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Taking a Stand on Service Charges


scottiddled

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23 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

we have this in Canada too in some places, I believe it was a response to cheap ass diners not tipping waiters who depend on gratuity to make a minimum wage job worth their while..

Instead of having a tipping culture, surely it's better to charge a little more for each dish and pay the staff a higher wage? Far, far simpler, especially for tourists.

 

I despise the tipping culture in general, it makes workers greedy and rush to see how much money they got. Once I was in Las Vegas and lost $100 on craps in maybe 2 minutes, as I walked away from the table the croupier made a snide and crude comment about me being British, my buddy said he wanted a tip. After I had lost $100, they still want a tip and are quite happy to be rude and aggressive about it.

 

I'd much rather have clear and transparent pricing with decent wages for the staff without some kind of unwritten rule about having to leave extra which always causes confusion.

Edited by SteveK
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4 hours ago, Mac98 said:

I'm guessing, but restaurant tipping in Thailand has always been described as "leaving behind a few spare baht". I imagine the nicer places want to ensure their experienced wait staff makes a decent amount by adding the service charge. If the owner keeps the service charge for him/her self they will soon be without desirable wait staff. But 100% to the waiter/waitress? Unlikely. Probably shared with hostess and some kitchen staff.

I've lived in Thailand 37 years. I mostly lived up-country or in parts of Bangkok where farang rarely go. I would defer to a Thai if one disputes me. but my experience is that Thais do not tip. They do not leave "a few spare baht." If they have "a few spare baht" they will donate it to one of the beggars by the roadside. You must bear in mind the origins of the Thai economy, which was largely non-monetary until after World War II. Slavery was not abolished until 1905, and it was not the race-based slavery that existed in seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth century farangland. If you speak Thai you may have noticed Thais rarely say thank you. You do not thank a servant, slave, or employee for doing their job. Thai restaurants pay a fair wage. It may seem absurdly low to a (omparatively) rich farang, but it actually is a living wage.

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52 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I wonder if some posters here stopped going to school after elementary school level.

It doesn't matter if you calculate [price]*[1.10 service charge]*[1.07 vat], or do it the other way arround, the result is the same.

100 THB * 1.1 * 1.07 = 117.7 THB

100 THB * 1.07 * 1.1 = 117.7 THB

 

39 minutes ago, Straight8 said:

I stand corrected..You are right. It does not matter!!!!

Mathematically correct, but wrong for a different reason. This assumes it's all multiplication and correctly argues that the order of operations doesn't matter. A service charge should (if we're to delude ourselves into thinking a service charge is a "tip" to employees and not going to the merchant) be added independent of any tax. Ergo:

 

(Price * 1.07) + (.10 * price) = total

 

In the case of a 1000 baht bill...

 

(1000 * 1.07) + (1000 * .1) = 1170

instead of...

1000*1.1*1.07 = 1177

 

Small potatoes, perhaps, but still a good illustration of how it's another line item on the bill and not a really a tip, as one needn't add tax to a tip.

 

 

 

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The original poster seems to fail to take into account, that in the US, the sticker price is rarely the price paid. So, in this case, a service charge can be considered as similar.

In countries where tips are required to ensure staff are paid the minimum wage, the regulation enforcing such minimum wage is lacking. I'm sure the country's revenue service looks at this closely.

Displayed prices of meals should include all overheads, so that a diner can decide whether the service delivered deserves rewarding with a tip. A tip should not be mandatory, nor a service charge levied.

Just put the damn prices displayed, at the level where all costs are covered.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

"Even in Thailand, I tip more often than most."

I do hope you understand that a tip in Thailand is not a percentage of the total cost. It doesn't work that way. Many thai people never give more than 20-30 baht even if the bill is quite expensive. Many westerners don't understand this and tip way to much. In the late 80's in many thai restaurants, they weren't even used to it. Sometime I left 10-15 baht in small change and they came running after me saying I forgot my money. 

I understand it. And the longer I'm here, the more I inch closer to the normal Thai way of doing things.

 

But it's hard to completely abandon one's cultural norms. I'm not about to automatically get rid of my values completely just because things are "different" somewhere else. Instead, I try to pay attention to the intercultural contexts and blend my values and the norms.

 

Example: a few times a week I take a taxi trip that costs around 72 baht. I almost always whip out a 100 baht bill. I just take the 20 baht bill back and say thank you (in my poor Thai), trying to combine being friendly, apprecaitive, and a vibe of "I'm in a hurry and don't want to wait for you to fish through your coins." I do that knowing that 80 baht for that taxi ride is peanuts to me, a puny profit margin for the driver (given the bad regulatory structure), and takes the driver away from an active taxi stand to a place where they'll have a hard time getting a fare quickly. My ~10% tip would be on the low side in my own culture, and is on the high side (although debatably in the normal range of the "leave the spare coins" approach). 

