Popular Post scottiddled Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 I know this has been raised before, but it seems due for revisiting. Recently I went out to dinner at Jamie Oliver's restaurant downtown, and was dismayed to find a service charge on the bill. It's not that I'm shocked anymore, or that I'm an absolutist when it comes to boycotting places with service charges (it's really hard to do that unless you want to be the annoying friend who always vetoes possible restaurant/bar choices). The existence of the service charge wouldn't have changed my order that night, but what really annoyed me was that there was no legally required notice on the menu. When I brought this up, I got a very stereotypical Thai apology that the menu wasn't clear (they said they're remaking them) and was referred to the BACK of the menu where a super-small print service charge notice could be found. Um...ok. This got me thinking. Service charges were mildly annoying (and reeked of exploiting tourists) when I was a visitor, but now that I live here, it's clear this goes beyond the hospitality industry and is a cultural scourge that should be stamped out. Obviously, this topic is connected to others like tipping, but the biggest issue involved is transparency. And the arguments in favor of service charges are pathetically weak. At best, these arguments come down to "it's not that shady" or "it's just the way it is." Sorry, but that's not persuasive. Before I open this up, I want to put 3 points on the board. First, a service charge is not a tip. We know this. It's been covered elsewhere and in other threads. The establishment has total control over whether some/all of a service charge goes to the employees, and even if 100% of it does, it's still not a tip: tips are given voluntarily based on preference and/or the customers' assessment of the level of service. This post isn't even a broader indictment of tipping. I'm originally from a culture that tips fairly generously, and I'm a generous tipper even by those standards. Even in Thailand, I tip more often than most. I'm the last person to dictate where a thread should go, but it really shouldn't devolve into a squabble over tipping. There are good arguments for and and against cultures/systems that utilize tipping. Second, "that's just the way it is" is one of the worst imaginable arguments for the status quo on just about any issue. Whether it's a law, a custom, or a personal habit, "that's just the way it is" should be nothing more than a tie-breaker to be used when the pros and cons are equal. The fact that some establishments break out a bad policy does not justify others breaking out that same policy. If anything, it justifies either regulation against unfair practices (i.e. banning service charges so that establishments can't gain an illegitimate competitive advantage) or social action (e.g., boycotts) against shady practices and those who use them. That brings me to... Finally, service charges, by their very nature, deceptive. Any regulatory half-measures dealing with service charges only reduce--not eliminate--that deceptiveness. The bottom line is that any restaurant (or other business) that tacks on a service charge isn't displaying the actual price to the customer. If they don't disclose the service charge and then try to assess it, that deception reaches a level where "government" "officials" have said customers are justified in not paying it. Just because they separately list a some form of notice, whether it's in bold print, tiny print, or the intentionally vague "++," they're still deceiving customers with the listed price. The "service" of a meal, drink, haircut, massage, or widget has a price--not two prices--unless there is an added, optional component (e.g., delivery). If I have to pay you (not the government) an additional x%, then that price wasn't the price. The solution for businesses is really simple: just list the actual price you charge. If a business wants to pay their employees a flat wage, a salary, a percentage of sales (commission), or some combination, that's up to them. The listed price should be the price, minus any mandatory government fees (i.e. taxes). For government, they should ban the practice. Maybe some tiny loopholes can be carved out (e.g., delivery, large parties), but if there's no way to get something for the price advertised, that's not the price anymore. For consumers, I'm not willing to go so far as to scream "boycott everyone with a service charge!" Life's complicated enough. But I do avoid establishments with service charges when I can reasonably do so. And I think others should, as well. 21 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post CharlieH Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 Are you correct, possibly, but as with many things it's a personal preference and choice. If you object don't pay it or Don't use the establishment. You could also make it clear you won't return and will discourage others as you have here. The only one who can make a difference is the owner. Perhaps with enough complaints they might change. I would suggest that in heavy foot fall areas and rolling 1- 2 week population they wouldn't care as the benefits out way the complaints. The more high-end restaurants, I suggest the people who frequent those pay little attention to the cost of the food or anything else and just pay the bill as it's of little consequence to them. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NanLaew Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, scottiddled said: Recently I went out to dinner at Jamie Oliver's restaurant downtown, ... First mistake. 