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UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer


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2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Once the election was called, the defeat of Corbynism took precedence over Brexit, particularly as Boris took Hard Brexit off the table prior to the election and couple that with the Labour Party confusion over what policy they actually stood for.

The Labour Party has 2 straightforward choices: either it settles accounts with Corbynism or it backs off and tries to pin the tail totally on the Brexit donkey. Starmer (BTW, my constituency MP, Holborn and St. Pancras) is trying to take the second route it appears. More fool him.

It would be impossible to settle accounts with the Corbynistas until after he’s locked in the leadership - there are still too many of the rank and file which are Corbyn luuvies who need to hope that the flame burns on.

 

Once/if he gets the leadership, then Starmer should have his own night of the long knives to put the basket weavers out of the misery. 

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40 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The EU has around 40 trade deals covering about 70 countries.

 

The UK has already signed 20 continuity deals covering 40 countries. And we haven't even left yet. After January 31 we can start talking to countries that the EU doesn't have trade deals with (you know, minnows like the USA and China).

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47213842

 

Tell us all about that EU/China trade deal ????

Going off topic 

Fres trade deals are not always the panacea projected.

In some cases they increase beaurocracy and costs as businesses have to fill out additional paperwork in order to comply with specific requirements of the FTA. ( rules of origin as an example ).

A company facing these additional costs may decide to export via WTO as opposed to the FTA

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1 hour ago, vogie said:

Why do you fail to mention Wales, is it because they too voted to leave the EU and it justs makes it easier for the SNP to have a go at the English. We voted as the United Kingdom and not 4 seperate countries. The SNP wanted to leave the UK long before the EU referendum, so in that respect the EU referendum made little or no difference to how the SNP thought, it just gave them another excuse to start blethering about freeing themselves from the wicked English.

I haven't done the maths but I am not sure that the Welsh vote would have made a difference either way. As always, however, I am happy to be corrected. But of course, the Welsh are often overlooked and I was guilty of that. 

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1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

The EU has around 40 trade deals covering about 70 countries.

 

The UK has already signed 20 continuity deals covering 40 countries. And we haven't even left yet. After January 31 we can start talking to countries that the EU doesn't have trade deals with (you know, minnows like the USA and China).

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47213842

 

Tell us all about that EU/China trade deal ????

 

Thanks v much for this link to the BBC report on trade deals.  Most helpful, and makes it clear as to why Boris is so confident all sorts of deals will be made between Jan 31 and Dec 31.

Also, the link demonstrates that the deals already accomplished are with countries in Africa and S America, whose economies are likely to expand significantly over the coming decades.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

1. You had a referendum in 2014. same result (55/45). Given the complications now that we will have left the EU I would expect an even bigger swing to remain.

Just because something might be difficult, it doesn't mean that it should be shelved if the net result is beneficial. Hopefully negotiations won't be burdened by the clueless buffoons who were 'representing' the UK's interests in the Brexit negotiations. 

 

14 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

2. May I refer you to the UK's exit from the EU. 

And I refer you to my response previously. You still have failed to explain why there would be a fiscal transfer. Are you referring to an allocation of existing UK debt? Of course, that goes without saying but surely you understand how government debt works?

 

20 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

3. Because you'd be 1 of 27 instead of 1 of 4. In the UK you have a say in who leads via the ballot box. Good luck on voting for Von Der Leyen's replacement, that will be done in Brussels behind closed doors in a French/German stitch up. You'll be a minnow (in the bottom 5 in terms of GDP) of 27 countries. Not exactly a position of power. You'll be pretty much irrelevant. 

Could it be that we are too comfortable in the UK with FPTP that the notion of coalition government is seen as a sign of failure rather than an improvement over our own very undemocratic process? 

 

Can you explain how you think we would be 5th from the bottom in terms of GDP? I am intrigued by that claim. According to this, Scotland's GDP per capita is $43,740 in in 2018. By comparison, the UK's GDP per capita for the same period is $42,580. As I have been saying for years, the UK is a net drain on Scotland.

 

45 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

4. I believe it could be frictionless but the EU clearly disagrees. Otherwise we wouldn't need the border down the Irish Sea. So there would need to be a border.

Let's hope you are right, but the Scottish border will be much less complicated. There are far fewer crossing points, for example, and no history of tension across it. 

 

47 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You didn't mention Scotland meeting the criteria for joining the EU. You might want to check the notional deficit in Scotland? Adopting the Euro should be fun as well. Good luck with all that, you better hope the UK/EU trade talks go well.

Notional deficit AS PART OF THE UK.  That last part is important. The whole point of independence is to pursue a better path, one that works for the Scottish people and is tailored to the country's specific needs.

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5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Yawn. Are you still trying to sell that 51st state nonsense? Remainers are increasingly desperate for something to go wrong for the UK, so sad.

