bristolboy Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, RickBradford said: That reads like a lame activist effort to conflate 'fossil fuels' with 'corruption' and help paint fossil fuels into the 'evil' category. Playground stuff. The common link, of course, is poverty. Poverty invites corruption and corruption perpetuates poverty, a cycle which has been a concern to international bodies for decades. Similarly, poor countries desperately need reliable cheap energy, and that means fossil fuels. Only the wealthy West can ask its citizens to pay twice or three times the necessary price of electricity by foisting wind and solar power on them. Hey. Wake up. The year is 2020. Not 2010. India Coal Power Is About To Crash: 65% Of Existing Coal Costs More Than New Wind And Solar King Coal’s reign in India is about to come crashing down . Coal supplied 80% of India’s total power mix in 2016-2017, but economics have flipped the country’s energy equation – new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants. https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/01/30/india-coal-power-is-about-to-crash-65-of-existing-coal-costs-more-than-new-wind-and-solar/#5afcb5d94c0f And this article is 2 years old. Solar and wind energy costs have continued to plummet since then. As does the cost of storage. And let me repeat in boldface part of what that article reports just to make sure you get it: new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants. India’s stranded assets: how government interventions are propping up coal power The five major (current and future) drivers of asset stranding in India’s coal power value chain are: the cost competitiveness of renewable energy alternatives; financial distress in distribution companies; air pollution regulation; water scarcity; and coal shortages. • A number of these drivers are already significantly impacting India’s power sector: 40 gigawatts of commissioned and under construction coal-fired power capacity are already ‘stressed’, which presents an ongoing systemic financial risk for the government and the financial system dominated by the Indian public sector. • The Government of India is intervening in coal power (across the value chain from coal mining to power production and distribution) in several ways, which include support in the form of an estimated ₹74,114 crore ($11.3 billion) in public finance, ₹13,960 crore ($2.1 billion) in national subsidies, and support equivalent to ₹24,724 crore ($3.8 billion) through policy postponement https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/12407.pdf 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brokenbone Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 9:00 AM, bristolboy said: Hey. Wake up. The year is 2020. Not 2010. India Coal Power Is About To Crash: 65% Of Existing Coal Costs More Than New Wind And Solar King Coal’s reign in India is about to come crashing down . Coal supplied 80% of India’s total power mix in 2016-2017, but economics have flipped the country’s energy equation – new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants. https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/01/30/india-coal-power-is-about-to-crash-65-of-existing-coal-costs-more-than-new-wind-and-solar/#5afcb5d94c0f And this article is 2 years old. Solar and wind energy costs have continued to plummet since then. As does the cost of storage. And let me repeat in boldface part of what that article reports just to make sure you get it: new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants. India’s stranded assets: how government interventions are propping up coal power The five major (current and future) drivers of asset stranding in India’s coal power value chain are: the cost competitiveness of renewable energy alternatives; financial distress in distribution companies; air pollution regulation; water scarcity; and coal shortages. • A number of these drivers are already significantly impacting India’s power sector: 40 gigawatts of commissioned and under construction coal-fired power capacity are already ‘stressed’, which presents an ongoing systemic financial risk for the government and the financial system dominated by the Indian public sector. • The Government of India is intervening in coal power (across the value chain from coal mining to power production and distribution) in several ways, which include support in the form of an estimated ₹74,114 crore ($11.3 billion) in public finance, ₹13,960 crore ($2.1 billion) in national subsidies, and support equivalent to ₹24,724 crore ($3.8 billion) through policy postponement https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/12407.pdf catch is you need them both if you want to mix in windmills, so twice the cost vs running on coal alone. energy is all about reliability, we cant make it a single day during winter without heating 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, brokenbone said: catch is you need them both if you want to mix in windmills, so twice the cost vs running on coal alone. energy is all about reliability, we cant make it a single day during winter without heating Once again, no links. And numbers from 2008? Wake up! The year is 2020. Now, as I understand it, Denmark is not exactly a nation with a tropical climate. Denmark Passes Magic 50% In Renewable Electricity Generation Milestone The national media outlet dr.dk reports that, for the first time ever, half of Denmark’s electricity consumption originated from renewable generation. Those are the data for 2019 totals supplied by energinet.dk. Wind dominated, with 47% of the green energy coming from wind turbines. