Moving from UK to Thailand with Thai wife and kids - Visa questions

[donnacha]

17 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

My daughter attends Assumption here and I think it is about as good as she could get back in my home country.

She was lucky.

The expensive international school my step-daughter attended in Chiang Mai was laughably bad, despite supposedly being one of the best in the city. She happened to spend a few years of her early teens in the Emirates and Korea, and consequently her level of education was streets ahead of her fellow students.

She is not particularly studious, plenty of time wasted on Facebook and I've never seen her pick up a book at home, but she at least picked up the rudiments of self-driven learning and an awareness of the world beyond Thailand. By comparison, her classmates seemed so apathetic.

Now, a few years out of school, none seem to have any particular direction, just rich kids floating through second-rate universities, who will end up reluctantly doing as little as possible in their family businesses.

I don't know what it is exactly about the Thai education system, but even the supposedly good schools seem to suck the potential right out of kids. Just a few years exposure, at the right age, to non-Thai systems seems to have given my step-daughter a completely different approach to life.


 

Edited January 11, 2020 by donnacha

[oldcpu]

23 hours ago, Eibot said:

Also, maintaining a bank account outside of Thailand seem to be difficult. It's impossible in the UK, nor can I open one in The Netherlands without having an adress.

This can be daunting, until one learns what is available.

 

Some German banks allow international addresses, which is what I use.

 

Further, there are online accounts you can get in Europe (for use after you move to Thailand), which do provide many of the money transfer functions that you may want if you decide to move to Thailand.

 

For example Transferwise borderless account (  https://transferwise.com/ ) .  You need to initially open up this account from UK, Europe, USA, Australia or New Zealand.  ie open it up BEFORE you move to Thailand.  All transactions can be done online.  If you go for the Transferwise credit card, I do recommend thou you have a friend's address in either UK, Europe, USA, Australia or New Zealand, in case the card needs to be cancelled/resent, as they can only send the card to one of those countries.  Also a caution:  Transferwise is not a bank, so the amount in the account is not insured.

 

Another account to consider (instead of TransferWise) is N26 ( https://n26.com/en-eu )  .  I have not used this account myself, but I am told it has the additional advantage that it is a German registered bank, and hence funds insured up to a certain amount.  Edit:  N26 may require European residency be maintained < not sure > so this should be checked into.  I think maximum of 18-months residency outside of Europe.

 

Both accounts allow money to be transferred internationally at competitive low fees.

Edited January 11, 2020 by oldcpu
Qualification wrt N26 and residency outside of Europe

[FritsSikkink]

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 3:02 PM, Eibot said:

Hi Joe,

 

Thank you for very much for your reply. I'm (or we) are permanent residence in the UK. Have been for the past 5 years. I have seen the financial evidence, but it still seems a little vague to me. How much would they expect, and from how long back. I will try to give the embassy a ring today in regards to that. In regards to the 40k baht income, why would the Dutch embassy need to proof that. And how would they? For the past five years, I had a UK bank account where my invoices are paid into. My plan is to open a Thai bank account as soon as I land in Thailand, and receive my invoices straight into my Thai bank. The invoices are from Dutch and Belgium commercial companies. 

 

In regards to taxes, could I get in trouble if they ask where my funds are coming from, and I honestly tell them I work online in Thailand? 

 

Thanks for your help again!

You don't tell them that you work online as you would need a work permit when you work while living in Thailand. You can't get one as a freelancer. You can setup a company, You own 49 % of the shares, your wife 51%. As you are married you can get away with employing 2 Thais instead of 4. Can be a secretary and cleaner for minimum wage. They can be family.   

[oldcpu]

23 hours ago, Eibot said:

Also, maintaining a bank account outside of Thailand seem to be difficult. It's impossible in the UK, nor can I open one in The Netherlands without having an adress.

