2020: Crackdown on tourists working without work permits - 50K fines and deportation awaits

[LivinLOS]

10 hours ago, balo said:

You used that comment before on me, when we discussed this a year ago,  and I will give you the same answer again . 

My business is in Europe, in Norway, and I pay my taxes there. My salary is there, my bank account is there.  If I need money in Thailand I will use my foreign ATM card or make a transfer. 

I live in Europe part of the year, but I also live in Thailand on a 1 year visa, based on retirement. I am semi retired, even if I am in Thailand I can still maintain my business in Norway, I can still answer e-mails and have Skype conversations . Like so many others. 

Would I be willing to take part in an "experiment " to see if the labor dep and immigration approve on my activities?  Since this is Thailand and "anything" can happen I would not risk it. But I would feel confident nothing bad would happen to me.

Because I do not earn my money in Thailand, simple as that. 

 

So the answer is no.. You not confident in your claims. 

 

You earn your money where you physically are when the work is performed.. If no work is performed and it is passive income, royalties etc, then your not working. If you perform actions, mental or physical, while in Thailand, that is work done here and you absolutely know the labour dept will again confirm this. 

[LivinLOS]

9 hours ago, DrTuner said:

It wouldn't be the immigration, it would be the Revenue Department hunting you down. Pensions are often mentioned in the double taxation treatments and taxed at the source, which is all legit. In case of investments, back to gray area. Is it an investment that requires active involvement (which could be seen as work) or a passive one like owning a part of a company. Again, clear as mud and up to the whims of Thai officials.

Actually it would be the labour dept and the employment office whose remit this would fall under. 

Secondly pensions are complex but they are not automatically taxed at source, some are, but in general for europeans most non governmental pensions are tax due. If you are tax resident in Thailand it is up the the receiver to clear thier tax residency from the source country and claim it back for there as a non resident, and pay it here. To date Thailand has shown no interest in that revenue stream but I fear that is another potential shoe to drop. It is trivial to prove for those who use the income method of pensions as they are literally signing that fact themselves each year. To Thailand its free money by only punishing non Thais. 

As to the last part yes I agree a freelancer visa and tax solution could be designed as a win win, however when you listen to what online working folks expect (the entire package to be less than 1k usd annually tax included for an infinite amount of earnings) its often entirely unrealistic. You could also argue by allowing BOI solutions to this they are tacitly saying this is what they can achieve, but again folks scoff at the idea of actually paying corporate costs and taxes when then offer is costed and presented to them. 

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, balo said:

Of course it is , I have no intentions to work for a Thai company or anything related to Thailand.

Fine answer but totally irrelevant... 

 

That isnt that standard, as you well know.. 

[Assurancetourix]

12 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

You earn your money where you physically are when the work is performed..

You did not understand anything ;
Balo earns his living with the company he has in Norway.

In addition, it is not Balo who earns money but his company which is in Norway.
and it is his company which is in Norway which gives him a salary;
this is paid into his bank account in Norway;
then he uses his CB to withdraw money from an ATM in Thailand or in the country where he is ..
That's it, do you understand?
If he uses the internet it is only to save time because the Post Office or the smoke signals work slower.
That's all .
if he is in the USA when a client of his company needs him, he answers him, that does not mean that he works in the USA;
ditto with Thailand or North Korea.

[LivinLOS]

7 minutes ago, Assurancetourix said:

You did not understand anything ;
Balo earns his living with the company he has in Norway.

In addition, it is not Balo who earns money but his company which is in Norway.
and it is his company which is in Norway which gives him a salary;
this is paid into his bank account in Norway;
then he uses his CB to withdraw money from an ATM in Thailand or in the country where he is ..
That's it, do you understand?
If he uses the internet it is only to save time because the Post Office or the smoke signals work slower.
That's all .
if he is in the USA when a client of his company needs him, he answers him, that does not mean that he works in the USA;
ditto with Thailand or North Korea.

I understand perfectly.. 