18 2 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meand Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 It is a business and this is a way for them to make more money. That is what businesses are supposed to do. If they make less money doing it they will probably stop. I found your argument particularly weak because you started with "it was not on the menu" then you were shown that it is in fact on the menu. If you were expecting it to be on the menu, and it was, isn't your argument already defeated? 6 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post scottiddled Posted January 5, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 47 minutes ago, CharlieH said: If you object don't pay it or Don't use the establishment. Thanks for the comment. I agree with most of your analysis. As for the "don't pay it," I'm not sure I follow you. My understanding is that it's not an option. Not using the establishment is, to be sure. Maybe I'm just misreading your syntax here (with the "or") in the sentence. If so, apologies. In the example I cited, I actually objected to the stealth service charge and pressed the issue. A manager-type woman came over and tried to muddle through the situation by explaining that they were rebranding and getting new menus, promising it would be "clearer" in the future, etc. I found her position very "Thai" in its contradiction: the polite apology and admitting that they need to do better combined with not resolving the matter in your favor. I've dealt with that again and again. Sometimes I won't let it go; it's not my fault they messed up, and I'm not going to accept the negative outcome. But when you're out with friends, you can either make a huge deal out of it, or you can make your point and move on. The Thai way in this regard is so short-sighted, at least when it comes to dealing with farang. Resolve this matter in the customers' favor and they'll probably come back. They'll probably also tip, so your servers aren't really losing out on that 10% anyway. Make a big stink over 10% and they won't ever return, and they'll take every last satang in change. It's a very strange take on face. Admitting that you're wrong but then not fixing the situation, in my view, is an even bigger slap in the face to the other party then standing your ground. You're basically saying "we know we screwed you, and we don't value you enough to make things right." The whole thing comes down to principles far more than money. Even if I don't care about a few hundred baht, or even if I'd ultimately tip that much (or more) anyway, I care about the principles. I wish others would, too. It'd cut down on the scams, exploitation, etc. I guess in some ways, farangs are more Thai than Thais when it comes to just letting it go. 9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OneMoreFarang Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 In good places the 10% service charge goes 100% to the staff. I have absolutely not problem with that. And in Thailand it is well known that 10% service charge is charged in almost all places. You can ask before you order and if you don't like it then walk away. Enjoy the weekend. 5 4 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post CharlieH Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, scottiddled said: Thanks for the comment. I agree with most of your analysis. As for the "don't pay it," I'm not sure I follow you. My understanding is that it's not an option. Not using the establishment is, to be sure. Maybe I'm just misreading your syntax here (with the "or") in the sentence. If so, apologies. In the example I cited, I actually objected to the stealth service charge and pressed the issue. A manager-type woman came over and tried to muddle through the situation by explaining that they were rebranding and getting new menus, promising it would be "clearer" in the future, etc. I found her position very "Thai" in its contradiction: the polite apology and admitting that they need to do better combined with not resolving the matter in your favor. I've dealt with that again and again. Sometimes I won't let it go; it's not my fault they messed up, and I'm not going to accept the negative outcome. But when you're out with friends, you can either make a huge deal out of it, or you can make your point and move on. The Thai way in this regard is so short-sighted, at least when it comes to dealing with farang. Resolve this matter in the customers' favor and they'll probably come back. They'll probably also tip, so your servers aren't really losing out on that 10% anyway. Make a big stink over 10% and they won't ever return, and they'll take every last satang in change. It's a very strange take on face. Admitting that you're wrong but then not fixing the situation, in my view, is an even bigger slap in the face to the other party then standing your ground. You're basically saying "we know we screwed you, and we don't value you enough to make things right." The whole thing comes down to principles far more than money. Even if I don't care about a few hundred baht, or even if I'd ultimately tip that much (or more) anyway, I care about the principles. I wish others would, too. It'd cut down on the scams, exploitation, etc. I guess in some ways, farangs are more Thai than Thais when it comes to just letting it go. Just to clarify, what I meant was refuse to pay it, if it wasnt clearly marked, create holy hell and embarrass them, if it gets to "we'll call the Police" etc then let them, and then pay it to avoid the obvious. But enough people do that they will soon change their ways. (IMHO) 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post topt Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said: And in Thailand it is well known that 10% service charge is charged in almost all places. Sorry but that is not true unless referring to only high end/high priced establishments. 