Further to my above post (and others about Transferwise and N26) here is a page that notes some of the various online "virtual" banking that is possible in todays day and age:  https://www.goodbyebanks.com/best-virtual-banks/

[Bullie]

19 hours ago, Eibot said:

Hi Bullie,

 

Thank you very much for your advise. Good to hear that someone in a similar situation never had problems. Rent money might be a good excuse if they ever asked. Besides that, we are also planning to move back to Europe wants the kids reach Uni age. Saving in Thailand and buying a house cash in The Netherlands would be nice. Housing cost in The Netherlands are thought the roof, and getting an MVV visa is rather difficult. Maybe I follow your path later in life. Thanks for the advice.

We went to Holland under the Chavez-rule. Check it out! Wife is now doing the inburgering voluntarily for free, (Amsterdam),  is allowed to work, and after 3 years we will change the visa to MVV, no problem.

 

[Bullie]

Going to the Netherlands can also be done on EU rules, since you are Dutch, and have lived abroad. Your wife does NOT have to go the MVV path, you can just come back home and bring your family. They (IND) will ask for proof of residence etc.etc. in the U.K., so do keep every snippet of paper you have testifying to that (from Tesco's to gasbills). So no inburgering, no hassle! Look into it!

[ThomasThBKK]

10 hours ago, donnacha said:

You would need to research this, but I believe that any money that has been in your possession outside Thailand for at least a year is not taxable when you bring it into Thailand. I have never, however, heard of anyone being asked to prove a particular transfer is money that has been in their possession for a year.

It's actually the calender year till 31. december, you can move your money in starting 1 january.

 

It's a non issue as long as you have savings in an offshore account as then you basically have a buffer and you move in "old" money.

 

Strictly speaking he would have to pay income taxes in th as he works from here, but the reality is he is not allowed to own a company here anyway, so what can he do? Nothing.

 

Thailand can as always just blame themselves for this loss. 

 

10 hours ago, donnacha said:

Personally, if I had kids, I would stay in Europe, mainly because air pollution has such a disproportionate impact on growing bodies. I can understand, however, the emotional pull on your wife to be close as her mother nears the end.

 

Yeah or alternatively the islands and phuket, while not perfect still way better than northern thailand and bangkok.

[Momofarang]

On 1/10/2020 at 7:53 PM, cabanlit said:

I'm just looking at your normal income - £2300.

 

With a wife and 2 kids and yourself, that's not a lot coming in.

 

You need to research costs better. Look at costs for you - home rental, utility bills, transport, health insurance. Costs for wife - 'pocket money', 'family support'. Then the biggest, costs for kids - education, social costs, and their health.

 

Just because they're Thai, don't expect them to use the health scheme for Thais - you won't be putting your family in front of a Thai hospital or doctor, it'll always be 'private'.

 

And, of course, trips back to Europe and assorted other holidays, perhaps around Asia.

Highly pertinent. I am in Issan with two kids too, on USD 7000 monthly we aren't really struggling, but just. We have a western life style, as I feel the need to isolate us from the "rubbish dump" kind of environment surrounding us. Reckon that western style living is probably cheaper in larger city. An please look around on the forum to get a feel regarding the current climate at immigration an elsewhere. Wish you luck, go west young man.

[BritManToo]

On 1/10/2020 at 4:19 AM, Eibot said:

After reading into it, my understanding is that I would need to apply for a Non-Immigrant O Spouse visa here in the UK, and extend that into a marriage visa in Thailand. Is this correct?

Nah, you could just visit HCMC or Suvannahkhet and buy a 1 year multi entry Non-O for around $200.

Much easier, no financial requirements at all.

Edited January 12, 2020 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

17 hours ago, marin said:

Can you afford 500,000 -800000 baht  a year for an international school? 

My son goes to the Amphur school, 12k/year, it's fine and he's happy.

[BritManToo]

On 1/10/2020 at 7:53 PM, cabanlit said:

I'm just looking at your normal income - £2300.

 

With a wife and 2 kids and yourself, that's not a lot coming in.

 

You need to research costs better. Look at costs for you - home rental, utility bills, transport, health insurance. Costs for wife - 'pocket money', 'family support'. Then the biggest, costs for kids - education, social costs, and their health.