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I went to a restaurant here and when the bill came I thought it was more than it should be but they gave me the menu and it was right. The next time I went I took picture of menu ,when the bill came it looked high ,they gave me back the menu and when I compared it with my picture on phone it was not same prices , I never go there again and I paid less than they wanted

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On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2020 at 1:25 PM, scottiddled said:

Thanks for the comment. I agree with most of your analysis.

 

As for the "don't pay it," I'm not sure I follow you. My understanding is that it's not an option. Not using the establishment is, to be sure. Maybe I'm just misreading your syntax here (with the "or") in the sentence. If so, apologies.

 

In the example I cited, I actually objected to the stealth service charge and pressed the issue. A manager-type woman came over and tried to muddle through the situation by explaining that they were rebranding and getting new menus, promising it would be "clearer" in the future, etc. I found her position very "Thai" in its contradiction: the polite apology and admitting that they need to do better combined with not resolving the matter in your favor. I've dealt with that again and again. Sometimes I won't let it go; it's not my fault they messed up, and I'm not going to accept the negative outcome. But when you're out with friends, you can either make a huge deal out of it, or you can make your point and move on. 

 

The Thai way in this regard is so short-sighted, at least when it comes to dealing with farang. Resolve this matter in the customers' favor and they'll probably come back. They'll probably also tip, so your servers aren't really losing out on that 10% anyway. Make a big stink over 10% and they won't ever return, and they'll take every last satang in change. It's a very strange take on face. Admitting that you're wrong but then not fixing the situation, in my view, is an even bigger slap in the face to the other party then standing your ground. You're basically saying "we know we screwed you, and we don't value you enough to make things right."

 

The whole thing comes down to principles far more than money. Even if I don't care about a few hundred baht, or even if I'd ultimately tip that much (or more) anyway, I care about the principles. I wish others would, too. It'd cut down on the scams, exploitation, etc. I guess in some ways, farangs are more Thai than Thais when it comes to just letting it go.

The notice was there but not big enough for you. Go somewhere else cheaper.

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On 1/5/2020 at 1:46 PM, scottiddled said:

I like your style.

 

I'm totally on board with making a big stink, but sometimes you're with a group, have plans for later that evening, etc. This was one of those times. 

A friend of mine back in the UK, reasonably well-educated, and very down to Earth and decent sort of guy, took his girlfriend to an Indian restaurant, but not just any restaurant, the best one in town. He knew it would be expensive. When his curry came, there were three small pieces of meat in it, he reckons less than half a chicken breast, so spoke to the waiter and told him that they could either bring another one for free or he won't pay for the one he was served as it was basically a complete rip-off, and some words were exchanged.

 

It became some kind of Mexican stand-off, I don't think his girlfriend was too impressed but this guy is someone who won't back down if he thinks he is right. This culminated in lots of arguing, the manager being called, and ultimately the police attending. When the police arrived they said quite simply that it was a civil matter and they were not interested. But they mediated, and said to my friend "OK so if you won't pay for the meal, can you pay what you would consider appropriate for what you guys have eaten?". He says certainly, gave them 20 quid and that was the end of it.

 

The restaurant is now closed.

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51 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

The notice was there but not big enough for you. Go somewhere else cheaper.

*yawn*

 

I looked for a notice and saw none. My vision is fine. A notice placed on the back page of the menu mixed in with social media contact, and deliberately (or negligently) omitted from the front or any page with food items on it...is not a "clear notice" as required by law and any sense of common decency.

 

Money is not the issue. That much has been clear since post #1 of this thread.

 

You're on the wrong side. 

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The two menu scam has been going on for years. They either have a Thai menu with lower prices or an after the bill has been requested menu showing higher prices. I suspect that very few customers remember if their duck curry costed 120 or 150 baht and as such I have no doubt that it has been very successful in extracting extra cash from tourists, with very few of them noticing. Most westerners wouldn't bother complaining over an extra $5 on the bill, even if they actually noticed it, but for the Thais it's a license to print money, basically theft.

Edited by SteveK
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5 hours ago, possum1931 said:
  On 1/5/2020 at 1:34 PM, topt said:

Sorry but that is not true unless referring to only high end/high priced establishments.  

 

5 hours ago, possum1931 said:

It is not 10%, it is actually 17%, a bit of a difference.

I think you may have quoted the wrong person........

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11 hours ago, scottiddled said:

 

Mathematically correct, but wrong for a different reason. This assumes it's all multiplication and correctly argues that the order of operations doesn't matter. A service charge should (if we're to delude ourselves into thinking a service charge is a "tip" to employees and not going to the merchant) be added independent of any tax. Ergo:

 

(Price * 1.07) + (.10 * price) = total

 

In the case of a 1000 baht bill...