12 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post stevenl Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said: In good places the 10% service charge goes 100% to the staff. I have absolutely not problem with that. And in Thailand it is well known that 10% service charge is charged in almost all places. You can ask before you order and if you don't like it then walk away. Enjoy the weekend. How do you know the service charge goes to the staff? And no, it is not charged in 'almost all places'. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meand Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said: In good places the 10% service charge goes 100% to the staff. I have absolutely not problem with that. And in Thailand it is well known that 10% service charge is charged in almost all places. You can ask before you order and if you don't like it then walk away. Enjoy the weekend. That first sentence. I really cannot believe you typed that out and then hit return. 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SteveK Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 So you are in the food paradise that is Bangkok and you go to Jamie Oliver's? Never mind. I also hate service charges, if they want to charge an extra 10% why don't they just increase the prices by 10%? Oh I know - they are hoping that customers don't notice and maybe order more food or drinks because they think the prices are cheaper. It's a scam if they don't declare the charge clearly. 20 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post scottiddled Posted January 5, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, meand said: I found your argument particularly weak because you started with "it was not on the menu" then you were shown that it is in fact on the menu. If you were expecting it to be on the menu, and it was, isn't your argument already defeated? You're doing a pretty selective reading there. Perhaps my attempt to write it as a linear narrative wound up muddling what happened, but I think the context was pretty clear. It wasn't visible to me on the menu when ordering. In other words, not on the front, not on any of the pages where the food (and prices) are listed, and therefore, when I got the bill, my wording that "it wasn't on the menu" was accurate. I was given a menu and read it from the front cover most of the way through (Did I look at the deserts? I'm not sure, to be honest.). I didn't see it. And I was looking for it. I wasn't fresh off the airport line, unaware that service charges exist in many Bangkok establishments. I didn't see "++" and not know what it meant. I didn't miss it due to laziness, poor eyesight, etc. And I wasn't trying to pull a fast one by seeing it but getting creative by seeing it elsewhere but realizing it wasn't on the specific page as my entree. When I brought the issue up, the manager instantly conceded that it wasn't clear and apologized. She promised that they'd soon have a clearer menu. I thanked them for that and told them that it still didn't resolve the current bill, as customers are not liable for unlisted service charges. She then essentially pulled a "well, technically it is listed" and pointed to the back page of the menu. While you might be confused and/or doing some clever online "dabaiting" by pointing out that I wrote: Quote there was no legally required notice on the menu and then wrote that they: Quote referred to the BACK of the menu where a super-small print service charge notice could be found ...at best you're splitting hairs. On a scale of deceptiveness, with 1 being totally transparent and 10 being not compliant with the law, what's sneaking a service charge notice on the back page? 9? It's a footnote without a footnote. A supposedly binding addendum after the signature page without any reference prior to you signing. It's shady at best, and I'd argue it still doesn't comply with the legal requirements for a notice of service charge. I wasn't ordering affogato or something from the kids menu or whatever was on the back page. I didn't get that far, and didn't need to. So when I wrote "there was no legally required notice on the menu," despite your apparent confusion, I stand by that. But really...is that the important takeaway? The degrees of shadiness (or laziness, or negligence, or indifference, or greed, or whatever) a business will go to in tacking on a service charge? This place didn't strike me as actively trying to defraud customers. Maybe it was an honest mistake. The bigger issue is that a service charge, no matter how it's disclosed, is deceptive. The manner of disclosure only makes it relatively more or less deceptive. If you really want to quibble over how deceptive a back-of-the-menu disclosure is, go right ahead. But that's really just slapping lipstick on a pig. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post stevenl Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, SteveK said: So you are in the food paradise that is Bangkok and you go to Jamie Oliver's? Never mind. I also hate service charges, if they want to charge an extra 10% why don't they just increase the prices by 10%? Oh I know - they are hoping that customers don't notice and maybe order more food or drinks because they think the prices are cheaper. It's a scam if they don't declare the charge clearly. Don't forget that if the service charge is extra also the VAT will be added. All in all almost 20% extra. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post scottiddled Posted January 5, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 14 minutes ago, CharlieH said: Just to clarify, what I meant was refuse to pay it, if it wasnt clearly marked, create holy hell and embarrass them, if it gets to "we'll call the Police" etc then let them, and then pay it to avoid the obvious. But enough people do that they will soon change their ways. (IMHO) I like your style. I'm totally on board with making a big stink, but sometimes you're with a group, have plans for later that evening, etc. This was one of those times. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