 

Just because they're Thai, don't expect them to use the health scheme for Thais - you won't be putting your family in front of a Thai hospital or doctor, it'll always be 'private'.

 

And, of course, trips back to Europe and assorted other holidays, perhaps around Asia.

I disagree on all points

I live on 1,000 pounds/month, and that includes the repayments on a 3 bedroom house near Chiang Mai.

Me, gf and two kids, oldest is at University, education is very low cost.

Health care is free for the family, local hospital is fine (but there is a bit of queuing involved), and almost free for me (I use the same hospital).

 

Learn to live a local lifestyle and it's cheap as chips to live here.

[marin]

21 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Not if you can afford to pay for a private school. My daughter attends Assumption here and I think it is about as good as she could get back in my home country. Costs 50 to 60k baht a year.

Agree Joe we sent ours the last 4 years to Harrow and they both got into the UC system with one in Berkeley the other in SB. Was hard financially  but its now over and they are both living and working in the states with good jobs. But sadly most dont have the bucks. A game changer..

 

Brit man I am happy are happy but "we" I did not want the kids in a Thai university. Perhaps thats a bit much, but it worked out for us and them..

Edited January 12, 2020 by marin

[ChaiyaTH]

On 1/10/2020 at 7:57 PM, Eibot said:

I'm around 65k last year, and 72k pounds per year the year before that. The only invoice that is consistent is the 2300 pounds per month. The rest comes in batches here and there. I'm planning to live in Isaan.. We have worked it out, but that doesn't seem to be an issue. we're a simple family ????

If you could live of half of that, you can season the funds for a year and pay minimal taxes.
Also in that case, just deposit the 400K baht. Should be possible with that income in TH, solves the monthly income drama.

Dutch embassy won't certify your income if it is unknown / outside Netherlands.

Edited January 12, 2020 by ChaiyaTH

[steve187]

On 1/10/2020 at 4:33 PM, Eibot said:

Hi Chilly,

 

Thank you for your response. 

 

Do you mean the Dutch Embassy? I don't understand how such a certificate works... I have nothing to do with the Dutch government, and the dutch government has nothing to do with my business. How would they be able to verify my income? Also, maintaining a bank account outside of Thailand seem to be difficult. It's impossible in the UK, nor can I open one in The Netherlands without having an adress. Luckily I have pretty good control over my invoices, and have agreed to be paid every 23rd of every month. This has been going well without issues for the past two years.  In other words, I would get an international payment every month on the 23rd into my bank account..

open a transferwise account, they do a borderless account - https://transferwise.com/

[ubonjoe]

I have just removed a long string of bickering and baiting posts by 3 members. Time to end it or formal warnings will be given.

[UKresonant]

Lot's of different options above, but I have to think I would keep the income set-up outside Thailand, whether in a company, or an isolated account transferring your dividends into Thailand on a regular basis. So everything is set-up and will function whether inside or outside Thailand.

Just bring in what you need to have sufficient means, and pay tax on some of the dividends (50k/m) and nil on the historic savings component. (Have not planned or calculated, but that would be my objective. but the banks do not make it easy).

 

The son has been in primary education in Thailand (Thai programme, non-Gov. school) supplemented by private, one to one tuition classes, and it has been OK. But for most of that time I still worked in the UK, using every hour of leave to come to Thailand. 

 

But once finished Primary, ( a recent change of plan) he will be enrolled in a UK secondary, so the son will be going in the opposite direction!

 

I can think of a few other things to consider, like have you got access to .Gov websites( UK verify) and get your NI records etc and for the wife if she has been getting child benefit (with pension credits). You may have not have 10 years in yet, for state pension, but best to keep a record. you need to get a password while still in the UK, part of it looks up financial details. But these are more like Home country subjects, which you may have covered already...You may be back in the UK sometime and get the 10 years+, for a state pension in the distant future ????

