2020: Crackdown on tourists working without work permits - 50K fines and deportation awaits

[CH1961]

1 hour ago, ThomasThBKK said:

They tried that many times, and in all cases judges ruled that no law was broken.

Any source for only one of 'many cases'? 

[KhunKenAP]

Do all the Russian girls in the bars on Walking Street have Work Permits? If so what is stated as their job? Talk about taking jobs from the Thai girls. lol

[ThomasThBKK]

4 minutes ago, CH1961 said:

Any source for only one of 'many cases'? 

Punspace, phuket yacht builder case, chinese in udon,... google yourself.

 

  

22 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Please show any case where a judge dismissed a presented case as you claim. 

 

Dont use the stockbroking chinese gang (wasnt in court or before a judge they were simply not charged) as they have already been very public about exempting stock trading as work and class it as investing. Other than that having followed the issue in detail since before telework and location independent online jobs were really possible I have never seen a case of a judge dismissing any charges as you claim, let alone 'many times'. Please cite your facts. 

In fact on the exact opposite there are many many cases where online workers have been charged, often in combination with other legal violations but clearly charged and found guilty of working without a work permit, when operating 100% online. My Mate Nate (got away with a grace period and quickly solved his work permit by incorporating a Thai company simply for youtube) the online porn and gambling dens, online teachers, even the solo online case with a single guy working at home, teaching non Thais on the internet. All charged and deported for 'working without a work permit' how do you claim it is not a law, when these cases are there to be seen as precedent. 

Of course that was in front of the court, a judge dismissed that bs instantly. They weren't stock trading for themselves, that's totally different. They were even hired and got a salary in thailand to trade stocks for someone else. Still nothing happened, except hotel got fined for not doing tm30, guess they got lucky.

 

 

My mate nate clearly earned his money in thailand, from thai people, using thailand to do so and should have been threated harder - totally irrelevant, they should have deported him. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

How it that helping Thai people be successful ?? 

 

Surely your not suggesting it is Thai lawmakers job to make non Thais successful ?? 

lololol. 

 

Guess how many people are successfull in the US thanks to google, microsoft and co which are all let by indians currently.

They employ a <deleted>ton of people and invest in a <deleted>ton of infrastructure, job creation and startups. 

 

Do you think it's attractive for a big VC to invest into thailands startup scene, hahahahahaha.

 

narrowminded <deleted>.

 

 

Also what you do here is clearly work, and could be done by a thai poster, so please <deleted> off if you don't have a work permit.

 

Would be good for thailand to set an example, if elon musk comes again to thailand and answers a business call, they should arrest, deport and torture him to make it all clear.

[ThomasThBKK]

17 hours ago, CH1961 said:

Naive boy, with all the encrypted traffic to/from your IP you will be the first target. 

Most traffic is encrypted, and dns requests are mostly resolved by googles, cloudflares etc dns servers these days.

 

If you don't know how the internet works, you shouldn't bark too loud.

[rott]

48 minutes ago, LazySlipper said:

More than you think, especially in the teaching industry. Backpackers are what has been keeping the salaries low for people like me who are licenced and certified teachers here in Thailand. I never reported anyone but I sure as hell don't like them working illegally and keeping the salaries stagnant at 30 000 bht a month as the have been for the last 20 years.

And do you really think that Thailand would pay the equivalent salary of a NES licensed and certified teacher from the West.? And if they did would there be enough NES licensed and certified teachers available to fill every post.?

[rott]

48 minutes ago, LazySlipper said:

More than you think, especially in the teaching industry. Backpackers are what has been keeping the salaries low for people like me who are licenced and certified teachers here in Thailand. I never reported anyone but I sure as hell don't like them working illegally and keeping the salaries stagnant at 30 000 bht a month as the have been for the last 20 years.

And do you really think that Thailand would pay the equivalent salary of a NES licensed and certified teacher from the West.? And if they did would there be enough NES licensed and certified teachers available to fill every post.?

[LivinLOS]

1 minute ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Punspace, phuket yacht builder case, chinese in udon,... google yourself.

Punspace no one was charged before a judge.. 

 

Phuket yacht builder dont see any relevance to working online.. Explain your point ?? 

 

Chinese in udon were not charged as related to stocks (I agree they were not personal investors but again.. NOT BEFORE A JUDGE). 