from the home of CC Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 20 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said: In good places the 10% service charge goes 100% to the staff. I have absolutely not problem with that. And in Thailand it is well known that 10% service charge is charged in almost all places. You can ask before you order and if you don't like it then walk away. Enjoy the weekend. we have this in Canada too in some places, I believe it was a response to cheap ass diners not tipping waiters who depend on gratuity to make a minimum wage job worth their while.. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Salerno Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, from the home of CC said: we have this in Canada too in some places, I believe it was a response to cheap ass diners not tipping waiters who depend on gratuity to make a minimum wage job worth their while.. Instead, how about "cheap ass" proprietors paying a decent wage in the first place (and yes, that will likely necessitate higher costs but better than hidden costs). Edited January 5, 2020 by Salerno 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meand Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, scottiddled said: You're doing a pretty selective reading there. Perhaps my attempt to write it as a linear narrative wound up muddling what happened, but I think the context was pretty clear. It wasn't visible to me on the menu when ordering. In other words, not on the front, not on any of the pages where the food (and prices) are listed, and therefore, when I got the bill, my wording that "it wasn't on the menu" was accurate. I was given a menu and read it from the front cover most of the way through (Did I look at the deserts? I'm not sure, to be honest.). I didn't see it. And I was looking for it. I wasn't fresh off the airport line, unaware that service charges exist in many Bangkok establishments. I didn't see "++" and not know what it meant. I didn't miss it due to laziness, poor eyesight, etc. And I wasn't trying to pull a fast one by seeing it but getting creative by seeing it elsewhere but realizing it wasn't on the specific page as my entree. When I brought the issue up, the manager instantly conceded that it wasn't clear and apologized. She promised that they'd soon have a clearer menu. I thanked them for that and told them that it still didn't resolve the current bill, as customers are not liable for unlisted service charges. She then essentially pulled a "well, technically it is listed" and pointed to the back page of the menu. While you might be confused and/or doing some clever online "dabaiting" by pointing out that I wrote: and then wrote that they: ...at best you're splitting hairs. On a scale of deceptiveness, with 1 being totally transparent and 10 being not compliant with the law, what's sneaking a service charge notice on the back page? 9? It's a footnote without a footnote. A supposedly binding addendum after the signature page without any reference prior to you signing. It's shady at best, and I'd argue it still doesn't comply with the legal requirements for a notice of service charge. I wasn't ordering affogato or something from the kids menu or whatever was on the back page. I didn't get that far, and didn't need to. So when I wrote "there was no legally required notice on the menu," despite your apparent confusion, I stand by that. But really...is that the important takeaway? The degrees of shadiness (or laziness, or negligence, or indifference, or greed, or whatever) a business will go to in tacking on a service charge? This place didn't strike me as actively trying to defraud customers. Maybe it was an honest mistake. The bigger issue is that a service charge, no matter how it's disclosed, is deceptive. The manner of disclosure only makes it relatively more or less deceptive. If you really want to quibble over how deceptive a back-of-the-menu disclosure is, go right ahead. But that's really just slapping lipstick on a pig. It was visible to you on the menu. You mentioned you saw it. Moreover, your premise was "it is not on the menu, so it is not fair/legal". But, it was on the menu. You defeated yourself in your opening statement. 2 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post from the home of CC Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Salerno said: Instead, how about "cheap ass" proprietors paying a decent wage in the first place (and yes, that will likely necessitate higher costs but better than hidden costs). Agree though where I'm from the costs aren't hidden. One of the reasons I don't eat out a lot is because besides hating pretentiousness, I find many folks think they can cook but fail and I've just been disappointed too many times both here and in the many countries I have traveled too. imo A lot of good food preparation and quality went down the tube about the same time as 'food porn' became popular - it's all about appearances now a days rather than substance.. Edited January 5, 2020 by from the home of CC 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Just Weird Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 39 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said: And in Thailand it is well known that 10% service charge is charged in almost all places. That's not the case at all. