Taking a Stand on Service Charges

[scottiddled]

8 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

Similar topic about tipping has been raised before. You must be American(USA)  as we are brought up to tip. In EU and other countries they don't tip which is why some places here add a service charge. If you don't like it then simply don't go there again but if I am with friends that wish to go anyway I am not going to make a big fuss about it or not go with them.

Agreed all around. 

[stevenl]

17 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

The above said, if visa charges them, and then the owner wants to then pass that on to me, then why the hell not charge me for his rent, electricity, staff etc etc.

He is, included in his prices.

 

But why should I, paying cash, pay for your convenience of accumulating cc points. But as I said, this is going off topic, I won't react to this anymore.

Edited January 6, 2020 by stevenl

[NoshowJones]

I carry a felt pen with me, and on the rare occasions I use a restaurant with the service charge in small print, I score the pen over it, have the correct money ready, then say "what service charge"?

Of course you can only do this if you  do not intend to use the restaurant again, for obvious reasons.

[scottiddled]

16 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

The service charge is "supposed to be" for the staff.  It have become a common thing to see added to a bill in a restaurant and hotel.  The idea is to replace teh cheap charlies that do not tip.  That being said is it abused ? Sure! Nothing we can do about it.

My policy is that I pay extra only once.  

If I pay a service fee then I thank the waitress for great service and tell her that her tip is in the service charge.

The problem I have with service charges is it removes my ability to leave a nickel tip when the service sucks.

I agree with some of this, but have to push back on a few. 

 

The "idea" is not to "replace the cheap charlies that do not tip." That can be accomplished without deceptive practices. Want 10% of sales to go to the staff to replace a "tip?" Then the business can just pay 10% of sales to the staff. If that requires increasing prices, then increase the prices. Once the concept extends to listing one figure for the good/service and then applying an additional 10% charge, then the price isn't the price anymore.

 

If a business really wants to break the wheel and give their employees a percentage of sales, instead of a flat salary or hourly wage, they could even print on the menu something like "prices include a 10% service charge that is given directly to employees." They don't do that. They choose instead to deceive consumers with regard to price.

 

And let's be honest, they're (usually) deceiving consumers with regard to the purpose of the surcharge, too. There have been plenty of threads, news articles, and first/second-hand accounts of what happens with service charges. We know that money is not directly given to employees as a gratuity. So the price isn't the price, and then you're charging a mandatory fee with the vague implication that it's akin to a tip, but it isn't.

 

In the OP I mentioned that I'd prefer not to get into a deeper philosophical discussion about tipping vs. not tipping. That's because both major schools of thought on that debate [should] be opposed to the status quo of service charges. If you oppose tipping, you tend to think service staff should be paid a fair wage and not be reliant on good business and/or the fickle generosity of customers. If you support tipping, you think service staff should be rewarded for good performance and that the tip--given based on the customers' satisfaction--goes directly to the staff and reflects the perceived value of the service.

 

Service charges, as used in Thailand, accomplish neither of those aims. 

 

Also, "nothing we can do about it" is a defeatist attitude that encourages more and more exploitation. Is it likely that a groundswell of opposition is going to rise up and make service charges anathema? Nope. Is there an outside chance that, given a critical mass of pressure, some places will roll back these policies? Sure. But that requires effort, not sabai sabai.

[scottiddled]

16 minutes ago, stevenl said:

He is, included in his prices.

 

But why should I, paying cash, pay for your convenience of accumulating cc points. But as I said, this is going off topic, I won't react to this anymore.

Agree with all of this. That said, I have no problem with the tangent. There is a difference between service charges and these issues, but fleshing out those differences is productive, IMHO.

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, meand said:

It is a business and this is a way for them to make more money. That is what businesses are supposed to do. If they make less money doing it they will probably stop. 

 

I found your argument particularly weak because you started with "it was not on the menu" then you were shown that it is in fact on the menu. If you were expecting it to be on the menu, and it was, isn't your argument already defeated?

It is nothing more than capitalism.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, scottiddled said:

Anyway, it's a minor quibble. I get that you're voting with your wallet in terms of what gets you the best price. I respect that. But I do think there's a fundmental difference between deceptive blanket charges and something imposed to reflect the real cost of different types of payments.

Summed up brilliantly and deceptive blanket charges are not for me ????

 

Have a good one.

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, topt said:

Sorry but that is not true unless referring to only high end/high priced establishments.  