 

 

 

 

[the guest]

If you intend to work in Thailand, you will need a limited company,  non-b,  and a work permit,  and must employ at least 3 Thai citizens

 

Better to move to Holland, where your able to operate on equal terms. Then when you have some summer holiday go and visit Thailand for a few months. It's a cheaper solution and more practical.

[Eibot]

On 1/11/2020 at 3:12 AM, overherebc said:

To the OP.

By far the simplest way is to put 400,000 Thai baht into the bank and leave it there. Much easier than going through the hoops on income per month/year etc.

You can transfer in your living money as and when you need it, Open a second acount for that purpose.

A single entry O should not be a problem as you are married then you convert to a one year extension using the banked 400,000. ( You can put a bit in and take a bit out over the year but just ensure it stays 400,000 plus ).

For the first year just do your IT thing on line and do it from home and don't mention it to anyone.

Your extension for a year will require 90 day reporting to your local Imm' office and most likely you will get a visit at home from Imm' so they are happy about the marraige being real. 

Use the first year to get your head around the rules and reg's on what's there re' tax and WP but don't ask officials or Imm' (big can of worms ????)

Best of luck.

Edit 

Your wife should enter Thailand on her Thai passport if she still has one.

 

Thanks for the advise. Plan is now to get a Non-Immigrant O with multiple entry, and then get my 400K sorted :).

[Eibot]

On 1/11/2020 at 8:15 AM, oldcpu said:

This can be daunting, until one learns what is available.

 

Some German banks allow international addresses, which is what I use.

 

Further, there are online accounts you can get in Europe (for use after you move to Thailand), which do provide many of the money transfer functions that you may want if you decide to move to Thailand.

 

For example Transferwise borderless account (  https://transferwise.com/ ) .  You need to initially open up this account from UK, Europe, USA, Australia or New Zealand.  ie open it up BEFORE you move to Thailand.  All transactions can be done online.  If you go for the Transferwise credit card, I do recommend thou you have a friend's address in either UK, Europe, USA, Australia or New Zealand, in case the card needs to be cancelled/resent, as they can only send the card to one of those countries.  Also a caution:  Transferwise is not a bank, so the amount in the account is not insured.

 

Another account to consider (instead of TransferWise) is N26 ( https://n26.com/en-eu )  .  I have not used this account myself, but I am told it has the additional advantage that it is a German registered bank, and hence funds insured up to a certain amount.  Edit:  N26 may require European residency be maintained < not sure > so this should be checked into.  I think maximum of 18-months residency outside of Europe.

 

Both accounts allow money to be transferred internationally at competitive low fees.

Hi OldCPU,

 

I really Appriciated the advise. Yesterday I have openened both a borderless account and N26 Bankaccount. Although I think I will be fine with just the trasferwise account (and credit card). So many online possibilities anno 2020 in the banking world. Who knew!

[Eibot]

On 1/11/2020 at 4:22 PM, Bullie said:

We went to Holland under the Chavez-rule. Check it out! Wife is now doing the inburgering voluntarily for free, (Amsterdam),  is allowed to work, and after 3 years we will change the visa to MVV, no problem.

 

Hi Bullie,

 

My wife is in the UK on her EEA right, and can do the similar route (surinder Singe) to go back to The Netherlands. At this point in our life, we are just not interested in moving back to The Netherlands. Maybe later on when the kids go to secondary school (middelbare school). 

[Eibot]

On 1/12/2020 at 1:13 AM, Momofarang said:

Highly pertinent. I am in Issan with two kids too, on USD 7000 monthly we aren't really struggling, but just. We have a western life style, as I feel the need to isolate us from the "rubbish dump" kind of environment surrounding us. Reckon that western style living is probably cheaper in larger city. An please look around on the forum to get a feel regarding the current climate at immigration an elsewhere. Wish you luck, go west young man.

I appreciate your comment. Why would you live in Isaan if you want to life a Western lifestyle and think it's a rubbish dump?

 

Seems to me your on the wrong continent ????