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/05/denmark-passes-magic-50-in-renewable-electricity-generation-milestone/ Subsidy-Free Onshore Wind Gains Traction in Europe https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/subsidy-free-onshore-wind-gathers-pace-in-europe Shutdown of coal-fired plants in US saves lives and improves crop yields https://phys.org/news/2020-01-shutdown-coal-fired-crop-yields.html Solar Costs & Wind Costs So Low They’re Cheaper Than *Existing* Coal & Nuclear — Lazard LCOE Report https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/22/solar-costs-wind-costs-now-so-low-theyre-competitive-with-existing-coal-nuclear-lazard-lcoe-report/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TheDark Posted January 16, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, bristolboy said: Once again, no links. And numbers from 2008? Wake up! The year is 2020. Now, as I understand it, Denmark is not exactly a nation with a tropical climate. Denmark Passes Magic 50% In Renewable Electricity Generation Milestone The national media outlet dr.dk reports that, for the first time ever, half of Denmark’s electricity consumption originated from renewable generation. Those are the data for 2019 totals supplied by energinet.dk. Wind dominated, with 47% of the green energy coming from wind turbines. Denmark is moderately small country and can take advantage of the European electricity network. Denmark also can use offshore windmills to generate energy, once it's available. When the wind blows, it's all good. I guess in those times Denmark can export excess energy to other parts of Europe. But the problem is, when the wind doesn't blow and there is very little energy from the Sun. Typically these tend to happen, when the cold airmass comes from the north during winters. If Denmark wouldn't have other sources as base energy, very few people in Denmark would be happy. While it's great to produce energy from the wind and solar, we should never forget that we also really need the base energy. This can be either by burning coal, oil, natural gas or other pollutants. Or this can be also done with clean nuclear power, which is reliable and doesn't pollute the environment. Once we have either figured out lossless and cheap ways to store energy or have fusion energy available, fission power plants are the way to go. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cryingdick Posted January 16, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2020 On 1/7/2020 at 7:06 AM, earlinclaifornia said: That's why folks call it a cult. There's a groupthink that mirrors cult behavior. It's not their beliefs that matter, but whatever their leader believes. If he changes his belief 180 degrees then the whole cult changes their beliefs even if it's the opposite of a day ago. Liberals have their own nuttiness, but I'll give them this much, they can't stand any leader because no one could ever fit all of their often conflicting woke standards. But at least they have something like standards. The Trump cult has only one: what does Trump believe and whatever that is becomes their belief instantly. . You want to see cult like behavior look no further to the doomsayers with their newly found messiah Greta. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brokenbone Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 1 hour ago, bristolboy said: Once again, no links. And numbers from 2008? Wake up! The year is 2020. Now, as I understand it, Denmark is not exactly a nation with a tropical climate. Denmark Passes Magic 50% In Renewable Electricity Generation Milestone The national media outlet dr.dk reports that, for the first time ever, half of Denmark’s electricity consumption originated from renewable generation. Those are the data for 2019 totals supplied by energinet.dk. Wind dominated, with 47% of the green energy coming from wind turbines. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/05/denmark-passes-magic-50-in-renewable-electricity-generation-milestone/ Subsidy-Free Onshore Wind Gains Traction in Europe https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/subsidy-free-onshore-wind-gathers-pace-in-europe Shutdown of coal-fired plants in US saves lives and improves crop yields https://phys.org/news/2020-01-shutdown-coal-fired-crop-yields.html Solar Costs & Wind Costs So Low They’re Cheaper Than *Existing* Coal & Nuclear — Lazard LCOE Report https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/22/solar-costs-wind-costs-now-so-low-theyre-competitive-with-existing-coal-nuclear-lazard-lcoe-report/ coincidentally? denmark & germany has the most expensive electric, denmark may be able to swap power with sweden that has dependable nuke reactors & water power, but germany consume so much they need to provide the bulk on their own, which of course means they have to double up with either coal or russian gas for when nature takes its course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 3:00 PM, bristolboy said: Hey. Wake up. The year is 2020. Not 2010. India Coal Power Is About To Crash: 65% Of Existing Coal Costs More Than New Wind And Solar King Coal’s reign in India is about to come crashing down . Coal supplied 80% of India’s total power mix in 2016-2017, but economics have flipped the country’s energy equation – new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants. https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/01/30/india-coal-power-is-about-to-crash-65-of-existing-coal-costs-more-than-new-wind-and-solar/#5afcb5d94c0f And this article is 2 years old. Solar and wind energy costs have continued to plummet since then. As does the cost of storage. And let me repeat in boldface part of what that article reports just to make sure you get it: new renewable energy is now cheaper to build than running most existing coal-fired power plants. India’s stranded assets: how government interventions are propping up coal power The five major (current and future) drivers of asset stranding in India’s coal power value chain are: the cost competitiveness of renewable energy alternatives; financial distress in distribution companies; air pollution regulation; water scarcity; and coal shortages. • A number of these drivers are already significantly impacting India’s power sector: 40 gigawatts of commissioned and under construction coal-fired power capacity are already ‘stressed’, which presents an ongoing systemic financial risk for the government and the financial system dominated by the Indian public sector. • The Government of India is intervening in coal power (across the value chain from coal mining to power production and distribution) in several ways, which include support in the form of an estimated ₹74,114 crore ($11.3 billion) in public finance, ₹13,960 crore ($2.1 billion) in national subsidies, and support equivalent to ₹24,724 crore ($3.8 billion) through policy postponement https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/12407.pdf Soooo, that's a good thing. I don't think anyone is saying that pollution is a good thing and if India can generate enough power without using