only thing we know for sure is that one Israeli is dead and that a group of Thais killed him!

Why that happened is up for conjecture!

[meemiathai]

that is the correct answer, but for some unknown reason some people will never accept that this is the way of the world in thailand. and think that they should change to suit all the other nations.

i mean if you dont cause problems you wont get problems most of the time.

some falang think that it should work the same as it does in farangland but we know much different dont we.

i say its bollicks, and falang should just behave themselves.

Terry ...

that is the exact attitude I am talking about! You excuse it (yes...excuse!) by saying that this is Thailand and we should all go along with it. I am very sad that there are so many people like yourself that think this way, it really isn't helpful as the result is an ongoing ever increasing spiral of violence, especially against foreigners.

And if you had no intention of making an excuse for rapists of whatever nationality ( thank you SBK ) then why go ahead and point out your observations??

SBK, I completely agree with you that the young male population of Haad Rin is not solely composed of those born on the island, but many of them are! And yes it has certainly attracted the criminal class who see an easy target in the many tourists going crazy every month.

But yet again any attempt to excuse this as "this is Thailand" is wholly wrong, don't dodge the bullet! Everyone in Thailand has to play their part in vigourously voicing their displeasure at such atrocious behaviour, and that goes from people like yourself involved in local business and tourism up to the village and island heads, and all the way up to and including the King himself. Everybody should be trying to change Thailand and the Thai attitude that perpetuates this sudden and often lethal violence.

Do you really want things to stay the same??

Agreed. I am sure if every tourist can pay attention to their own attitudes when they are in thailand, the way the thais treat them would be very much different.

No one here is trying to give excuse. People are just trying to figure out why things like these are happening. You are not trying to say that every tourist here is friendly, are you? I have seen enough babaric farangs in thailand and HK to give me quite a bad opinion. Not that I am suggesting this Isareli guy has done anything wrong, I am not commenting on this case coz I was not there to see.

If one is willing to walk into a jungle, then be prepared to play the jungle rules.