[Eibot]

On 1/12/2020 at 1:16 AM, BritManToo said:

Nah, you could just visit HCMC or Suvannahkhet and buy a 1 year multi entry Non-O for around $200.

Much easier, no financial requirements at all.

This is my plan now. Getting the Non-O which will give me a year to sort out a house and 400K!

[Eibot]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:54 PM, UKresonant said:

Lot's of different options above, but I have to think I would keep the income set-up outside Thailand, whether in a company, or an isolated account transferring your dividends into Thailand on a regular basis. So everything is set-up and will function whether inside or outside Thailand.

Just bring in what you need to have sufficient means, and pay tax on some of the dividends (50k/m) and nil on the historic savings component. (Have not planned or calculated, but that would be my objective. but the banks do not make it easy).

 

The son has been in primary education in Thailand (Thai programme, non-Gov. school) supplemented by private, one to one tuition classes, and it has been OK. But for most of that time I still worked in the UK, using every hour of leave to come to Thailand. 

 

But once finished Primary, ( a recent change of plan) he will be enrolled in a UK secondary, so the son will be going in the opposite direction!

 

I can think of a few other things to consider, like have you got access to .Gov websites( UK verify) and get your NI records etc and for the wife if she has been getting child benefit (with pension credits). You may have not have 10 years in yet, for state pension, but best to keep a record. you need to get a password while still in the UK, part of it looks up financial details. But these are more like Home country subjects, which you may have covered already...You may be back in the UK sometime and get the 10 years+, for a state pension in the distant future ????

 

 

 

 

Beware that the schools in the UK are also has a big variety of quality. We currently live in the North East (flying to TH on 29/01) and I don't see a bright future for the youth here at all. School quality is low, and the job market saturated with young adults having expensive Bachelors, that are of no worth since everyone has got a degree. I have racked up 25k of student debt in The Netherlands (you are forced to borrow money from the government if you can't pay school), and have never even been asked to show my degree for a job position. Even within Professional Services and IT automation. Specialisation is the key these days.

 

Of course the Thai education system is still bad compared to that of the UK, but as a parent I think you have a big responsibility as well. Questioning authority is a no-go in Thailand, and this is the only thing we do in the west :).

 

From 2010 - 2015 I was living in Isaan and working as a teacher, and I can definitely say that the youth (people) seem to be a lot happier in Thailand. We stopped the UK benefits, and don't think we will be back here to live. The plan would be to move back to the Netherlands for secondary school in 4-5 years from now. Plans can change of course ???? Thanks for your advice!

[Eibot]

11 hours ago, the guest said:

If you intend to work in Thailand, you will need a limited company,  non-b,  and a work permit,  and must employ at least 3 Thai citizens

 

Better to move to Holland, where your able to operate on equal terms. Then when you have some summer holiday go and visit Thailand for a few months. It's a cheaper solution and more practical.

Hi guest,

 

Yesterday I have had a call with a Thai immigration lawyer. Basically, if you are doing physical work or work with Thai companies, you indeed need a work permit. Digital Nomads are not in breach of the Alien Employement act, thus a WP in not enforceable. Because there is no definition for remote workers, it doesn't make it by definition legal, but also not illegal. 

 

Living in The Netherlands is by far a more expensive option, plus we have no interest (yet) in moving back. Probably when the kids go to secondary school ????

[ChaiyaTH]

To the OP: Just ignore those on this forum talking about the work permit nonsense, there are ten thousands of people doing digital work without a WP, many married ones as well, without any issue. Often it are the ones who are scared easily, and did waste money on setting up a company (for no good reason) + spend a lot on it monthly, who will tell you to do the same, to confirm their stupid move in the first place.

They even raided a co-working space once when my friends where there, no problems at all, they just wanted to see valid visa's. 
Hi-so owners of several co-working spaces have confirmed this as well. But on this forum they keep playing the ''it is illegal and get a WP game''. 

It is simply a grey area, as long you mind your own Online business with customers abroad, you should be fine.