It is not 10%, it is actually 17%, a bit of a difference.

[4MyEgo]

35 minutes ago, stevenl said:

He is, included in his prices.

 

But why should I, paying cash, pay for your convenience of accumulating cc points. But as I said, this is going off topic, I won't react to this anymore.

Just to clarify, I do not have a credit card, it is a debit card, I use my own money, straight from my savings account, and I do not earn reward points of any kind.

[NoshowJones]

21 hours ago, stevenl said:

Don't forget that if the service charge is extra also the VAT will be added. All in all almost 20% extra.

17%

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

17%

Almost 18. Don't forget to add the VAT over the service charge (or if you really want, the service charge over the VAT).

Edited January 6, 2020 by stevenl

[NoshowJones]

20 hours ago, Salerno said:

In my case it does, if I notice it they don't get a tip - win for me, loss for them 

That's fine, but just make sure that you do not return to that restaurant for obvious reasons.

[NoshowJones]

20 hours ago, Salerno said:

They don't 

It's mostly motorbikes.

[NoshowJones]

19 hours ago, tabarin said:

I hate it when they do it so sneaky, happened to me at an already expensive place in CM 2 weeks ago. 

 

You would think that 290B for a glass of wine is expensive enough and then find out a service charge on top of it.

 

At least they could clearly write it, like you don't put the prices of food and drinks in the smallest font too.

 

(On top of that they changed happy hour times without notice, many returning customers were unpleasant surprised by having a bill double the usual).

They must have been closing down.

[Straight8]

22 hours ago, SteveK said:

So you are in the food paradise that is Bangkok and you go to Jamie Oliver's? Never mind. I also hate service charges, if they want to charge an extra 10% why don't they just increase the prices by 10%? Oh I know - they are hoping that customers don't notice and maybe order more food or drinks because they think the prices are cheaper. It's a scam if they don't declare the charge clearly.

Coming from a country that does not pad your bill this way.....Agreed....., Nothing but a way to squeeze another 10% (maybe 17% + if the add the BS VAT in there), blatant ripoff, and I **** hate that sh*t.. and yes, I try not to go back to places like that. My choices are plenty!!!

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Straight8

[Straight8]

21 hours ago, Eindhoven said:

 

What does any of that actually mean? Good places? How does one know which are the good places that give 100% to the staff?

10% charged in almost all places? Another strange statement.

 

You should do better than this.

Yeah, in good places they see us coming from a mile away and know they can stitch them up for an extra 10% on top of what is already exuberant prices. A guess this is what he mwant by good places.. where everything is double the price. Must be good ha???

 

[Straight8]

21 hours ago, Just Weird said:

17%.

From my understand when they do the 10 % service and 7% VAT they add the 7% first then the 10% (or the other way round)  which ends up actually great than 17% ....CBF doing the math.

[Straight8]

21 hours ago, Just Weird said:

No need to help me, VAT is added before the service charge, so the (pedantic) figure is 17.7%, that's nearer 17% than 20%.  As I said.

and I bet some add the 10% first then the 7% making it over 18%

[Just Weird]

7 minutes ago, Straight8 said:

21 hours ago, Just Weird said:

No need to help me, VAT is added before the service charge, so the (pedantic) figure is 17.7%, that's nearer 17% than 20%.  As I said.

and I bet some add the 10% first then the 7% making it over 18%

I've never seen that; have you?

Edited January 6, 2020 by Just Weird

[jackdd]

I wonder if some posters here stopped going to school after elementary school level.

It doesn't matter if you calculate [price]*[1.10 service charge]*[1.07 vat], or do it the other way arround, the result is the same.

100 THB * 1.1 * 1.07 = 117.7 THB

100 THB * 1.07 * 1.1 = 117.7 THB

Edited January 6, 2020 by jackdd

[mahjongguy]

I don't care if a restaurant has a service charge but I need to know before I finalize the bill so I can adjust the tip accordingly. 

 

If the service charge appears on the bill as a line item them I'm fine. I see it, I tip less. Easy.

 

BUT, this happens to me all the time: bill is presented, approved by my partner, I hand over some cash. Change is brought, along with a simple 3 or 4 line printout. I start putting together some bills and coins that will be approximately 10% and then I say "Oh, was there a service charge?".  No reply, he doesn't know. The bill is gone, the menu is gone, so we have to get a waiter/waitress to ask the cashier, etc...

 

This happens in big chains that have everything computerized so it's not an oversight.

