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5 minutes ago, RickBradford said:

That reads like a lame activist effort to conflate 'fossil fuels' with 'corruption' and help paint fossil fuels into the 'evil' category. Playground stuff.

 

The common link, of course, is poverty. Poverty invites corruption and corruption perpetuates poverty, a cycle which has been a concern to international bodies for decades.

 

Similarly, poor countries desperately need reliable cheap energy, and that means fossil fuels. Only the wealthy West can ask its citizens to pay twice or three times the necessary price of electricity by foisting wind and solar power on them.

Hey. Wake up. The year is 2020. Not 2010.

India Coal Power Is About To Crash: 65% Of Existing Coal Costs More Than New Wind And Solar

King Coal’s reign in India is about to come crashing down . Coal supplied 80% of India’s total power mix in 2016-2017, but economics have flipped the country’s energy equation – new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/01/30/india-coal-power-is-about-to-crash-65-of-existing-coal-costs-more-than-new-wind-and-solar/#5afcb5d94c0f

And this article is 2 years old. Solar and wind energy costs have continued to plummet since then. As does the cost of storage. And let me repeat in boldface part of what that article reports just to make sure you get it: new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants.

 

India’s stranded assets: how government interventions are propping up coal power

The five major (current and future) drivers of asset stranding in India’s coal power value chain are: the cost competitiveness of renewable energy alternatives; financial distress in distribution companies; air pollution regulation; water scarcity; and coal shortages.

• A number of these drivers are already significantly impacting India’s power sector: 40 gigawatts of commissioned and under construction coal-fired power capacity are already ‘stressed’, which presents an ongoing systemic financial risk for the government and the financial system dominated by the Indian public sector.

• The Government of India is intervening in coal power (across the value chain from coal mining to power production and distribution) in several ways, which include support in the form of an estimated ₹74,114 crore ($11.3 billion) in public finance, ₹13,960 crore ($2.1 billion) in national subsidies, and support equivalent to ₹24,724 crore ($3.8 billion) through policy postponement

https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/12407.pdf

 

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On 1/9/2020 at 9:00 AM, bristolboy said:

Hey. Wake up. The year is 2020. Not 2010.

India Coal Power Is About To Crash: 65% Of Existing Coal Costs More Than New Wind And Solar

King Coal’s reign in India is about to come crashing down . Coal supplied 80% of India’s total power mix in 2016-2017, but economics have flipped the country’s energy equation – new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/01/30/india-coal-power-is-about-to-crash-65-of-existing-coal-costs-more-than-new-wind-and-solar/#5afcb5d94c0f

And this article is 2 years old. Solar and wind energy costs have continued to plummet since then. As does the cost of storage. And let me repeat in boldface part of what that article reports just to make sure you get it: new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants.

 

India’s stranded assets: how government interventions are propping up coal power

The five major (current and future) drivers of asset stranding in India’s coal power value chain are: the cost competitiveness of renewable energy alternatives; financial distress in distribution companies; air pollution regulation; water scarcity; and coal shortages.

• A number of these drivers are already significantly impacting India’s power sector: 40 gigawatts of commissioned and under construction coal-fired power capacity are already ‘stressed’, which presents an ongoing systemic financial risk for the government and the financial system dominated by the Indian public sector.

• The Government of India is intervening in coal power (across the value chain from coal mining to power production and distribution) in several ways, which include support in the form of an estimated ₹74,114 crore ($11.3 billion) in public finance, ₹13,960 crore ($2.1 billion) in national subsidies, and support equivalent to ₹24,724 crore ($3.8 billion) through policy postponement

https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/12407.pdf

 

catch is you need them both if you want to mix in windmills,

so twice the cost vs running on coal alone.

energy is all about reliability, we cant make it a single day during winter

without heating

german wind power.jpg

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1 hour ago, brokenbone said:

catch is you need them both if you want to mix in windmills,

so twice the cost vs running on coal alone.

energy is all about reliability, we cant make it a single day during winter

without heating

german wind power.jpg

Once again, no links. And numbers from 2008? Wake up! The year is 2020.

Now, as I understand it, Denmark is not exactly a nation with a tropical climate.