 

If he is performing work for that company, while he is in Thailand.. That breaks Thai labour law. Clear as day. Doesnt matter if he uses the internet, the post office, or smoke signals. The law is where you physically are at the time the work is performed (thats called a physical presence test) from day 1. Western countries, europe, usa etc do not operate this way and allow non domestic workers different rights. BTW this is my specialist subject, I am and have been for decades a cross border labour specialist providing consultancy, tax advice, and currently doing multi million turnover exclusively supplying cross border workers globally, I have actually read the OECD model conventions and applied them in practice for my own benefit. Prior I owned and financed a fintech product involving administering pensions. Both of these topics are the things that have made my entire work life. 

The fact is enforcement of that law in Thailand is difficult and hard to prove, with risk to Thailand's PR so people confuse enforcement with legality, but that is the law. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by LivinLOS

[Assurancetourix]

5 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

The law is where you physically are at the time the work is performed (thats called a physical presence test)

It's ridiculous ; 

but nothing can surprise me from army who illegally seized power in a country ...

In that case they can fire all foreigners who live in Thailand and who receive money from a rental in their country of origin or their retirement paid obviously from a country other than Thailand.
It's very big anything

[LivinLOS]

Just now, Assurancetourix said:

It's ridiculous ; 

but nothing can surprise me from army who illegally seized power in a country ...

In that case they can fire all foreigners who live in Thailand and who receive money from a rental in their country of origin or their retirement paid obviously from a country other than Thailand.
It's very big anything

No.. Your clearly not really informed on the topic. Owning income producing assets is not work. 

Rental income is passive. Like royalties, commissions, dividends, or other income which is not derived from activity. These are not 'work'. Neither is investment returns, owning assets for dividend or yield, eg buying holding or selling stocks, commodities, or other financial instruments.  

[bbabythai]

On 1/6/2020 at 9:06 AM, ChipButty said:

Dont get caught cleaning your windows

No offense intended but your comment is stupid and fear mongering. Last year I asked immigration if I can paint and clean outside our building. He said it’s ok as long as I have I’m not getting paid. Last week I told them I’m doing renos at another building. He said no problem and to call him if any issues 

[Yadon Toploy]

8 minutes ago, bbabythai said:

No offense intended but your comment is stupid and fear mongering.

I think it is referring to an actual case of a foreigner arrested for doing domestic chores mate.

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Yadon Toploy said:

I think it is referring to an actual case of a foreigner arrested for doing domestic chores mate.

This fable has been doing the rounds for as long as I have lived here. Unless or until credible evidence surfaces i'll continue to treat it as 'bloke-in-a-pub' nonsense.

[Kenny202]

26 minutes ago, evadgib said:

This fable has been doing the rounds for as long as I have lived here. Unless or until credible evidence surfaces i'll continue to treat it as 'bloke-in-a-pub' nonsense.

I agree. Total rubbish. As said before I find particularly immigration here extremely tolerant and reasonable. I actually think you would have to do something particularly extreme to have a problem. For eg the guy working with his wife cooking bbq chicken....he was wanted by interpol for particularly serious crimes. His arrest had nothing to do with BBQ chicken

[DrTuner]

5 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

The fact is enforcement of that law in Thailand is difficult and hard to prove, with risk to Thailand's PR so people confuse enforcement with legality, but that is the law. 

Indeed. The same can be said for the "freedoms" people used to go on about a decade ago. The actual laws regarding prostitution, alcohol etc are pretty strict, but lack of enforcement led people to believe it really is up to you. Now that Thais are enforcing some of it, same people scream bloody murder. 

 

I'd prefer 100% strict enforcement of everything. Then, when it's obvious the laws are far too strict, change them. Not enforce whatever you happen to fancy in whichever way you happen to fancy.

Edited January 11, 2020 by DrTuner

[Isaanbiker]

42 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

I agree. Total rubbish. As said before I find particularly immigration here extremely tolerant and reasonable. I actually think you would have to do something particularly extreme to have a problem. For eg the guy working with his wife cooking bbq chicken....he was wanted by interpol for particularly serious crimes. His arrest had nothing to do with BBQ chicken

You're so right. His arrest occurred because a Thai posted a video/photos of him "helping" his poor Isaan wife to sell BBQ chicken.

 

  Nothing wrong if they catch a criminal, while I disagree that an older foreigner who's spent his life savings here is called a criminal when on a 20 day overstay.

 

I've seen posts here where individual members seem to be holier than the Pope himself. 

 

And I'm confident that some of these holy members have called the particular number to get somebody arrested, just because he had a better life. 