 

(1000 * 1.07) + (1000 * .1) = 1170

instead of...

1000*1.1*1.07 = 1177

 

Small potatoes, perhaps, but still a good illustration of how it's another line item on the bill and not a really a tip, as one needn't add tax to a tip.

 

 

 

Now in the US often now attached a tipping guide can be found "for your convenience".

Most people have a mobile handy even if they have no math skills

Tip shown is always based on subtotal plus tax so they expect a 20% tip on the TAX also!?!

 

IMG_2295.jpg

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1 hour ago, Snow Leopard said:

There should be a mandatory notice posted on the door and or on the first page of the menu in big bold letters stating that this restaurant charges a 10% Service Charge. That way everyone has a choice.

 

You are not going to go into a restaurant, sit down, go through the menu process and then see in small letters at the bottom of the page that a 10% Service Charge will be applied to your bill. Who is going to get up and walk out at this point?

 

My first point is this, The Service Charge notice is always posted somewhere not easily noticeable. This in any normal way in a contract or in a set of Terms & Conditions would be called Small Print. Small Print never usually works out in favour of the Punter. 

 

My second point is this, Why would a restaurant which is in the food service business add a Service Charge in the first place. Does a TV Manufacturer add a Manufacturing Charge. No it doesn't so why would a business involved in a Service Business add a Service Charge? It is a complete and utter stealth charge and a way of squeezing out more cash from the punter.  

 

So if it is not a Stealth Charge and you can openly face the public and defend your point then post it where everyone can see it. If not then don't charge it. 

 

Being the cynic i am, I know this extra money in most cases never sees the pocket of the serving staff as well. 

 

 

In this case I think Jamie Oliver is behind it. He's going broke soon and need every penny (bath). ????

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It reminds me a champion of this forum who owned hotels (and failed as with everything he did) and was thinking few years ago that charging people for Wifi was a good idea. How people can have to stupid and clearly wrong ideas if beyond understanding.

 

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On 1/5/2020 at 1:45 PM, scottiddled said:

You're doing a pretty selective reading there. Perhaps my attempt to write it as a linear narrative wound up muddling what happened, but I think the context was pretty clear.

 

It wasn't visible to me on the menu when ordering. In other words, not on the front, not on any of the pages where the food (and prices) are listed, and therefore, when I got the bill, my wording that "it wasn't on the menu" was accurate. I was given a menu and read it from the front cover most of the way through (Did I look at the deserts? I'm not sure, to be honest.). I didn't see it. And I was looking for it. I wasn't fresh off the airport line, unaware that service charges exist in many Bangkok establishments. I didn't see "++" and not know what it meant. I didn't miss it due to laziness, poor eyesight, etc. And I wasn't trying to pull a fast one by seeing it but getting creative by seeing it elsewhere but realizing it wasn't on the specific page as my entree.

 

When I brought the issue up, the manager instantly conceded that it wasn't clear and apologized. She promised that they'd soon have a clearer menu. I thanked them for that and told them that it still didn't resolve the current bill, as customers are not liable for unlisted service charges. She then essentially pulled a "well, technically it is listed" and pointed to the back page of the menu.

 

While you might be confused and/or doing some clever online "dabaiting" by pointing out that I wrote:

and then wrote that they:

...at best you're splitting hairs. On a scale of deceptiveness, with 1 being totally transparent and 10 being not compliant with the law, what's sneaking a service charge notice on the back page? 9? 

 

It's a footnote without a footnote. A supposedly binding addendum after the signature page without any reference prior to you signing. It's shady at best, and I'd argue it still doesn't comply with the legal requirements for a notice of service charge. I wasn't ordering affogato or something from the kids menu or whatever was on the back page. I didn't get that far, and didn't need to. So when I wrote "there was no legally required notice on the menu," despite your apparent confusion, I stand by that.

 

But really...is that the important takeaway? The degrees of shadiness (or laziness, or negligence, or indifference, or greed, or whatever) a business will go to in tacking on a service charge? This place didn't strike me as actively trying to defraud customers. Maybe it was an honest mistake.

 

The bigger issue is that a service charge, no matter how it's disclosed, is deceptive. The manner of disclosure only makes it relatively more or less deceptive. If you really want to quibble over how deceptive a back-of-the-menu disclosure is, go right ahead. But that's really just slapping lipstick on a pig.

I disagree completely.  I look on the front or on the back of the menu. Easy. You are being OTT. Too many long posts within the post. So I’m done after page three. 

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I assume ever place that is air conditioned and does not require you to stand in line for your food will have a service charge, that way I’m never disappointed. 
 