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenl Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, meand said: It was visible to you on the menu. You mentioned you saw it. Moreover, your premise was "it is not on the menu, so it is not fair/legal". But, it was on the menu. You defeated yourself in your opening statement. " f you really want to quibble over how deceptive a back-of-the-menu disclosure is, go right ahead. But that's really just slapping lipstick on a pig. " Apparently that is what he wants to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eindhoven Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 39 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said: In good places the 10% service charge goes 100% to the staff. I have absolutely not problem with that. And in Thailand it is well known that 10% service charge is charged in almost all places. You can ask before you order and if you don't like it then walk away. Enjoy the weekend. What does any of that actually mean? Good places? How does one know which are the good places that give 100% to the staff? 10% charged in almost all places? Another strange statement. You should do better than this. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post evadgib Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 hours ago, scottiddled said: First, a service charge is not a tip. We know this. It's been covered elsewhere and in other threads. The establishment has total control over whether some/all of a service charge goes to the employees, and even if 100% of it does, it's still not a tip: tips are given voluntarily based on preference and/or the customers' assessment of the level of service. This post isn't even a broader indictment of tipping. I'm originally from a culture that tips fairly generously, and I'm a generous tipper even by those standards. Even in Thailand, I tip more often than most. I'm the last person to dictate where a thread should go, but it really shouldn't devolve into a squabble over tipping. There are good arguments for and and against cultures/systems that utilize tipping. A service charge IS a tip or at least that is how I have always considered it & the law seemed to confirm same. 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Weird Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 30 minutes ago, SteveK said: It's a scam if they don't declare the charge clearly. In this case, the additional charges are shown on the menu in the same size font as the description of the menu items. http://jamieoliverkitchen-th.com/downloads/jok_bkk_mainmenu.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Weird Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 29 minutes ago, stevenl said: Don't forget that if the service charge is extra also the VAT will be added. All in all almost 20% extra. 17%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meand Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, stevenl said: " f you really want to quibble over how deceptive a back-of-the-menu disclosure is, go right ahead. But that's really just slapping lipstick on a pig. " Apparently that is what he wants to do. Wait. And please, stop the presses! I do think I understand now. You mean, a company, as they were communicating a price increase (or some other negative form of information), put the info in fine print somewhere! Wow! How dare they. Facebook and Instagram would never do that and give themselves say onerous rights to use your videos and photos. Utility companies would never put a price hike in fine print somewhere where you wont look on your old invoices. This stuff simply does not happen in everyday life. This is just shocking behavior that i simply do not see in everyday life. I am outraged. But wait, op's argument is even better. Using the power company, he complains they did not inform him on the invoice. But they did! So, not only is this everyday behavior, and in fact business 101 and the way corporations communicate negative info, but they also did in fact inform him, which was his gripe to begin with. Tough world it is. Edited January 5, 2020 by meand 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Weird Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 hours ago, scottiddled said: where a super-small print service charge notice could be found. The font is actually the same size as that used to describe the food, you could read that ok, couldn't you? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Triangle Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I don't have an issue with a service charge if I know that the money is being distributed equally amongst all the staff, so that not only do the waiting staff who served you get a divi up but also the person who washes the dishes, the cleaner who comes in and makes sure that the bathrooms are spick and span, so in fact the whole team involved in running the operation. That unfortunately, is very hard to find out. You could query the staff prior to ordering your food or whilst making your booking ? I have a good friend who works in one of the top hotels along Beach Rd, she is customer facing and regularly posts on her FB account how much each member of staff earned from the Service Charge for that month. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URMySunshine Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 In retirement the hours just stretch out in front of you until sadly they no longer do. A tip here and there doesn't go unnoticed particularly here maybe you are overthinking and/or just tight. ???? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Why Me Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 When I see a service charge I don't tip and figure that's a wash then. It's not an issue worth a post-dinner brawl. You don't want to leave an otherwise fine restaurant with a bad taste in your mouth (that's my pun for the day, I'm outta here). 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacuum Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 55 minutes ago, topt said: Sorry but that is not true unless referring to only high end/high priced establishments. Why would "high end/high priced establishments" need an extra 10 % ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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