You made a claim, I say thats false, so please cite facts to back up your claim.. Telling me to google your claims when I say they dont exist is the kind of weak logic your applying to the debate. 

Having followed this in detail for decades, I know of no case where a judge threw out any charges, and can cite and list many where they were charged, found guilty, and deported. 

[ThomasThBKK]

25 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Punspace no one was charged before a judge.. 

 

Phuket yacht builder dont see any relevance to working online.. Explain your point ?? 

 

Chinese in udon were not charged as related to stocks (I agree they were not personal investors but again.. NOT BEFORE A JUDGE). 

You made a claim, I say thats false, so please cite facts to back up your claim.. Telling me to google your claims when I say they dont exist is the kind of weak logic your applying to the debate. 

Having followed this in detail for decades, I know of no case where a judge threw out any charges, and can cite and list many where they were charged, found guilty, and deported. 

I didn't quote you, learn to read.

 

 

 

 

Ok it might have not been a judge who decided they CANT DO ANYTHING AND THEY DID NOTHING WRONG, it might have been the general attorney.

News sources here are so bad it's impossible to know what really happened.

WHO CARES?

 

Thai law enforcement saw no chance to nail them because: 

 

Quote

The tourists were in Thailand legally and despite it being known that each was paid for their online work there was nothing the Thais could do to arrest them or have them deported.

 

This is the only thing that counts, for me, and most others here.

 

You can go on nitpicking about judges, cops or general attorneys, in the end nothing could be done against those guys and they clearly even got paid in Thailand - which personally in my opinion is way over the line of digital nomad work. These guys should have been rightly so prosecuted imo.

 

There's a line we have to draw somewhere, as thailands definition of work is ALL INCLUDING and can be applied to everything if we just take it out of context - and if those guys didn't cross the line, then i don't know how a normal guy managing an offshore company from here can be over that line if he does nothing affecting the thai economy.

 

But this DOES NOT mean that those guys shouldn't pay taxes here, they work from thailand over half of the year = pay taxes here imo. But in the end it's all thailands fault for not giving those guys a chance to pay here, so thais and certain posters should stop the cry me a river bs.

 

 

Would it be too damn hard to introduce a freelancer,startup etc visa like germany and other real countries have? https://www.germany-visa.org/freelance-visa/

 

Noooo.. would be too easy, as always thailand is it's own biggest enemy.

Edited January 7, 2020 by ThomasThBKK

[LivinLOS]

16 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

I didn't quote you, learn to read.

 

 

 

 

Ok it might have not been a judge who decided they CANT DO ANYTHING AND THEY DID NOTHING WRONG, it might have been the general attorney.

News sources here are so bad it's impossible to know what really happened.

WHO CARES?

 

Thai law enforcement saw no chance to nail them because: 

 

 

This is the only thing that counts, for me, and most others here.

 

You can go on nitpicking about judges, cops or general attorneys, in the end nothing could be done against those guys and they clearly even got paid in Thailand - which personally in my opinion is way over the line of digital nomad work. These guys should have been rightly so prosecuted imo.

 

 

You must be missing this that I outlined right off the bat.. The irony of starting with a 'learn to read'.. 

Quote

 

Please show any case where a judge dismissed a presented case as you claim. 

 

Dont use the stockbroking chinese gang (wasnt in court or before a judge they were simply not charged) as they have already been very public about exempting stock trading as work and class it as investing. Other than that having followed the issue in detail since before telework and location independent online jobs were really possible I have never seen a case of a judge dismissing any charges as you claim, let alone 'many times'. Please cite your facts. 

 

So the stockbroking case, which never went before a judge, is clearly covered.. Case closed.. It not work in Thai eyes as stock trading and ownership isnt work.. We can argue semantics (I actually agree it is work as they are not doing it for themselves) but the reasons are clear and I said DONT USE that case. it doesnt meet your claims and has a clear reason why it never went to a judge. 

So you still have not shown a single case of 

 

Quote

They tried that many times, and in all cases judges ruled that no law was broken.

 

Where are these 'many times' it went before a judge and they ruled no law was broken ?? Even a single time.. 

Either cite 'many cases' or admit thats simply a lie.. 