I’d the service is good, and they don’t levy a service charge I tip. If a service charge is added I don’t tip. 
 

If they add a service charge and a include a space for a tip on the bill, I circle the service charge and draw an arrow pointing it to the “tip” space. 
 

I don’t care one way or another about it. If the food and service is good and the total cost fair, I go back. It’s the food or service is bad, or I don’t like the price I don’t. 
 

I do think it interesting that it always seems to “big tippers” that squeal the loudest about service charges...

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If you have already paid for 'service' don't leave a tip. The Thai staff will hate this and the restaurant will have trouble getting good staff. Service will go downhill leading to fewer customers. The owner will put the prices up or increase the service charge or both. Eventually the restaurant will close and a new one week open.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

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i recently returned from a break outside the country to find one of my favourite restaurants had been taken over by a foreigner, i ate there despite 30% price because the food used to be good. the food wasn't good any more. but what sealed the deal was the 10% added to my bill, no other restaurants in my area do this, i queried the final amount and the guy told be it's a tip, it was only 15 baht but it's the principle. i checked the menu and signs but nothing indicated this hidden 'tip'. i asked him again if the higher amount was what he wanted me to pay, he said yes. I paid and told him i'd never eat there again. i actually made a point of frequenting the restaurant opposite ????

 

that was three months ago, the restaurant is now out of business.

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On 1/5/2020 at 9:50 PM, fhickson said:

i had a service charge the other night (10%). strangely i found it appealing for these reasons:

 

1. the beer was not flat

2. the beer was ice cold in a frosty mug, even has ice crystals in it

3. i did not need to worry about a tip (yep)

4. beer was refilled promptly (i never had to get up out of my seat!)

 

this never happens at places without the charge.

 

1. Why shouldn't it? All of that is average service.

2. Why is the charge better for you not inclusive in the total price?

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On 1/5/2020 at 2:12 PM, Just Weird said:

In this case, the additional charges are shown on the menu in the same size font as the description of the menu items.

 

http://jamieoliverkitchen-th.com/downloads/jok_bkk_mainmenu.pdf

So they are, except that they are at the very bottom of the last page.  When finished choosing food, I'd say 99% of people will then just close the menu and hand it back without a minute inspection of every inch of the menu.  It's my view that restaurants prey on that lack of attention in the hope of screwing more money from customers.

I do have to wonder about this pretty obvious somewhat obsessive stance of the OP though.  We've all done it - discovered too late that a service charge was added and kicked ourselves for OUR OWN mistake for not checking properly but then paid up, perhaps ruefully, but paid and made a mental note to check more thoroughly next time.

I get the feeling that the OP has done that, but then decided to vent on here.  Understandable, but ultimately futile.  Learn from the experience and make sure you check properly first.  After all, it's an upscale restaurant in a tourist area and almost all places like that add service.  Think yourself lucky it was only 10% - in the UK or US it would more likely be 20%.

The place even has its own website which could have been checked first.  Just Google beforehand and if you see a service charge, then simply don't go.  Having said that, I very much doubt any hi-so restaurant in down town Bangers would NOT charge service.

It would have been better to have gone further out of town if you want to avoid paying more.

 

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On 1/5/2020 at 7:55 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

Why?

1. I know it's true in restaurants which I visit.

2. I think waiters and cooks should get a reasonable income.

3. The staff has to be paid. Does it matter if a restaurant charges i.e. 1000B + 10% services charge or 1100B and "no" service charge? It's the same.

Service charge should be discretionary dependant on how you perceived the service,if it's kak  you shouldn,t have to pay it.

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On 1/5/2020 at 2:47 PM, Just Weird said:

No need to help me, VAT is added before the service charge, so the (pedantic) figure is 17.7%, that's nearer 17% than 20%.  As I said.

No, VAT isn't added before the service charge, it's added afterwards, so there is a slight amount extra.  And if you want to be pedantic, 17.7 is nearer to 18 than 17.  

And you are carefully omitting the fact he said ALMOST 20%.  Now, coupled with the obsessiveness of the OP and your own, I'm starting to wonder about some of the contributors to this thread.

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On 1/5/2020 at 7:18 PM, scottiddled said:

Not sure everything is quoted or priced that way, but you still convinced me. I guess it's a U.S. thing--expecting tax to be added. You're right that VAT is supposed to be an embedded tax.

What I find very odd is that you obviously come from a culture where tax or service is added to the displayed price so you must be used to it, but you come here and bleat when it happens in just the way you are used to?

 

CAre to explain that anomaly?  Omne second thought, don't.  DEspite being retired, I don't have the time to scroll through yet another post of interminable self-justification over what is, in practice, something we all know about.

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