Denmark Passes Magic 50% In Renewable Electricity Generation Milestone

The national media outlet dr.dk reports that, for the first time ever, half of Denmark’s electricity consumption originated from renewable generation. Those are the data for 2019 totals supplied by energinet.dk. Wind dominated, with 47% of the green energy coming from wind turbines.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/05/denmark-passes-magic-50-in-renewable-electricity-generation-milestone/

Subsidy-Free Onshore Wind Gains Traction in Europe

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/subsidy-free-onshore-wind-gathers-pace-in-europe

Shutdown of coal-fired plants in US saves lives and improves crop yields

https://phys.org/news/2020-01-shutdown-coal-fired-crop-yields.html

Solar Costs & Wind Costs So Low They’re Cheaper Than *Existing* Coal & Nuclear — Lazard LCOE Report

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/22/solar-costs-wind-costs-now-so-low-theyre-competitive-with-existing-coal-nuclear-lazard-lcoe-report/

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1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Once again, no links. And numbers from 2008? Wake up! The year is 2020.

Now, as I understand it, Denmark is not exactly a nation with a tropical climate.

Denmark Passes Magic 50% In Renewable Electricity Generation Milestone

The national media outlet dr.dk reports that, for the first time ever, half of Denmark’s electricity consumption originated from renewable generation. Those are the data for 2019 totals supplied by energinet.dk. Wind dominated, with 47% of the green energy coming from wind turbines.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/05/denmark-passes-magic-50-in-renewable-electricity-generation-milestone/

Subsidy-Free Onshore Wind Gains Traction in Europe

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/subsidy-free-onshore-wind-gathers-pace-in-europe

Shutdown of coal-fired plants in US saves lives and improves crop yields

https://phys.org/news/2020-01-shutdown-coal-fired-crop-yields.html

Solar Costs & Wind Costs So Low They’re Cheaper Than *Existing* Coal & Nuclear — Lazard LCOE Report

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/22/solar-costs-wind-costs-now-so-low-theyre-competitive-with-existing-coal-nuclear-lazard-lcoe-report/

coincidentally? denmark & germany has the most expensive electric,

denmark may be able to swap power with sweden that has dependable nuke reactors

& water power, but germany consume so much they need to provide

the bulk on their own, which of course means they have to double up

with either coal or russian gas for when nature takes its course

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On 1/9/2020 at 3:00 PM, bristolboy said:

Hey. Wake up. The year is 2020. Not 2010.

India Coal Power Is About To Crash: 65% Of Existing Coal Costs More Than New Wind And Solar

King Coal’s reign in India is about to come crashing down . Coal supplied 80% of India’s total power mix in 2016-2017, but economics have flipped the country’s energy equation – new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/01/30/india-coal-power-is-about-to-crash-65-of-existing-coal-costs-more-than-new-wind-and-solar/#5afcb5d94c0f

And this article is 2 years old. Solar and wind energy costs have continued to plummet since then. As does the cost of storage. And let me repeat in boldface part of what that article reports just to make sure you get it: new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants.

 

India’s stranded assets: how government interventions are propping up coal power

The five major (current and future) drivers of asset stranding in India’s coal power value chain are: the cost competitiveness of renewable energy alternatives; financial distress in distribution companies; air pollution regulation; water scarcity; and coal shortages.

• A number of these drivers are already significantly impacting India’s power sector: 40 gigawatts of commissioned and under construction coal-fired power capacity are already ‘stressed’, which presents an ongoing systemic financial risk for the government and the financial system dominated by the Indian public sector.

• The Government of India is intervening in coal power (across the value chain from coal mining to power production and distribution) in several ways, which include support in the form of an estimated ₹74,114 crore ($11.3 billion) in public finance, ₹13,960 crore ($2.1 billion) in national subsidies, and support equivalent to ₹24,724 crore ($3.8 billion) through policy postponement

https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/12407.pdf

 

Soooo, that's a good thing. I don't think anyone is saying that pollution is a good thing and if India can generate enough power without using polluting methods that can only be good. However, Indian's problems are caused by too many people and ergo too many vehicles running on polluting fuel. I don't know how many oil powered vehicles there are in India but it must be many millions. IMO there is zero chance of enough of them being replaced by electric powered vehicles to make a difference, and even if there was, how would all the extra electricity be generated?