We can list online language teachers, online language schools, online gambling groups, online porn filmers, online whatsup signers.. All of whom were arrested, charged and deported or jailed, with one of the charges being 'working without a work permit'. 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by LivinLOS

[Peterw42]

48 minutes ago, KhunKenAP said:

Do all the Russian girls in the bars on Walking Street have Work Permits? If so what is stated as their job? Talk about taking jobs from the Thai girls. lol

Usually they have a WP as an entertainer/dancer etc

[ThomasThBKK]

5 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

We can list online language teachers, online language schools, online gambling groups, online porn filmers, online whatsup signers.. All of whom were arrested, charged and deported or jailed, with one of the charges being 'working without a work permit'. 

 

Nothing of that has anything to with being a self employed or company owning remote worker, whats your point? all of that is clearly illegal especially gambling and porn on thailands ground.

Most of this is fraud, gambling is clearly illegal here, porn too and should land them in jail and not deported.

 

 

7 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Where are these 'many times' it went before a judge and they ruled no law was broken ?? Even a single time.. 

Either cite 'many cases' or admit thats simply a lie.. 

I already told you it might not be a judge but the general attorney, so it doesnt even make it in front of a judge, so what? Clearly shows there was never a case if they don't even try it... Go nitpick somewhere else.

 

Quote

You must be missing this that I outlined right off the bat.. The irony of starting with a 'learn to read'.. 

Lol we just can't use it because it doesn't fit your narrow minded narrative, right? 

 

 

Show us the law that says stock trading is not a profession, you just fit your own narrative because you prolly trade stocks. Same as others here earn money as an offshore landlord, for them it's ok to do and to deal with clients and not work but if someone codes and has call with his client its magically is totally different and not allowed anymore.

 

NOT IN MY BACKYARD RIGHT?

 

For me you are all just full of it hypocrites, worse than thai authorities.

 

 

 

[LivinLOS]

Sigh... Once more for the hard of comprension.. 
 

Quote

 

Nothing of that has anything to with being a self employed or company owning remote worker, whats your point? all of that is clearly illegal especially gambling and porn on thailands ground.

Most of this is fraud, gambling is clearly illegal here, porn too and should land them in jail and not deported.

 

The common denominator is in each of these cases, of someone working 100% online and without Thai customers or clients, where that someone has been taken in front of a judge, charged and found guilty of the crime of 'working without a work permit'.. See the point now ?? See how thats the direct opposite of your point ?? You understand thats how claims and counter claims are presented and backed up with actual cases and facts ??

Catching up with that 'reading' issue you said earlier ?? 

Quote

I already told you it might not be a judge but the general attorney, so it doesnt even make it in front of a judge, so what? Clearly shows there was never a case if they don't even try it... Go nitpick somewhere else.

So that means your claim, that I called you out on, is as I said false ?? We agree you were wrong on that claim ??  In case your lost again your claim was.. 

Quote

They tried that many times, and in all cases judges ruled that no law was broken.

So.. To recap, that is a false statement, and in no case you can provide has it ever gone before a judge and ruled no law was broken, in fact as above the exact opposite has happened multiple times, cases HAVE gone to judges, and judges have ruled that it was against the law. The precise opposite of your claim. 

 

 

And finally, to deal with the loose ends. 

Quote

Lol we just can't use it because it doesn't fit your narrow minded narrative, right? 

No, it is not because it doesnt fit my narrative, because it doesnt meet your claim.. Are you lost again ?? Do I need to requote it ?? 

Lets try again. Was the chinese gang brought before a judge and the judge said no law was broken ?? No.. They were not.. So how is it in any way relevant to making your point ?? 

 

Secondly, in this instance, stock trading is well established as not considered work. I personally disagree that a group doing this with other peoples assets should meet that 'not work' or 'merely investing' yardstick (eg I agree with you !!) however thats that Thai interpretation, and thats why they were not charged and sent before a judge. See this response from the chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-play-the-stock-market

Quote

Stock investment is not lawfully defined as work. As long as you are not working, you do not need to apply for a work permit.

For example. If you are a shareholder or an executive of a company, but you do not sign documents related to the daily functions of that company, you do not need a work permit.

So it is to be discounted because 1) theres a reason it never went in front of a judge and 2) it fails to meet your claim, which is that a judge has ruled.. etc. Your not proving that point with it are you ?? Still with me ?? 