Edited January 15, 2020 by ChaiyaTH

[Eibot]

47 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

To the OP: Just ignore those on this forum talking about the work permit nonsense, there are ten thousands of people doing digital work without a WP, many married ones as well, without any issue. Often it are the ones who are scared easily, and did waste money on setting up a company (for no good reason) + spend a lot on it monthly, who will tell you to do the same, to confirm their stupid move in the first place.

They even raided a co-working space once when my friends where there, no problems at all, they just wanted to see valid visa's. 
Hi-so owners of several co-working spaces have confirmed this as well. But on this forum they keep playing the ''it is illegal and get a WP game''. 

It is simply a grey area, as long you mind your own Online business with customers abroad, you should be fine.

Hi Chaiya,

 

Thanks for the reply. That's the message I have gotten as well. I had a call with an immigration lawyer (thai) the day before yesterday, and he basically confirmed that it's in a grey area, and that Thailand is shooting itself in the foot by not giving certain freelancers an option. I'm married, so not be working on a tourist visa and will see if I can get a Tax number in the future. A lot of people here are talking about staying on the right side of the law, and that people should not take advantage of a grey area. Yet when it comes to prostitution in Thailand, it becomes really silent ???? 

[jackdd]

21 minutes ago, Eibot said:

I had a call with an immigration lawyer (thai) the day before yesterday, and he basically confirmed that it's in a grey area, and that Thailand is shooting itself in the foot by not giving certain freelancers an option.

Working for a foreign company / business can be considered a grey area. But you plan to work without having such a foreign company, so effectively you are running a business in Thailand, and you won't pay taxes, so you will definitely be breaking at least two laws.

[Eibot]

16 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Working for a foreign company / business can be considered a grey area. But you plan to work without having such a foreign company, so effectively you are running a business in Thailand, and you won't pay taxes, so you will definitely be breaking at least two laws.

Can't break a law that doesn't exist. And I will pay taxes. This tax year I will be detaxing from UK and next tax year I will try to pay my taxes in TH.

[jackdd]

1 minute ago, Eibot said:

Can't break a law that doesn't exist.

You think Thailand doesn't have a law which says that you must register a business if you run a business?

 

4 minutes ago, Eibot said:

This tax year I will be detaxing from UK and next tax year I will try to pay my taxes in TH.

As long as your business location can be considered to be in the UK you are in the grey area.

The moment you cut all ties with the UK and this can't be considered your business location anymore and you do work in Thailand you are 100% illegal.

 

I think you don't fully understand the grey area part yet.

The grey area is that you have a business in another country, do work for this business while in Thailand, but because your business is abroad (and you get your money there, your clients are abroad and so on) this is not considered as working in Thailand.

The moment you don't have this business in another country you are probably breaking dozens of laws.

[Eibot]

28 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You think Thailand doesn't have a law which says that you must register a business if you run a business?

 

As long as your business location can be considered to be in the UK you are in the grey area.

The moment you cut all ties with the UK and this can't be considered your business location anymore and you do work in Thailand you are 100% illegal.

 

I think you don't fully understand the grey area part yet.

The grey area is that you have a business in another country, do work for this business while in Thailand, but because your business is abroad (and you get your money there, your clients are abroad and so on) this is not considered as working in Thailand.

The moment you don't have this business in another country you are probably breaking dozens of laws.

as mentioned above, this is what the Thai immigration lawyer said that I called. If this is incorrect I want my 4500 baht back.

 

I don't think you understand what a sole-trader or freelancer is. Yes, I will be receiving my money on a EU account, and will transfer this to my Thai bank account when needed. However, I don't need a business to do what I do. As a freelancer you don't need a LTD, B.V. AG or whatever it is called in your home-country. There is nothing that separates a Freelancer from a regular person, expect the fact that they are required to pay tax in the country that they reside in. Problem in Thailand at this moment is that they don't have a solution for this (yet). 

 

Again this is not me trying to be a smart-ass, but this is the information that I directly received from a Thai Immigration lawyer. What else do you want me to do?