When will foreigners living in LOS finally understand that we're all sitting in the same boat?

 

  

 

 

[mokwit]

15 hours ago, Isaanbiker said:

When will foreigners living in LOS finally understand that we're all sitting in the same boat?

The self styled "good" falangs don't get it. They think the The way they perceive themselves is the way the Thai's perceive them.

[DrTuner]

23 hours ago, Isaanbiker said:

When will foreigners living in LOS finally understand that we're all sitting in the same boat?

Hell no, I ain't getting into the hoi polloi boat, I paid good cash for my elite thingydoo and my <deleted> is golden. 

 

Just because somebody is non-Thai does not make them blood brothers. I for one have very little in common with Indians, Chinese or even the Russians. 

[Yadon Toploy]

On 1/11/2020 at 12:06 PM, evadgib said:

This fable has been doing the rounds for as long as I have lived here. Unless or until credible evidence surfaces i'll continue to treat it as 'bloke-in-a-pub' nonsense.

Knowing Thailand as well as I do, I reckon it has happened at least once in my 30 years here.

 

There's a guy on here that claims his Thai neighbour reports him for absolutely everything as there's so much jealousy and hate from them.

 

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

 

As to the immigration being tolerant comment, they certainly used to be, when they were getting tea money for everything. With biometrics, rising nationalism coupled with xenophobia, and this military government, that is simply not the case any more.

[Kenny202]

34 minutes ago, Yadon Toploy said:

Knowing Thailand as well as I do, I reckon it has happened at least once in my 30 years here.

 

There's a guy on here that claims his Thai neighbour reports him for absolutely everything as there's so much jealousy and hate from them.

 

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

 

As to the immigration being tolerant comment, they certainly used to be, when they were getting tea money for everything. With biometrics, rising nationalism coupled with xenophobia, and this military government, that is simply not the case any more.

Have they really changed their attitude or is it our perception of things (and frustration at recent changes) that has changed? Has there been an increase in deportations and arrests? Most of us are probably feeling insecure due to all of the rubbish and scaremongering you read on here. No one ever has any real facts or instances. I always feel terrified when I go to Immigration for no good reason and have never had anything but good experiences, courtesy and efficiency from them. Always feel relieved after like.... going to the dentist. Never as bad as you thought.

 

I have been here for 6 years but only have experience with one IO which is generally known to be one of the nest here. I guess a lot would depend on the culture of your particular IO. Why would the tea money have decreased? Business as usual if not more so with more people paying the 20k rather that do not have the funds and can no longer obtain embassy letters.

 

We are not the only immigrants here and I am sure we would be the least of their worries as long as you keep your nose reasonably clean. I reckon if they really wanted to target western retirees or visitors you would know about it.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Kenny202

[FritsSikkink]

People have been living here for years on tourist visas

People have been working without a work permit and the proper visa

People have been bribing immigration through and agent to get a visa

People have been lying to their embassy about their income to get a visa.

 

These people blame everybody but themselves for their situation.

 

Immigration is slowly getting rid of these people, well done.

Edited January 12, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[LivinLOS]

On 1/11/2020 at 5:35 AM, Kenny202 said:

I agree. Total rubbish. As said before I find particularly immigration here extremely tolerant and reasonable. I actually think you would have to do something particularly extreme to have a problem. For eg the guy working with his wife cooking bbq chicken....he was wanted by interpol for particularly serious crimes. His arrest had nothing to do with BBQ chicken

Painting a house on Phuket.. Building a boat on Phuket.. 

 

Yes total shakedowns, but those abuses of power did happen. Personally I put that down to corruption not the intention of the law, but to deny that it happened is also false.. 

[LivinLOS]

 

12 hours ago, mokwit said:

The self styled "good" falangs don't get it. They think the The way they perceive themselves is the way the Thai's perceive them.

Its not about what boat we are in.. Its also not about 'good' or 'bad' its about having an accurate understanding of the law, not spreading bad information or lies, so people can make informed choices about which laws they wish to stick to and which they wish to break. 

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Have they really changed their attitude or is it our perception of things (and frustration at recent changes) that has changed?

Yes it has changed.. Even your statement acknowledges it has.. 