I can see logic isnt your strong suit.. But please do try.. If you have anything at all to back up your claim (see above if your lost again for the precise claim) post it.. if you cant provide any single source at all for the 'many times' judges have as you say done this? then your statement is false. 

[shdmn]

Just how far do you want to take this online worker argument?  Many tourists who come to Thailand probably check their company email once in awhile and perhaps reply to some of it.  Maybe make a phone call or two.  That could easily be considered online work.  Where do you draw the line? What are they going to do?  Start deporting tourists for checking email?

Edited January 7, 2020 by shdmn

[overherebc]

On 1/6/2020 at 9:31 AM, SoilSpoil said:

It the modus operandi of most schools here in Thailand. When coming from abroad, you get a tourist visa first, start working as a teacher and after probation the school will apply for work permit.

 

Wonder how Thailand will find the 'needed' foreign teachers with this new crackdown.

You only start working on your tourist visa if you're dumb enough to believe the schools BS about 'don't need or can't get a WP while on probation' and in many cases you aren't actually qualified to work as a teacher, eg, a backpacker looking for an easy way to spend a few months more in Thailand.

[DrTuner]

18 hours ago, rexall said:

I defended you in the previous post. But this "OK, boomer" isn't clever or funny, young man!

Ah don't worry, it's just millenial language for 'I got nothing so I'll parrot this out'.

[LivinLOS]

14 minutes ago, shdmn said:

Just how far do you want to take this online worker argument?  Many tourists who come to Thailand probably check their company email once in awhile and perhaps reply to some of it.  Maybe make a phone call or two.  That could easily be considered online work.  Where do you draw the line? What are they going to do?  Start deporting tourists for checking email?

Of course they fall foul of the letter of the law.. You can get a 15 day work permit exemption for this kind of thing (no one would bother) but it does show that its covered in law and isnt something thats high on the priority, or easy or possible to catch. Thailand is also a poor country, highly dependant on tourism so is probably rightfully scared of negative publicity, something digital resident tax evaders exploit causing legitimate folks ever increasing scrutiny and problems. 

The issue isnt really the 10 day package tourist with a work call.. Its the ones applying for visas and signing declarations for work prohibited visit classes, knowing they are lying on the application.. Its the ones who live here year in year out and never pay tax.. Its the ones who know the rules, but make a conscious choice to break those laws, not engage in knowledge transfer, not take on Thai staff, and cheat the process because 'i cant be bothered' while lamenting 'if only there was a way' (plot twist.. there is.. multiple ways).. Its these guys who now are facing ever decreasing visa options and who have caused huge headaches for genuine students, genuine short stay visitors, genuine frequent visitors.. Thailand knows what is happening but in fear of thier tourist market, they have to work around the edges, all the airport interrogations, all the denial of entries, all the closing of ED options etc etc all points to this. 

[overherebc]

On 1/6/2020 at 9:58 AM, holy cow cm said:

Oh My - Another crack down? How many evil begpackers will they get this time? And don't play your guitar out in public or on the beach and have people listen. Oh NO-don't do that!

Having heard a few of them I'd agree.

[BangkokBaksida]

On 1/6/2020 at 3:17 PM, jimn said:

If they want to catch people just arrest all those Russian hello girls outside the Russian bars and gogo's on Walking Street. And the Russian dancers inside. I doubt if they have even got visa's let alone a work permit. It makes a mockery of the whole thing. No one touches them though, I wonder why?

I suspect that these Russian dancers get away with working illegally precisely because someone DOES touch them.

[overherebc]

28 minutes ago, BangkokBaksida said:

I suspect that these Russian dancers get away with working illegally precisely because someone DOES touch them.

Bargepoles must be cheap in Pattaya.

[balo]

7 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

We can list online language teachers, online language schools, online gambling groups, online porn filmers, online whatsup signers.. All of whom were arrested, charged and deported or jailed, with one of the charges being 'working without a work permit'. 

You are still here LivinLOS? 

So can you find one case where someone sending work e-mails from coffee shops been arrested?  No you can't.  Or from internet working spaces in Thailand.  Not one case and we are more than 100 000 doing it.  Our salaries got nothing to do with Thailand.
Remote freelancers will come and go and Thailand do not care. 
I know it irritates you and always will , but nothing will happen to us. 