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1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Soooo, that's a good thing. I don't think anyone is saying that pollution is a good thing and if India can generate enough power without using polluting methods that can only be good. However, Indian's problems are caused by too many people and ergo too many vehicles running on polluting fuel. I don't know how many oil powered vehicles there are in India but it must be many millions. IMO there is zero chance of enough of them being replaced by electric powered vehicles to make a difference, and even if there was, how would all the extra electricity be generated?

Tell me something, how informed is your opinion? Have you done even the most cursory research on the question? 

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3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Tell me something, how informed is your opinion? Have you done even the most cursory research on the question? 

Are you saying that I'm wrong that less pollution is a good thing, or are you saying that India can convert all the millions of oil powered vehicles to electric, or are you saying there is enough alternative electricity to power all the electric vehicles?

It would help if you were more specific in your question.

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@bristolboy : this video is produced by an engineer that is pro renewables,

because he is an engineer, he understands and explains the issue involved,

in a way that you can appreciate .

also beside showing water uphill, i think liquid metal batteries see some promise,

but the cost and space is still enormous and not easily accepted by those

just scraping by, pushing water back uphill during excess generation still

is the most obvious battery, and the alternative energy locations are still far and few in between,

and more dependable generation on demand is still a demand.

very long term, like in another 200 years, i think solar can be a general solution

 

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29 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

@bristolboy : this video is produced by an engineer that is pro renewables,

because he is an engineer, he understands and explains the issue involved,

in a way that you can appreciate .

also beside showing water uphill, i think liquid metal batteries see some promise,

but the cost and space is still enormous and not easily accepted by those

just scraping by, pushing water back uphill during excess generation still

is the most obvious battery, and the alternative energy locations are still far and few in between,

and more dependable generation on demand is still a demand.

very long term, like in another 200 years, i think solar can be a general solution

 

Other than capital cost, pushing sea water uphill to a storage pond using wave powered pumps, which is used to power hydro generators is probably the most efficient way of generating electricity. It works all the time, not just at off peak times.

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1 hour ago, brokenbone said:

@bristolboy : this video is produced by an engineer that is pro renewables,

because he is an engineer, he understands and explains the issue involved,

in a way that you can appreciate .

also beside showing water uphill, i think liquid metal batteries see some promise,

but the cost and space is still enormous and not easily accepted by those

just scraping by, pushing water back uphill during excess generation still

is the most obvious battery, and the alternative energy locations are still far and few in between,

and more dependable generation on demand is still a demand.

very long term, like in another 200 years, i think solar can be a general solution

 

 

This video was very good. The energy storage problem is and has been real one with the renewables. 

 

I think the first aim should be to replace coal and gas plants with renewables as much as possible. This means that in current times, nuclear power is the best way to add base capacity to cope with energy production fluctuations. 

 

Once the energy storage problem is solved in 20-30 years, then it's time to phase down the nuclear power plants, if it's considered feasible at that time. 

 

Saltwater storage in higher ground also have it's losses in pumps as well as when the water is evaporated by sunshine. Not to forget that salt water inland is probably not good for fresh water sources and the surrounding environment. 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, TheDark said:

 

This video was very good. The energy storage problem is and has been real one with the renewables. 

 

I think the first aim should be to replace coal and gas plants with renewables as much as possible. This means that in current times, nuclear power is the best way to add base capacity to cope with energy production fluctuations. 

 

Once the energy storage problem is solved in 20-30 years, then it's time to phase down the nuclear power plants, if it's considered feasible at that time. 

 

Saltwater storage in higher ground also have it's losses in pumps as well as when the water is evaporated by sunshine. Not to forget that salt water inland is probably not good for fresh water sources and the surrounding environment. 

 

 

Only enough salt water would have to be stored in the event of calm seas reducing the amount being pumped up. It is possible to install a waterproof barrier to stop saltwater entering the ground.

Nuclear is the answer but too many would oppose it.

 

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