[OneMoreFarang]

4 hours ago, Acharn said:

Thais do not tip.

Really? It seems the Thai people I know are not really Thais - at least according to you.

[Straight8]

18 hours ago, scottiddled said:

I'll respectfully disagree with you here, even though it might seem counterintuitive given my opposition to service charges.

 

I'm OK with different prices for different forms of payment. I get that it can be frustrating, but this is something directly correllated with the business' cost of taking your payment. 

 

For a long time, I resisted going cashless. The different restaurants and bars would handle credit cards differently, which was confusing. But that confusion was understandable. Whether it was a minimum amount required for a card (i.e. they'll pay the processing fee because at least you spent enough), a cash discount off the menu price, or a surcharge for using a card, as long as it was properly disclosed, I had no issue with it. I actually preferred going to places that had at least one of these policies, since I knew they were passing along the cost of credit card processing to those who actually triggered that cost.

 

The banks don't like this. They support laws, regulations, and/or terms in processing agreements that limit merchants' ability to use two-tiered pricing. They talk a big game about the benefits of a cashless society (and some of their points are valid), but the bottom line is that once they achieve their goal of equilizing prices, they truly have "bent over" everyone, regardless of whether you are taking advantage of paying with a card.

 

So the prices are raised for everyone just to accomodate some. 

 

I still think it's a good idea to more fairly distribute those costs, but I get that (most) merchants have moved on. I eventually did, too, and started taking advantage of credit/debit card reward programs, churning, etc. At least that way I feel like I'm getting something back for the higher prices I pay.

 

 

Prices are raised for the fat cats to get fatter. 1% surcharge to accept payment by card for a business owner is a drop in the ocean, but start to be a deal breaker for consumers especially when they have other options.  Let these fat cats and the banks sort this sh!t out. If the people stop using cards gets guess who loses out? Until there is hard cold cash, we have options.

 

Greater risk losing the card and it getting skimmed as oppose to losing a few hundred dollars in my pocket. ANd you expect me to pay for making banks and business owners richer.. yeah Scottie, I'm a bit surprised by your stance on this given your spiel on the OP.

 

 

[Straight8]

20 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

I've never seen that; have you?

Pay close attention. I am sure you will come across this somewhere.

[Matzzon]

Really? Small text, big text, legal notice and whatever else you can make up to sound good and sincere.

Man, have you never been out eating? Just cook your food at home if a small little service charge going to annoy you or maby you should lower your class to McDonalds.

[rwill]

22 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

we have this in Canada too in some places, I believe it was a response to cheap ass diners not tipping waiters who depend on gratuity to make a minimum wage job worth their while..

In San Francisco they passed a law that restaurants must add a 25% service charge to the bill.  That money only goes to the front house people.  The reason it was passed into law is that most people receiving tips under report them for income tax purposes.  Of course 25% is over the top but a very liberal controlled city.

[Straight8]

12 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I wonder if some posters here stopped going to school after elementary school level.

It doesn't matter if you calculate [price]*[1.10 service charge]*[1.07 vat], or do it the other way arround, the result is the same.

100 THB * 1.1 * 1.07 = 117.7 THB

100 THB * 1.07 * 1.1 = 117.7 THB

I stand corrected..You are right. It does not matter!!!!

[ExpatOne]

That’s how they are doing it locally. They also double charge foreigners in some cases. 
 

You’re not a Thai and therefore you have no voice in how things are done here.

 

You can boycott the restaurants or leave the country at any time. Posting here accomplishes nothing.

[Mavideol]

23 hours ago, SteveK said:

So you are in the food paradise that is Bangkok and you go to Jamie Oliver's? Never mind. I also hate service charges, if they want to charge an extra 10% why don't they just increase the prices by 10%? Oh I know - they are hoping that customers don't notice and maybe order more food or drinks because they think the prices are cheaper. It's a scam if they don't declare the charge clearly.

have that argument last week at a well known place and asked to speak with the manager to no avail.... but that's not only Thailand, last month in Singapore had same argument and yes, again, manager no avail

[HashBrownHarry]

23 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Just to clarify, what I meant was refuse to pay it, if it wasnt clearly marked, create holy hell and embarrass them, if it gets to "we'll call the Police" etc then let them, and then pay it to avoid the obvious. But enough people do that they will soon change their ways. (IMHO)

I thought most people on here advocate never to get the police involved.

 

I think this is bad advice, it could end very badly.