  

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, balo said:

You are still here LivinLOS? 

So can you find one case where someone sending work e-mails from coffee shops been arrested?  No you can't.  Or from internet working spaces in Thailand.  Not one case and we are more than 100 000 doing it.  Our salaries got nothing to do with Thailand.
Remote freelancers will come and go and Thailand do not care. 
I know it irritates you and always will , but nothing will happen to us. 

  

True. Until they decide to bring in a new law.

[DrTuner]

38 minutes ago, overherebc said:

True. Until they decide to bring in a new law.

Laws won't help because there's no enforcement. They way they'll do it is with immigration, simply make it nigh impossible to stay longer than 2 weeks. Sorted.

[overherebc]

3 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Laws won't help because there's no enforcement. They way they'll do it is with immigration, simply make it nigh impossible to stay longer than 2 weeks. Sorted.

Rubbish. 4 weeks. ????????????

With requirement to spend 15,000 baht a day, unless you're chinese.

Edited January 7, 2020 by overherebc

[Isaanbiker]

On 1/6/2020 at 4:36 PM, LivinLOS said:

Thats what he thought too 

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c?fbclid=IwAR3rDUqWff07cC1I3gUS4qsLnHQCdGahXmiNYTGN-QycVGvCFMdsE3lxyUo

Have you even read it all?

 

" The Australian teacher had been living in Thailand for three years, two of those on a tourist visa."

 

   That alone says it all. 

 

     

 

[Mitkof Island]

On 1/5/2020 at 6:16 PM, mariohh1 said:

maybe out in the sticks but here on koh phangan are at least 100

 

 

Many of the Full Moon Party idiots and the NEW Hippy Dippy Fake Wannabes tend to be the types believing they can work to make a few bucks or free meals. Would not break my heart to see this bunch gone from Thailand.

[humbug]

The whole thing is a large distraction from the real problems of 2020, terrible economy, job losses and very few positives for employment, Brazilian models taking thai models jobs seems to be in the news every year, there will be a few unlucky people being arrested with a media show, just to keep this shakedown going through the year, while most people will be struggling, just more racist nonsense from this illegal gang

[Cuba]

On 1/6/2020 at 4:05 PM, PETERTHEEATER said:

George who?????????

He fought Muhamad Ali in The rumble in the jungle.

[impulse]

13 hours ago, KhunKenAP said:

Do all the Russian girls in the bars on Walking Street have Work Permits? If so what is stated as their job? Talk about taking jobs from the Thai girls. lol

 

Years ago, when I first came to Thailand, a well connected friend told me they come in on a weekly flight, stay a maximum of 4 weeks to eliminate visa issues and rotate 1/4 of them out every week.  Earlier if they cause any problems.  He also told me all bets are off when it comes to some of the protected establishments, owned at least in part by the very guys who would enforce any WP rules.  That was pre-2014, when living in LOS long term was a lot simpler.  Obviously, I can't confirm.  But I had no reason to doubt it.

 

[tingtong]

On 1/6/2020 at 8:55 AM, steven100 said:

I'm amazed that this would be a big deal, as i wouldn't suspect too many foreigners on tourist visa's working in Thailand .....  maybe a few but certainly not a hundred or even 30 .....   ? 

not a 100...?

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/over-1800-illegal-foreign-workers-arrested-in-thailand

make another guess!!

this is just what they caught then...the real number must be 100x

[Roy Baht]

2 hours ago, tingtong said:

not a 100...?

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/over-1800-illegal-foreign-workers-arrested-in-thailand

make another guess!!

this is just what they caught then...the real number must be 100x

Not clear from this article how many of the 1800 were here on tourist visas, simply that they were illegal foreign workers. Many could have slipped across the border from neighboring countries (as they do).  In any case, It's difficult to see why a country with 1.1% unemployment--practically full employment--is so concerned about illegal workers.  Foreign workers are clearly not taking jobs that Thais want.  And "working at massage parlours, hairdressing, carpentry, and working as motorbike taxi drivers or security guards": do you honestly think those are jobs Western tourists want?  A larger and more competitive labour force would probably do more good than harm to the Thai economy. In short, there seems to little motivating this crackdown outside of knee-jerk xenophobia.