[dcnx]

On 1/11/2020 at 9:22 AM, bbabythai said:

No offense intended but your comment is stupid and fear mongering. Last year I asked immigration if I can paint and clean outside our building. He said it’s ok as long as I have I’m not getting paid. Last week I told them I’m doing renos at another building. He said no problem and to call him if any issues 

The fact that you even have to ask shows the seriousness of the situation and your fear.

 

 

 

 

[dcnx]

On 1/10/2020 at 12:13 PM, DrTuner said:

The perpetual "nomads" very likely do not have a work permit nor do they pay Thai income taxes.

What an easy problem that would be to solve. Create a visa that reflects 2020 and they can turn Thailand into a true hub for many digital businesses and collect taxes. Instead of everyone not paying taxes and eventually leaving due to difficult visas.

 

But these xenophobic dinosaurs can’t think beyond lunch so it’s not going to happen. Thailand is falling behind the rest of the world and will continue to do so for a reason. 

 

Thailand and all its ignorance deserves to fail. 

[Kenny202]

1 hour ago, dcnx said:

The fact that you even have to ask shows the seriousness of the situation and your fear.

 

 

 

 

He probably questioned them after all the <deleted> he read on here

[DrTuner]

51 minutes ago, dcnx said:

What an easy problem that would be to solve. Create a visa that reflects 2020 and they can turn Thailand into a true hub for many digital businesses and collect taxes. Instead of everyone not paying taxes and eventually leaving due to difficult visas.

There's another aspect that doesn't go down well with the usurpers. Those nomads would very likely start creating startups with western ideals, which would quickly blossom to all out tech hubs. Can't have such splinter cells destroying the Thai culture and giving them strange ideas about democracy now can we.

[Chivas]

On 1/10/2020 at 1:58 AM, LivinLOS said:

Its simple.. Thailand has a huge part of its economy driven by tourism.. Direct foreign exchange.. Secondly it is a excessively large exporter, car parts, fish products, agri products (chicken, shrimp etc) etc etc etc.. Again direct foreign exchange. This is happening at a far higher ratio in relation to domestic consumption than in other more resilient economies. 

That foreign exchange means Thailand is running a massive current account surplus, and is sitting on huge non THB currency reserves. This in turn is making Thailand seem a safe haven in the region to park funds. 

 

If they sell those reserves for THB, they drive the THB up.. Not down. 

 

If they operate more invisible solutions (forward currency swaps, etc etc) they risk being labelled a currency manipulator by the USA and having financial sanctions applied. 

 

All these are very simple direct cause and effect basic economics 101 that anyone with an ounce of sense and observational skill should be able to see an understand.. Not Soros lizard people making us all poor levels of stupidity perhaps, but still.. 

Top post fella.  I'm perpetually staggered by the amount of people who live in Thailand but have not the slightest knowledge of foreign exchange and how its calculated

[DrTuner]

25 minutes ago, Chivas said:

Top post fella.  I'm perpetually staggered by the amount of people who live in Thailand but have not the slightest knowledge of foreign exchange and how its calculated

Well it's determined by duking it out in the markets. Forex has nasty aspects to it, like dark liquidity pools. Hard to follow where it's all flowing to.

[Rhys]

Immigration offices are luck of the draw... 

[dcnx]

2 hours ago, Rhys said:

Immigration offices are luck of the draw... 

Exactly this. And what is OK today might not be OK tomorrow or next week or in the next city or even OK with another officer. 
 

When the rules are open to interpretation, anything is possible and everyone is fair game.

 

Somchai makes the rules as he sees fit when he sees fit. 

[SuwadeeS]

19 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

People have been living here for years on tourist visas

People have been working without a work permit and the proper visa

People have been bribing immigration through and agent to get a visa

People have been lying to their embassy about their income to get a visa.

 

These people blame everybody but themselves for their situation.

 

Immigration is slowly getting rid of these people, well done.

Some people really don't know reality. I just know about another case. A foreign teacher denied the Non-B visa, because. the IO said must first have the Work permit. Never heard of B..S... same this. The proper process is to get with all the documents to the OI, then get a Non-B, and with the Non - B visa apply for the Work permit. 

That proves, that many government offials do not understand and do their job properly. 

The only thing theyare really good in, is to blame always the foreigners.