polluting methods that can only be good. However, Indian's problems are caused by too many people and ergo too many vehicles running on polluting fuel. I don't know how many oil powered vehicles there are in India but it must be many millions. IMO there is zero chance of enough of them being replaced by electric powered vehicles to make a difference, and even if there was, how would all the extra electricity be generated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said: Soooo, that's a good thing. I don't think anyone is saying that pollution is a good thing and if India can generate enough power without using polluting methods that can only be good. However, Indian's problems are caused by too many people and ergo too many vehicles running on polluting fuel. I don't know how many oil powered vehicles there are in India but it must be many millions. IMO there is zero chance of enough of them being replaced by electric powered vehicles to make a difference, and even if there was, how would all the extra electricity be generated? Tell me something, how informed is your opinion? Have you done even the most cursory research on the question? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brokenbone Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 hilarious letter from nils axel morner to president of maldives http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/maldives_letter.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Troll post removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 3 hours ago, bristolboy said: Tell me something, how informed is your opinion? Have you done even the most cursory research on the question? Are you saying that I'm wrong that less pollution is a good thing, or are you saying that India can convert all the millions of oil powered vehicles to electric, or are you saying there is enough alternative electricity to power all the electric vehicles? It would help if you were more specific in your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brokenbone Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 @bristolboy : this video is produced by an engineer that is pro renewables, because he is an engineer, he understands and explains the issue involved, in a way that you can appreciate . also beside showing water uphill, i think liquid metal batteries see some promise, but the cost and space is still enormous and not easily accepted by those just scraping by, pushing water back uphill during excess generation still is the most obvious battery, and the alternative energy locations are still far and few in between, and more dependable generation on demand is still a demand. very long term, like in another 200 years, i think solar can be a general solution 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 29 minutes ago, brokenbone said: @bristolboy : this video is produced by an engineer that is pro renewables, because he is an engineer, he understands and explains the issue involved, in a way that you can appreciate . also beside showing water uphill, i think liquid metal batteries see some promise, but the cost and space is still enormous and not easily accepted by those just scraping by, pushing water back uphill during excess generation still is the most obvious battery, and the alternative energy locations are still far and few in between, and more dependable generation on demand is still a demand. very long term, like in another 200 years, i think solar can be a general solution Other than capital cost, pushing sea water uphill to a storage pond using wave powered pumps, which is used to power hydro generators is probably the most efficient way of generating electricity. It works all the time, not just at off peak times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDark Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 1 hour ago, brokenbone said: @bristolboy : this video is produced by an engineer that is pro renewables, because he is an engineer, he understands and explains the issue involved, in a way that you can appreciate . also beside showing water uphill, i think liquid metal batteries see some promise, but the cost and space is still enormous and not easily accepted by those just scraping by, pushing water back uphill during excess generation still is the most obvious battery, and the alternative energy locations are still far and few in between, and more dependable generation on demand is still a demand. very long term, like in another 200 years, i think solar can be a general solution This video was very good. The energy storage problem is and has been real one with the renewables. I think the first aim should be to replace coal and gas plants with renewables as much as possible. This means that in current times, nuclear power is the best way to add base capacity to cope with energy production fluctuations. Once the energy storage problem is solved in 20-30 years, then it's time to phase down the nuclear power plants, if it's considered feasible at that time. Saltwater storage in higher ground also have it's losses in pumps as well as when the water is evaporated by sunshine. Not to forget that salt water inland is probably not good for fresh water sources and the surrounding environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 33 minutes ago, TheDark said: This video was very good. The energy storage problem is and has been real one with the renewables. I think the first aim should be to replace coal and gas plants with renewables as much as possible. This means that in current times, nuclear power is the best way to add base capacity to cope with energy production fluctuations. Once the energy storage problem is solved in 20-30 years, then it's time to phase down the nuclear power plants, if it's considered feasible at that time. Saltwater storage in higher ground also have it's losses in pumps as well as when the water is evaporated by sunshine. Not to forget that salt water inland is probably not good for fresh water sources and the surrounding environment. Only enough salt water would have to be stored in the event of calm seas reducing the amount being pumped up. It is possible to install a waterproof barrier to stop saltwater entering the ground. Nuclear is the answer but too many would oppose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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