Obviously you are of the opinion that the UK did not become a target as a result of Blair getting into bed with George Bush.

I doubt the victims relatives would agree with you. Time to grow up and face the real world.

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29 minutes ago, jayboy said:

How would an independent Scotland deal with the currency issue?

 

There seem to be some huge problems whether joining the Euro (EC rules on deficit financing), remaining in Sterling (England would determine fiscal policy) or starting a new currency (international creditworthiness).

 

 

Currency is not the big issue that unionists like to claim it is.

Almost everyone in Scotland realises that initially would would carry on using the pound. With or without a currency union.

After that it will be up to the people of Scotland whether they want that to continue, launch our own currency or adopt the Euro as we see fit.

Every other country which has left the Empire faced the same issue and every other country got through it no problem.

Unless you know of some unique reason why Scotland could not do the same? 

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43 minutes ago, jayboy said:

How would an independent Scotland deal with the currency issue?

 

There seem to be some huge problems whether joining the Euro (EC rules on deficit financing), remaining in Sterling (England would determine fiscal policy) or starting a new currency (international creditworthiness).

 

It is not a problem, a country does not have to be in the EU or Eurozone to use the Euro. It can be done by a monetary agreement with the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/euro/use-euro/euro-outside-euro-area_en

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10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Every other country which has left the Empire faced the same issue and every other country got through it no problem.

Unless you know of some unique reason why Scotland could not do the same? 

Exactly. A total of 63 countries have claimed independence from the UK.

It would appear that some cannot stand the thought of having no one left to dominate.

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8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You and some of the other Remainers are like those US soldiers they found 30 years after the Vietnam war had ended, still hiding out in the jungle looking for "gooks".

 

It's over Bro, dry those eyes and sack up ????

Time will tell. I'm still optimistic that the young generation (not you!) will use their brain to realise that a small island needs support (as you see with ROI) to compete with economic blocs. 

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27 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Yeah we got it. You won. Now get over it.

 

Scotland did not make any commitments to existing UK projects. Westminster did that and allocated it to Scotland because they can. Think you will wait a long time to see any money from Scotland to build infrastructure in London and nuclear power stations.

 

Oh yeah population size. Thats the criteria for joining the EU. Thats why countries like Malta, Luxembourg and the like all got told to forget it.

 

The border between, for example, the United States and Canada is even bigger but seems to work fine. The border between the EU and the rest of the world is even bigger but seems to work fine. Indeed the border between the UK and the rest of the world will be bigger. Do you foresee any issues arising from that?

 

Are you proposing to kick out the Scots who live in England after independence? I need to say there is no feeling north of the border that English born residents should be ethnically cleansed south after independence. 

I didn't say population size will stop you joining. Debt will probably do that. Population size and GDP will just make you a minor, insignificant member and therefore you have little say and certainly not the independence you claim to crave.

 

Re. the border, it's the EU that will insist on this not the UK. You know how precious they are about the single market and customs union. I never said it will be impossible, but it will have to be built and manned as other borders of the EU are. So you'll have a border on one side and the sea on all the others. Nice and isolated. And you call Brexiteers "little Englanders"? Ah the irony.

 

Ethnic cleansing? Don't be childish. The same rules will apply for Scots as other EU members. In the future you'll have to qualify to work in the UK via an Australian based points system. Sorry, that's the price for leaving. You'll be free to work in Poland and Hungary though, so it's not all bad news as long as the Scots are prepared to learn new languages and live in countries with little shared history and culture.

 

You won't be independent though. Seems a lot of hassle just to swap Westminster for Brussels but if that's what you think the Scots want then let's re-run 2014 and watch Groundhog day unfold with another Remain vote. 

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36 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I didn't say population size will stop you joining. Debt will probably do that. Population size and GDP will just make you a minor, insignificant member and therefore you have little say and certainly not the independence you claim to crave.

 

Do you know how much debt the UK currently carries? At the moment it is over £2 trillion and growing at £5k per second. I don't think that we need any lessons in fiscal management from Westminster. But do you really think that the Scottish share would be like a cash transfer from Edinburgh to London? Would international debt management practices not be applied to an independent Scotland?

 

46 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Re. the border, it's the EU that will insist on this not the UK. You know how precious they are about the single market and customs union. I never said it will be impossible, but it will have to be built and manned as other borders of the EU are. So you'll have a border on one side and the sea on all the others. Nice and isolated. And you call Brexiteers "little Englanders"? Ah the irony.

How do they currently manage their borders? Can you give an example of what they will insist upon?

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42 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Small island? Maybe in geographical area but not in economic clout. The 6th largest economy in the world. 

 

You're comparing the UK to ROI which has less than 10% of the population and GDP? ????

Well, as you could see you live in the past with your rank 6.

A year after full Brexit feel free to contact me again. 

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